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There will be a new sticker service for graded world coins

bidaskbidask Posts: 13,818 ✭✭✭✭✭

Someone told me o:)

I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




Comments

  • StorkStork Posts: 5,205 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not WINGS? I was wondering if that was still a thing.


  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It’ll probably go the way of WINGS.

    Does anyone really care?

  • Bob13Bob13 Posts: 1,412 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am curious. But as above, how would this be different from WINGS?

    My current "Box of 20"

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,818 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2023 3:02PM

    @Bob13 said:
    I am curious. But as above, how would this be different from WINGS?

    I not sure if Wings is still active ….
    I thought they were good .

    To answer your question…

    It will be the person reviewing the coin and stickering if it meets his criteria

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,668 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ot?

    Who might that be?

    Hopefully that was not a typo...

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,818 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2023 3:06PM

    @coinkat said:
    Ot?

    Who might that be?

    Let’s have some fun with this before I reveal the name …

    Name 3 numismatists you think worthy enough to use a sticker for your world coins ?

    If you can only think of two or even one please do that 😊

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • neildrobertsonneildrobertson Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2023 3:35PM

    I honestly don't think there are any 3 people that are qualified to sticker all world coins.

    What subset of world coins even warrants stickering?

    IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
    "Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me

  • StorkStork Posts: 5,205 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That would be tough to get everything. I mean, ancients too. I have a couple of WINGS stickered coins and they are indeed pretty darn beautiful. I'll see if I can dig up photos.


  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @neildrobertson said:
    I honestly don't think there are any 3 people that are qualified to sticker all world coins.

    What subset of world coins even warrants stickering?

    Do they technically grade differently that any other coin?

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,833 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @neildrobertson said:
    I honestly don't think there are any 3 people that are qualified to sticker all world coins.

    What subset of world coins even warrants stickering?

    It depends on the buyer's level of expertise. For some buyers, all coins warrant stickering. For others, stickers are useless.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • RexfordRexford Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2023 3:18AM

    @Boosibri said:

    @neildrobertson said:
    I honestly don't think there are any 3 people that are qualified to sticker all world coins.

    What subset of world coins even warrants stickering?

    Do they technically grade differently that any other coin?

    US coins have a limited age and range of striking methods. Grading world coins requires a broad knowledge of how to approach coins struck using multiple different methods (meaning you should have an understanding of the hammer method, roller presses, various screw presses (flywheel etc), edging and collar techniques, steam presses, etc) and to different qualities (for example, a Penny of Stephen can be struck almost flat, while a Penny of Edward I can have a high level of detail), the standards typical for different mints and eras and that distinguish a business strike from a proof or specimen, and should take into account age and the acceptable level of cleaning/environmental damage/etc for individual types of coins (for example, a 5 Guineas may exhibit a greater amount of cleaning than a Elizabeth II sovereign to qualify for a straight grade, and a medieval Spanish billon Cornado may be expected to have a certain amount of Environmental damage). I do not feel that there is any one person outside of the grading services who comes close to qualifying as a trustworthy and consistent source of grading opinion on every type of world coin, and would not consider any such sticker to raise my valuation of a world coin.

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,818 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Redford I think you bring up some excellent points ….

    Certainly on the examples you gave ….

    The idea behind the success of CAC in my opinion was the numismatist behind the idea who created CAC and US coins were minted from these modern processes

    Have you ever heard of PQ stickers ?

    https://www.pqapproved.com/why-pq/

    Now Barry Stuppler is a fine and successful coin dealer and I believe can certainly grade US coins but when it came to competing as “sticker “ service that service had already caught on in the US coin marketplace with John Albanese CAC
    sticker service ( who is now transitioning into a full grading service from what I understand.

    Now CAC has never promoted themselves to sticker foreign coins …
    WINGS gave it a shot but as I mentioned not sure how active they remain .

    It seems these type of stickering services need real staying power until what they provide catches on like CAC did for US coins .

    What I heard was PQ sticker service might be resurrecting itself in stickering coins again as a service ……perhaps because CAC is transitioning to a grading service

    https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/cac-grading-service-planned-for-start-in-2023

    …..only this time they will include an approver of PCGS and NGC world coins as well!

    Ever heard of John Dannreuther?

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bidask said:
    Redford I think you bring up some excellent points ….

    Certainly on the examples you gave ….

