The Leather Pouch Peace Dollar Hoard (314 Hoard) and CAC

U1chicago

I recall several references to the so-called "Leather Pouch Hoard" of Peace Dollars. All were toned and in older NGC holders with the cert number starting with "314"...there has been plenty of debate regarding if these were AT (or accelerated) and their standing in the market. I found it interesting when I ran into one today with a CAC sticker. It brought $423.62 with the fee at GC tonight.
Looking back at some older posts, there were mentions of other Peace Dollars from this hoard also getting a CAC sticker. So what is the current thought process on these coins? Is it still split? Does CAC approving some assuage any doubts?

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1335138/1924-Peace-Silver-Dollar-NGC-MS-64-CAC-OH-Toned

NickelMike

I like a bit of toning on my coins but that is not a good looking coin IMO.

golden

That is an ugly coin.

BryceM

As toned Peace dollars go, it looks nice enough to me. Maybe it's not a gorgeous stunner, but it's not bad either. The coin demonstrates pretty surfaces and good apparent luster.

braddick

That toning over lustrous surfaces? Pretty.
That toning over muted surfaces? Bland.

emeraldATV

In my eye there's no bling (Colors in a rainbow ? ) or maybe it's a reflex on my part processing rust on metal.
Although, it's interesting, and this is how we do it.
I,m happy for your conquest. Now lets here your best jungle call.

Lazybones

Lazybones

Just kidding. I actually like the looks of that coin. I'd love to own it. But, to each his own. Nice score!

U1chicago

@Lazybones said:
Just kidding. I actually like the looks of that coin. I'd love to own it. But, to each his own. Nice score!

I did not buy it; I was just watching the auction.

[Deleted User]

If this is the type of coin you like then all I can say is congratulations and thank you for sharing it with us.
They are all unique and special in there own way!

Namvet69

I have a tendency of looking thru the toning and analyze the quality of the strike and lack of signs of wear. Thanks for sharing. Peace Roy

johnny9434

Nice coin but not for me, jmo

coastaljerseyguy

To answer your question I do not think accelerated or AT as the toning is definitely not a plus nor appear to hide anything wrong with coin. Looks like a 64 but wouldn't overspend to get it.

ricko

While not a coin I would purchase, the tarnish does not appear AT... That being said, not all AT coins can be visually identified. Tarnish is tarnish. Cheers, RickO

Shane6596

If you posted those pics as a GTG, i wonder how far off the guesses would have been?

I, myself have trouble seeing through "heavy" toning in pics. I would have been in the AU58 area.

The more i look at it, i don't see any wear, just nicks, and softness. Confusing.

oih82w8

Leather bag storage huh?

Not a big fan of the OP coin. But if we all liked the same...it would be boring.

gtstang

I own this one which is pcgs cac. I bought it off ebay years ago from someone that got it off great collections. It may be from the same hoard you reference. It has a toned but muted look. It also shows the same die clashing on the reverse.

PhilLynott

@braddick said:
That toning over lustrous surfaces? Pretty.
That toning over muted surfaces? Bland.

Exactly! Luster is everything (to me I could stop the sentence there) on toned coins. It's why I could never buy one at a huge premium from pictures.

coastaljerseyguy

@braddick said:
That toning over lustrous surfaces? Pretty.
That toning over muted surfaces? Bland.

Agree and the 24P Peace in general had only an average luster, with Highfill noting many having that 'orange peel' effect that I can see on both coins above, although the OP's reverse appears to have better luster, not so for the obverse. If this leather toning was only on 24's may not amount to much aesthetics wise.

split37

As a toned Peace collector, I consider the 314XXX hoard to be naturally toned. I have a folder saved for every 314XXX coin that has ever crossed the auction block. Of these, maybe 2 coins are in the exceptional (semi-monster) range. Most of the rest of the collection is pleasant and some examples are even terminal. Here's an example of one of the better coins from that collection -

jerseycat101

I am firmly in the camp that these coins were "helped" in some way.

They've all toned in the same color palette, and that color palette is unique to any other peace dollar I've ever seen.

And sure, maybe the help came in the form of a leather purse, and one could argue that they are both MA and NT.

I, however, don't like them. They tend to have darker, earthy colors with an oil-slick look. I just don't think they're attractive enough to collect at their premiums.

Cougar1978

Amazed what it went for. I find it really ugly if not horribly damaged by the tarnish. On first glance looks like it was in a fire.

The seller has to be delighted with CAC CPG $101 and it went for abt $424. As far as it’s CAC approval it is what it is and would not change my opinion of the coin.

What I wonder is did it look like that when NGC slabbed it or did it just darken / tarnish over time getting that look.

marcmoish

Glad @ricko kept his comments to himself, so far.