    The idea behind the success of CAC in my opinion was the numismatist behind the idea who created CAC and US coins were minted from these modern processes

    Have you ever heard of PQ stickers ?

    https://www.pqapproved.com/why-pq/

    Now Barry Stuppler is a fine and successful coin dealer and I believe can certainly grade US coins but when it came to competing as “sticker “ service that service had already caught on in the US coin marketplace with John Albanese CAC
    sticker service ( who is now transitioning into a full grading service from what I understand.

    Now CAC has never promoted themselves to sticker foreign coins …
    WINGS gave it a shot but as I mentioned not sure how active they remain .

    It seems these type of stickering services need real staying power until what they provide catches on like CAC did for US coins .

    What I heard was PQ sticker service might be resurrecting itself in stickering coins again as a service ……perhaps because CAC is transitioning to a grading service

    https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/cac-grading-service-planned-for-start-in-2023

    …..only this time they will include an approver of PCGS and NGC world coins as well!

    Ever heard of John Dannreuther?

    Not to mention that CAC had a solid buyback guarantee with actual money backing it.

    Does WINGS and this “new sticker service” have solid financial backing for buybacks?

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @pruebas said:

    @bidask said:
    Redford I think you bring up some excellent points ….

    Certainly on the examples you gave ….

    The idea behind the success of CAC in my opinion was the numismatist behind the idea who created CAC and US coins were minted from these modern processes

    Have you ever heard of PQ stickers ?

    https://www.pqapproved.com/why-pq/

    Now Barry Stuppler is a fine and successful coin dealer and I believe can certainly grade US coins but when it came to competing as “sticker “ service that service had already caught on in the US coin marketplace with John Albanese CAC
    sticker service ( who is now transitioning into a full grading service from what I understand.

    Now CAC has never promoted themselves to sticker foreign coins …
    WINGS gave it a shot but as I mentioned not sure how active they remain .

    It seems these type of stickering services need real staying power until what they provide catches on like CAC did for US coins .

    What I heard was PQ sticker service might be resurrecting itself in stickering coins again as a service ……perhaps because CAC is transitioning to a grading service

    https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/cac-grading-service-planned-for-start-in-2023

    …..only this time they will include an approver of PCGS and NGC world coins as well!

    Ever heard of John Dannreuther?

    Not to mention that CAC had a solid buyback guarantee with actual money backing it.

    Does WINGS and this “new sticker service” have solid financial backing for buybacks?

    Exactly what I was thinking. Otherwise, it's someone just telling you something you already know. Everyone knows what coins they like and don't like.

  • John ConduittJohn Conduitt Posts: 346 ✭✭✭

    As with grading, it's a way of manufacturing rarity. So anyone who wants to make money from nothing will like it.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Rexford said:

    @Boosibri said:

    @neildrobertson said:
    I honestly don't think there are any 3 people that are qualified to sticker all world coins.

    What subset of world coins even warrants stickering?

    Do they technically grade differently that any other coin?

    US coins have a limited age and range of striking methods. Grading world coins requires a broad knowledge of how to approach coins struck using multiple different methods (meaning you should have an understanding of the hammer method, roller presses, various screw presses (flywheel etc), edging and collar techniques, steam presses, etc) and to different qualities (for example, a Penny of Stephen can be struck almost flat, while a Penny of Edward I can have a high level of detail), the standards typical for different mints and eras and that distinguish a business strike from a proof or specimen, and should take into account age and the acceptable level of cleaning/environmental damage/etc for individual types of coins (for example, a 5 Guineas may exhibit a greater amount of cleaning than a Elizabeth II sovereign to qualify for a straight grade, and a medieval Spanish billon Cornado may be expected to have a certain amount of Environmental damage). I do not feel that there is any one person outside of the grading services who comes close to qualifying as a trustworthy and consistent source of grading opinion on every type of world coin, and would not consider any such sticker to raise my valuation of a world coin.

    I agree. I was just being facetious.

  • neildrobertsonneildrobertson Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 17, 2023 9:13AM

    @Boosibri said:

    @neildrobertson said:
    I honestly don't think there are any 3 people that are qualified to sticker all world coins.

    What subset of world coins even warrants stickering?

    Do they technically grade differently that any other coin?

    Almost every series I collect has dates/mms that were made well and others that weren't. There are certain dates that might never sticker at a sticker service because of how dies were prepped. In world coin sticker world, seemingly only the well-made coins get stickered. I don't think there's anyone, possibly even the TPGs, that have the ability to differentiate between the thousands and thousands of coin types at that level of granularity.

    IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
    "Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me

  • John ConduittJohn Conduitt Posts: 346 ✭✭✭

    @neildrobertson said:
    I don't think there's anyone, possibly even the TPGs, that have the ability to differentiate between the thousands and thousands of coin types at that level fo granularity.

    TPGs have a hard enough time getting the attribution correct and determining its genuine in the few seconds they have with each coin.

  • ClioClio Posts: 480 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bidask said:
    Ever heard of John Dannreuther?

    Are you suggesting he would be the one doing it?

    https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery

    The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,818 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Clio said:

    @bidask said:
    Ever heard of John Dannreuther?

    Are you suggesting he would be the one doing it?

    Yes I am

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • neildrobertsonneildrobertson Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 17, 2023 10:07AM

    By elimination of modern coins from CAC consideration, CAC doesn't even accept and review about half of all graded US coins. That being said, the "market cap" of US coins that CAC does accept is likely still higher than the cumulative total of all world coins, while the field of world coins is 100x+ more complex. Comparatively, the size of the certified world coin market is much smaller than US and the complexity is much higher. It's definitely less attractive from a macro point of view. Then again, someone might be driven to do this for personal reasons.

    In a world where high value coins are traded sight-unseen, a sticker evaluation of eye appeal and related visual qualities in absolute terms can create value and buyer confidence. In a world where coins are sold in online auctions with high quality photography, a sticker like that could still have value on very high value coins.

    IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
    "Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me

  • ClioClio Posts: 480 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bidask said:

    @Clio said:

    @bidask said:
    Ever heard of John Dannreuther?

    Are you suggesting he would be the one doing it?

    Yes I am

    He's pretty impressive talent as far as Numismatists go. I would be curious to hear further details for sure. Perhaps this could be a more legitimate go of things if they do some work to limit the scope of coins able to be submitted. Accepting all world coins as others in the thread have mentioned I feel would be folly. However, there's plenty of areas that are very popular and a stickering service could be of interest to collectors.

    https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery

    The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @neildrobertson said:
    By elimination of modern coins from CAC consideration, CAC doesn't even accept and review about half of all graded US coins. That being said, the "market cap" of US coins that CAC does accept is likely still higher than the cumulative total of all world coins, while the field of world coins is 100x+ more complex. Comparatively, the size of the certified world coin market is much smaller than US and the complexity is much higher. It's definitely less attractive from a macro point of view. Then again, someone might be driven to do this for personal reasons.

    In a world where high value coins are traded sight-unseen, a sticker evaluation of eye appeal and related visual qualities in absolute terms can create value and buyer confidence. In a world where coins are sold in online auctions with high quality photography, a sticker like that could still have value on very high value coins.

    There was another thread recently on the same subject.

    It's feasible for a low number of series or segments where the price level is already high enough and apparent financial motivation already exist by those who buy it. For candidates, I'd start by ranking from the Heritage Archives. British is far and away the leader at higher price points.

    I don't think it will go anywhere otherwise. If successful, it will also create a one-time windfall for those who already own a noticeable or large number of the better coins. This is the actual motivation behind it, since this has nothing to do with actual collecting. By inflating the price level, it will also price more collectors out of what they want to buy.

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,818 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't think it will go anywhere otherwise. If successful, it will also create a one-time windfall for those who already own a noticeable or large number of the better coins. This is the actual motivation behind it, since this has nothing to do with actual collecting. By inflating the price level, it will also price more collectors out of what they want to buy.

    So you believe a sticker given by John Dannreuther will in fact inflate the price level .....actually I believe this a well as John's reputation is as good as it gets and having a sticker with his blessing is kinda neat !

    However, .I personally am on the sidelines at this time.

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • RexfordRexford Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @neildrobertson said:

    @Boosibri said:

    @neildrobertson said:
    I honestly don't think there are any 3 people that are qualified to sticker all world coins.

    What subset of world coins even warrants stickering?

    Do they technically grade differently that any other coin?

    There are certain dates that might never sticker at a sticker service because of how dies were prepped. In world coin sticker world, seemingly only the well-made coins get stickered. I don't think there's anyone, possibly even the TPGs, that have the ability to differentiate between the thousands and thousands of coin types at that level of granularity.