But seriously, I think you did OK, I personally don't love it but it has what I can see as a cool newp.
Not for everyone, but not a dud at all imho.

U1chicago

@marcmoish said:
Glad @ricko kept his comments to himself, so far.

But seriously, I think you did OK, I personally don't love it but it has what I can see as a cool newp.
Not for everyone, but not a dud at all imho.

Just to clarify, I did not buy the coin. I was just watching it on GC.

cameonut2011

I’m Leary of any coin that needs a story to justify its existence. And I think the pieces are ugly to boot.

ricko

@marcmoish... I commented early on.... Sorry to disappoint you... Cheers, RickO

Catbert

@cameonut2011 said:
I’m Leary of any coin that needs a story to justify its existence. And I think the pieces are ugly to boot.

Timothy Leary said….oh no…..

marcmoish

@ricko said:
@marcmoish... I commented early on.... Sorry to disappoint you... Cheers, RickO

Yes you did, losing my mind 🤦‍♂️pardon me, and duly noted.

GRANDAM

@ricko said:
While not a coin I would purchase, the tarnish does not appear AT... That being said, not all AT coins can be visually identified. Tarnish is tarnish. Cheers, RickO

---

RickO's new tag line,,,,,,
Tarnish is tarnish.

124Spider

My "current thoughts" on the matter:

1. I don't like that look at all. Generally speaking, I don't like "toned" coins.
2. I don't care whether a coin has been "artificially toned" or not. And I don't understand why the distinction is made. Two coins could look substantially identical, with one "naturally toned" (whatever that means), and the other deemed to be "artificially toned." It seems to me to be a distinction without a difference. If there is a market for toned coins, why should it matter how it got that way?

drfish

My 314 coin

1northcoin

@coastaljerseyguy said:
To answer your question I do not think accelerated or AT as the toning is definitely not a plus nor appear to hide anything wrong with coin. Looks like a 64 but wouldn't overspend to get it.

If being in the likely AT hoard otherwise taints the coin then it looks like CAC was not aware of it. Of course a CAC sticker only means it is consistent with the assigned grade so perhaps toning is not a consideration one way or the other for CAC authentication. I have never sent a coin to CAC so I really don't know if there is some unwritten requirement that AT coins be called out or declined.

Have to say the toning looks uncannily similar to a recent Morgan acquisition of mine. (Apologies for the low quality iPhone photos.)

Bochiman

@1northcoin said:

@coastaljerseyguy said:

If being in the likely AT hoard otherwise taints the coin then it looks like CAC was not aware of it. Of course a CAC sticker only means it is consistent with the assigned grade so perhaps toning is not a consideration one way or the other for CAC authentication.

Untrue, according to a discussion with JA when I sent some PCGS coins to him to CAC. A couple IHCs that were toned didn't sticker and he told me, on the phone, that, while he agreed they were NT, he didn't like the toning and so didn't sticker them.
He had no issues with the grade, and didn't think the coins were AT, but still no sticker. He also said that he had been, at that time at least, pretty picky on toned copper.

This was at least 10 years ago, just for a spot in time reference.

Edited to add: He did sticker most of the toned IHCs. It was only a couple that he didn't and their toning was a bit more dark

TomB

@1northcoin, CAC rejects coins they believe are AT.

Regardless, if the Pi dollars (314 series) are the coins I recall seeing raw, then scores and scores of these popped up at a local show one month in the 1990s and the dealer selling them made no mention of any story and only said "pretty sells" when several of us looked at the coins and went "hmmmmm....."

1northcoin

@Bochiman said:

@1northcoin said:

@coastaljerseyguy said:

If being in the likely AT hoard otherwise taints the coin then it looks like CAC was not aware of it. Of course a CAC sticker only means it is consistent with the assigned grade so perhaps toning is not a consideration one way or the other for CAC authentication.

... according to a discussion with JA when I sent some PCGS coins to him to CAC. A couple IHCs that were toned didn't sticker and he told me, on the phone, that, while he agreed they were NT, he didn't like the toning and so didn't sticker them.
He had no issues with the grade, and didn't think the coins were AT, but still no sticker. He also said that he had been, at that time at least, pretty picky on toned copper.

This was at least 10 years ago, just for a spot in time reference.

Edited to add: He did sticker most of the toned IHCs. It was only a couple that he didn't and their toning was a bit more dark

@TomB said:
@1northcoin, CAC rejects coins they believe are AT.

Regardless, if the Pi dollars (314 series) are the coins I recall seeing raw, then scores and scores of these popped up at a local show one month in the 1990s and the dealer selling them made no mention of any story and only said "pretty sells" when several of us looked at the coins and went "hmmmmm....."

Thanks for the info.