    I don’t think that’s an accurate statement to make about stickering or grading. It isn’t only the well-made coins that get stickered, as the sole (US coin) stickering service that is respected on the market simply evaluates whether a coin is high-end for the grade. If only coins that were well-made were stickered, that would imply that the stickering service is either always tighter than the grading services on as-made issues or that they are approaching grading using an entirely different method than the TPGs, which renders their job somewhat nonsensical. As far as the world coin sticker world, such a thing doesn’t really exist on a serious level (WINGS doesn’t count for much) so to take any current approaches seriously is a mistake.

    I also don’t think it’s accurate to say that coins cannot be differentiated at that level of granularity, because grading doesn’t really work at that level of granularity. A coin that has heavy planchet roughness on the high points should not be able to grade MS68 simply because heavy planchet roughness is common for that date/mm combination. A French Ecu with heavy adjustment marks won’t grade MS68 simply because adjustment marks are common on French Ecus. As-struck issues should be taken into account in a generally uniform way across a series, and if a grader can’t understand what is or is not as struck on a coin from looking at it visually, then they are not skilled at their job.

    I only doubt the ability of anyone outside of the grading services, and maybe any one particular person in general, to consistently do this on a broader scale with all world coins. I think these things can be relatively standardized over time at the TPGs with the input of multiple people, but while graders see thousands of coins of every country and era, have strong understandings of the types of production methods, can visually tell the difference between as-made and post-strike issues, and define how to approach netting for as-made issues or post-strike damage over different types and eras from a market perspective (as with the 5 Guineas vs Elizabeth II sovereign example), most collectors and dealers have particular scopes and specialties rather than covering everything, and very few people have grading expertise in general for either US or world coins.

    If JD is the person who is supposedly doing this, then I’m sure his opinion will hold some weight, as he is a respected and accomplished grader - but I don’t personally know the depth of his knowledge or experience with world coins.

  • jdmernjdmern Posts: 286 ✭✭✭

    Rex, I agree wholeheartedly with 95% of both of your posts, especially in regards to the fact that I don't think there is any one individual whose opinion on every world coin holds more weight than anyone else. I can name 3 German dealers I would value their opinion on German coins over that of a generic dealer, same with British, Italian, Spanish, ect.

    But...

    The one part I disagree with is:

    I only doubt the ability of anyone outside of the grading services>

    I think you are discounting the vast knowledge accumulated by serious, professional numismatists who are world dealers. I can think of at least a dozen world dealers whose numismatic knowledge is on par with any grading service. (Granted, some of these dealers also consult for the services) There are dealers with libraries that are on par with grading services and have 40, 50 years experience in the field. I am certainly not trying to disparage anyone at either of the services- the graders are by and large are some of the most knowledgeable people in the field but sometimes I think it gets lost in the shuffle the amount of self education that serious professional numismatists put in.

    Justin Meunier

    Boardwalk Numismatics

  • ExbritExbrit Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 18, 2023 4:29AM

    @jdmern said:
    Rex, I agree wholeheartedly with 95% of both of your posts, especially in regards to the fact that I don't think there is any one individual whose opinion on every world coin holds more weight than anyone else. I can name 3 German dealers I would value their opinion on German coins over that of a generic dealer, same with British, Italian, Spanish, ect.

    But...

    The one part I disagree with is:

    I only doubt the ability of anyone outside of the grading services>

    I think you are discounting the vast knowledge accumulated by serious, professional numismatists who are world dealers. I can think of at least a dozen world dealers whose numismatic knowledge is on par with any grading service. (Granted, some of these dealers also consult for the services) There are dealers with libraries that are on par with grading services and have 40, 50 years experience in the field. I am certainly not trying to disparage anyone at either of the services- the graders are by and large are some of the most knowledgeable people in the field but sometimes I think it gets lost in the shuffle the amount of self education that serious professional numismatists put in.

    Here is an obscure, but pertinent, example. Łódź ghetto coins. Reportedly - PCGS has graded and slabbed many counterfeits as genuine. NGC does not grade these yet because of a lack of experience in the area. Yet specialists in Poland and elsewhere know this series much better than either TPG service. What’s interesting is that one of the specialist (dealer/Numismatist, actually interviewed the person who produced these coins.

  • neildrobertsonneildrobertson Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 18, 2023 12:30PM

    @Rexford said:
    I don’t think that’s an accurate statement to make about stickering or grading. It isn’t only the well-made coins that get stickered, as the sole (US coin) stickering service that is respected on the market simply evaluates whether a coin is high-end for the grade. If only coins that were well-made were stickered, that would imply that the stickering service is either always tighter than the grading services on as-made issues or that they are approaching grading using an entirely different method than the TPGs, which renders their job somewhat nonsensical. As far as the world coin sticker world, such a thing doesn’t really exist on a serious level (WINGS doesn’t count for much) so to take any current approaches seriously is a mistake.

    I also don’t think it’s accurate to say that coins cannot be differentiated at that level of granularity, because grading doesn’t really work at that level of granularity. A coin that has heavy planchet roughness on the high points should not be able to grade MS68 simply because heavy planchet roughness is common for that date/mm combination. A French Ecu with heavy adjustment marks won’t grade MS68 simply because adjustment marks are common on French Ecus. As-struck issues should be taken into account in a generally uniform way across a series, and if a grader can’t understand what is or is not as struck on a coin from looking at it visually, then they are not skilled at their job.

    You're right. I'm some assumptions about what CAC currently does and what future stickers might do.

    There are series at CAC that don't sticker well, either because of how they were made or how they were generally used. From my point of view, that's not ideal behavior from a sticker service. In principle, I would expect roughly the same percentage of coins to sticker across all types/grade. If the sticker service has seen 100 MS65 seated dimes and only stickers 10, there's a good chance that more than 10 are strong for the grade.

    Another factor at play is that I'm under the impression that sticker services factor certain qualities into their decision more than they factor into the grade at NGC/PCGS. I'm thinking of things like strike, certain types of toning, rub, and others. CAC might hypothetically say "We only sticker gem coins if the strike is complete or near complete, when maybe NGC might take that limitation 1-2 points higher". It's as if they're grading on two different grading standards and only sticker coins whent he two standards overlap as opposed to grading to the same standard and recognizing when it's strong for the grade.

    IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
    "Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me

  • RexfordRexford Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 18, 2023 9:46AM

    @jdmern said:
    Rex, I agree wholeheartedly with 95% of both of your posts, especially in regards to the fact that I don't think there is any one individual whose opinion on every world coin holds more weight than anyone else. I can name 3 German dealers I would value their opinion on German coins over that of a generic dealer, same with British, Italian, Spanish, ect.

    But...

    The one part I disagree with is:

    I only doubt the ability of anyone outside of the grading services>

    I think you are discounting the vast knowledge accumulated by serious, professional numismatists who are world dealers. I can think of at least a dozen world dealers whose numismatic knowledge is on par with any grading service. (Granted, some of these dealers also consult for the services) There are dealers with libraries that are on par with grading services and have 40, 50 years experience in the field. I am certainly not trying to disparage anyone at either of the services- the graders are by and large are some of the most knowledgeable people in the field but sometimes I think it gets lost in the shuffle the amount of self education that serious professional numismatists put in.

    As you know, I am close with graders myself in addition to many world dealers and am aware of which dealers (if any) are used for consultation, and I heavily disagree with those statements. There are certainly dealers who may have greater expertise in particular fields than graders, but I am very confident in stating that no one outside of the grading services has comparable knowledge in the full breadth of countries and eras that the grading services do (an expert on Mexican coinage will probably not also be fluent in Islamic hammered gold, counterfeit detection on Chinese Republic material, identification of Russian wire money, medieval French coinage, English gold patterns, world medals, variance in strike quality on Anglo Saxon pennies, etc, etc). This doesn’t mean that the grading services are experts in every field (for example, the Lodz tokens mentioned above), but they would have more advanced general knowledge than any other particular person, which was my point. As a reminder, we’re discussing one particular person potentially stickering every type of world coin.

    I am also absolutely, 100% certain that no one outside of the TPGs has the required expertise when it comes to actually grading those coins, which is the greater point. Consultants are consulted for information, not grades.

  • ClioClio Posts: 480 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 18, 2023 11:01AM

    @Rexford said:
    This doesn’t mean that the grading services are experts in every field (for example, the Lodz tokens mentioned above), but they would have more advanced general knowledge than any other particular person, which was my point. As a reminder, we’re discussing one particular person potentially stickering every type of world coin.

    I am also absolutely, 100% certain that no one outside of the TPGs has the required expertise when it comes to actually grading those coins, which is the greater point. Consultants are consulted for information, not grades.

    And to add to this in Interviews John Albanese of CAC has stated that even when on vacation he will often return to the office mid holiday to review coins and recalibrate his eye in addition to requiring his fellow graders to do the same any time they have recently returned from vacation. To stay sharp on grading I do believe what Rex states because few people in the industry are put to as rigorous a schedule of grading and evaluation on a constant basis. This is just to highlight the task at hand. All that said I do hope something similar to CAC could be achieved and if it takes hiring on competent world graders beside JD I hope he can do what is necessary to make it work.

    https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery

    The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,833 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 18, 2023 9:55AM

    .> @Rexford said:
    As a reminder, we’re discussing one particular person potentially stickering every type of world coin.

    This situation is news to me, so don't assume I know anything, but what makes anyone think that JD would run this service as a one man operation? Or, for that matter, how do we know that BidAsk didn't hear about the new service on April 1?

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,818 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:
    .> @Rexford said:
    As a reminder, we’re discussing one particular person potentially stickering every type of world coin.

    This situation is news to me, so don't assume I know anything, but what makes anyone think that JD would run this service as a one man operation? Or, for that matter, how do we know that BidAsk didn't hear about the new service on April 1?

    🤓

    Actually he told me personally. He did not indicate he would be doing this by himself

    I think this is an early stage development.

    I think you would be an excellent addition to JD to sticker

    Seriously

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • RexfordRexford Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:
    .> @Rexford said:
    As a reminder, we’re discussing one particular person potentially stickering every type of world coin.

    This situation is news to me, so don't assume I know anything, but what makes anyone think that JD would run this service as a one man operation? Or, for that matter, how do we know that BidAsk didn't hear about the new service on April 1?

    Not to be rude, but what exactly does JD know about world coins? Should an Ancients grader establish a sticker company for US coins next?

    And how does adding more people help? If there are three people stickering coins who aren’t individually qualified to do so, their combined power doesn’t make the service competent.

  • jdmernjdmern Posts: 286 ✭✭✭

    We agree on the main point- I think we agree on the fact there is not one individual in the entire world coin business who would be qualified to sticker world coins A-Z, Ancients to Modern...

    Where we seem to disagree is on the point you seem to be making, that graders, simply inherently by the fact they work for a grading company, are superior in their range of numismatic grading ability and numismatic knowledge than anyone outside of the grading companies.

    When you make a blanket statement like

    I am also absolutely, 100% certain that no one outside of the TPGs has the required expertise when it comes to actually grading those coins, which is the greater point. >

    It certainly seems like you are completely discounting many very talented numismatists around the world who do not work in California or Sarasota. To the same point, there are several dealers I can think of that were former graders, do they suddenly lose their 'required expertise' once they leave?

    Justin Meunier

    Boardwalk Numismatics

  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,504 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think the whole premise is flawed.

    Payments should be in wine and cheese. And in-person. And no stickers. And @MrEureka should do it.

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,833 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Rexford said:

    @MrEureka said:
    .> @Rexford said:
    As a reminder, we’re discussing one particular person potentially stickering every type of world coin.

    This situation is news to me, so don't assume I know anything, but what makes anyone think that JD would run this service as a one man operation? Or, for that matter, how do we know that BidAsk didn't hear about the new service on April 1?

    Not to be rude, but what exactly does JD know about world coins? Should an Ancients grader establish a sticker company for US coins next?

    And how does adding more people help? If there are three people stickering coins who aren’t individually qualified to do so, their combined power doesn’t make the service competent.

    It's really not that hard for an expert grader to grade coins he's never seen before. It only gets tricky when coins with unusual production characteristics cross the desk. For example, an expert US coin grader needs to know things like:

    1794 Dollars don't need to get knocked down if the date is somewhat weakly struck.

    Fugio Cents don't need to get knocked down for a few minor planchet flaws.

    1893-O Dollars don't need to be struck as well as an 81-S to make the grade.

    A 1908 No Motto Saint doesn't need to be as lustrous as a 23-D to make the grade.

    And so on.

    But if specialists are on staff to help avoid those kinds of mistakes, there's no reason why graders without the required specialized knowledge can't get the job done.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,833 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TwoKopeiki said:
    I think the whole premise is flawed.

    Payments should be in wine and cheese. And in-person. And no stickers. And @MrEureka should do it.

    Fine with me as long as I get to pick the wine!

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • RexfordRexford Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 18, 2023 3:34PM

    @jdmern said:
    We agree on the main point- I think we agree on the fact there is not one individual in the entire world coin business who would be qualified to sticker world coins A-Z, Ancients to Modern...

    Where we seem to disagree is on the point you seem to be making, that graders, simply inherently by the fact they work for a grading company, are superior in their range of numismatic grading ability and numismatic knowledge than anyone outside of the grading companies.

    When you make a blanket statement like

    I am also absolutely, 100% certain that no one outside of the TPGs has the required expertise when it comes to actually grading those coins, which is the greater point. >

    It certainly seems like you are completely discounting many very talented numismatists around the world who do not work in California or Sarasota. To the same point, there are several dealers I can think of that were former graders, do they suddenly lose their 'required expertise' once they leave?

    By “outside of the TPGs” I mean “neither currently nor having been employed as a world coin finalizer at a major TPG”. There are many talented numismatists around the world, but graders? No. You need to have dealt with an insane quantity of coins of all types, and with every form of surface manipulation possible. You need to be able to find the skillfully hidden plug on the Royal 8 Reales or Elizabeth I sovereign, the subtle repair work on the face of a 5 Guineas, the refrosting of the devices on a proof Una and the Lion. It is not as simple a matter as telling the difference between a 64 and a 65 on a 1935 Canadian dollar, and it’s not as simple as knowing that those types of alterations can exist. You need to have the ingrained sensory knowledge that can only really come from sitting in a dark room, surrounded by people who can lend their knowledge to you, looking at mass quantities of coins in all sorts of conditions for eight hours a day for a few years in a row. There are also not several ex-world coin grading finalizers working as dealers. I can’t think of one. There are very few people who have held that title in general.

    I would not really trust anyone who has not been employed as a finalizer for US coins to sticker US coins either, and that is a much more standardized area with a far greater quantity of general collectors who understand the grading scale. For world coins? Absolutely not.

  • neildrobertsonneildrobertson Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jdmern said:
    It certainly seems like you are completely discounting many very talented numismatists around the world who do not work >in California or Sarasota. To the same point, there are several dealers I can think of that were former graders, do they >suddenly lose their 'required expertise' once they leave?

    I think the ability to grade is a skill and not entirely knowledge-based. The person at the grading service sees and grades hundreds of coins per day to keep themselves sharp. There are few dealer jobs in the industry where people interact with coins in this way with that level of accuracy.

    The closest analogy to grading in my personal experience is when I would referee soccer. It is one thing to understand the laws of the game. It is another thing to be able to make the correct, accurate decision in the heat of the moment over and over again based on the laws of the game. And it's another thing entirely to watch a game being refereed and comment on the quality of the officiating. Having a deep intellectual understanding of the rules is not enough to be able to step onto the field and be a good official. You can still be out of shape, or out of practice, or something like that.

    I'm 15 years into an engineering career now. There are roles I've done professionally as an engineer for years that I haven't done in a while, even without changing the industry. Even though I still know how to do many of the things I've done in the past and I could still do them well if called upon, I'm nowhere near as effective as someone that is still doing it every day (or myself in the past).

    I work more in the safety space of industry these days and we focus a lot on human reliability. If you work in industry, certain types of mistakes can result in someone losing an arm, and not just an incorrect grade. As a result, we tend a lot of time analyzing human error. We find that the error rate on skill based activities, things that people do regularly and consistently that they have strong habits in, are on the order of 1/1000 times. Someone that has to do something that is knowledge based, something they intellectually understand how to do but maybe they do it infrequently, tend to make errors more like 1/10 times. The history of that way of thinking goes back to Jens Rasmussen's SRK model of human performance.. But at the end of the day, the idea is that there is a big difference in observed performance between.

    I think this goes beyond what Rexford was saying. It's still something to consider.

    IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
    "Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,833 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 18, 2023 3:24PM

    @neildrobertson said:

    @jdmern said:
    It certainly seems like you are completely discounting many very talented numismatists around the world who do not work >in California or Sarasota. To the same point, there are several dealers I can think of that were former graders, do they >suddenly lose their 'required expertise' once they leave?

    I think the ability to grade is a skill and not entirely knowledge-based. The person at the grading service sees and grades hundreds of coins per day to keep themselves sharp. There are few dealer jobs in the industry where people interact with coins in this way with that level of accuracy.

    The closest analogy to grading in my personal experience is when I would referee soccer. It is one thing to understand the laws of the game. It is another thing to be able to make the correct, accurate decision in the heat of the moment over and over again based on the laws of the game. And it's another thing entirely to watch a game being refereed and comment on the quality of the officiating. Having a deep intellectual understanding of the rules is not enough to be able to step onto the field and be a good official. You can still be out of shape, or out of practice, or something like that.

    I'm 15 years into an engineering career now. There are roles I've done professionally as an engineer for years that I haven't done in a while, even without changing the industry. Even though I still know how to do many of the things I've done in the past and I could still do them well if called upon, I'm nowhere near as effective as someone that is still doing it every day (or myself in the past).

    I work more in the safety space of industry these days and we focus a lot on human reliability. If you work in industry, certain types of mistakes can result in someone losing an arm, and not just an incorrect grade. As a result, we tend a lot of time analyzing human error. We find that the error rate on skill based activities, things that people do regularly and consistently that they have strong habits in, are on the order of 1/1000 times. Someone that has to do something that is knowledge based, something they intellectually understand how to do but maybe they do it infrequently, tend to make errors more like 1/10 times. The history of that way of thinking goes back to Jens Rasmussen's SRK model of human performance.. But at the end of the day, the idea is that there is a big difference in observed performance between.

    I think this goes beyond what Rexford was saying. It's still something to consider.

    I worked part time as a grader many years ago and don't think I got meaningfully more accurate as I got into the groove. I do, however, think I got faster.

    On the other hand, to illustrate your point, I imagine that if the TPG's forced new graders to maintain a fixed and rapid pace from Day 1, the graders would start off relatively poorly, and then get more accurate after however many days it took to ramp up. But the TPG's don't operate like that.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bidask said:
    I don't think it will go anywhere otherwise. If successful, it will also create a one-time windfall for those who already own a noticeable or large number of the better coins. This is the actual motivation behind it, since this has nothing to do with actual collecting. By inflating the price level, it will also price more collectors out of what they want to buy.

    So you believe a sticker given by John Dannreuther will in fact inflate the price level .....actually I believe this a well as John's reputation is as good as it gets and having a sticker with his blessing is kinda neat !

    However, .I personally am on the sidelines at this time.

    I don't see any purpose for stickers other than an attempt to inflate the price. That's my opinion, I admit it. If there isn't a financial motivation, I don't see why anyone would pay a premium for it which is why I assume it wouldn't last. I don't see it lasting without a financial incentive to someone. My assumption is that WINGS isn't getting paid, but I haven't confirmed it. I'm assuming they are a "self-stickerer" if that's even a word.

    As for whether a sticker from the named individual would have that result, I doubt it on world coins but maybe I'm wrong.

  • John ConduittJohn Conduitt Posts: 346 ✭✭✭

    You have to come back to the fact that slabbing is not exactly popular in “world” coins (which here seems to mean “non-US”). So why would a sticker be necessary? To differentiate between coins that are unlikely to be the best of their grade anyway? It’s not even worth differentiating between the existing grades.

    It isn’t even the case that people who do slab non-US coins are doing it for the grade. Most people know if they like a coin or not without a grade and are not buying for investment.

    If you ask people why they slab coins, the most common reason is to authenticate it. This, and not grading, is the main value of a TPG. And yet as mentioned above, they are not great at it. I am one of those people who wants a Lodz token and would buy a slab because of the huge number of good fakes. But I haven’t because the TPGs with these “experts” who see thousands of coins and can spot adjustments and fakes better than anyone else can’t actually spot the fakes. If they can’t, what is the point? I know that the TPG guarantees authenticity but that isn’t much comfort once a coin is slabbed and it’s harder to authenticate it properly. I will have to admire my collection of fakes that I know I could get my money back on if I knew more than the “experts”.

    A sticker on a slabbed fake (because the sticker expert knows even less than the TPG) would just legitimise the fakes even further. You have to really know your coins (without being able to see them properly or weigh them, or test the metal) to question one of those.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @John Conduitt said:

    If you ask people why they slab coins, the most common reason is to authenticate it. This, and not grading, is the main value of a TPG.

    The higher and sometimes inflated prices resulting from or contributed by TPG increases the motivation to counterfeit.

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,833 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @John Conduitt said:
    As with grading, it's a way of manufacturing rarity. So anyone who wants to make money from nothing will like it.

    You make it sound like such a sure thing!

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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