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Should Jeremy Roenick be in the HOF?
thisistheshow
Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
I know that I am not usually the starter of hockey discussions. I am more of an observer, rare commenter usually.
However, this question was posed to me by a family member of mine. Actually , he said "he should be in the HOF. Why isn't he?".
This is a good video, if anyone is interested.
Also, I was inspired to ask this question after reading some of the hockey discussions here about style of play, etc.
https://youtu.be/Q8aQTHAzUjk0
Comments
I truly don't know, but am anticipating reading the dialogue
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Yes.
This discussion has been closed.
And if you’re doubting me, check out the end of the 150 the new 200 thread.
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I saw that. You brought the final word like a boss. 😂🏒🥅
Yes.
https://youtu.be/Dsc41szSwLM
No, but Derian Hatcher should be. {For context, this hit was retaliation for the hit Roenick put on Mike Modano several weeks earlier. Roenick was a gutless puke.}
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Is that a yes , a no, an abstention, or just a contribution?
Sorry about that; I posted by mistake before I added my comment. Hard "NO" here, but with me it's personal not an evaluation of Roenick's playing career. Nobody hits Mike Modano, and everybody in the league but Roenick understood that. Hatcher explained it to him.
He was a puke and I hated him and his team, but he was also VERY good.
No. Roenick simply wasn't good enough for the Hall.
Over 500 goals and 700 assists and he was a "hard nosed" player.
Looks good enough for me.
IWe've been though this before here.
Derian Hatcher = glacial plug who would be a 3rd pair nobody if he played today. For those hockey-incompetent, in hockey player code, a knee on knee hit is worse than an elbow to the head. It's up there with swinging a stick McSoreley-style at someone. Roenick lost a lot of agility after that hit and was never the same player. And Roenick didn't even put a stick through that slobbering dolt's face in Team USA's camp for the 1998 Winter Olympics.
yes he's a lower end HOFer. Counting stats are good enough, and drove possession like the Kopitars and Bergerons of today despite having his ability sapped by 3rd pair nobody defensemen.
guess Messier didn't get the message
neither did the medics.
And that's not accurate. Goons/enforcers of that era had a sort of unwritten "code" to not take runs at a star player unless that player did something to provoke it ie a knee of knee hit, or a two-handed slash, which Modano would do on occasion. Roenick and Messier would not be under that same umbrella being star players. And it wasn't some hard line. See Gino Odjick's career-long uber-goon act notably with Pavel Bure and this
It's always good to see you pop up, @lanemyer85
As I've said before, you are the Hemingway of hockey talk.
you should probably have this thread taken down as it does not include a McJesus vs Crosby slant even though that question was answered a month ago twice.
Yes. I think he was a great player that put the Chicago Blackhawks back on top or near top in hockey.
McJesus
Got me to LOL this am. thanks.
Roenick had a lot of routine seasons to reach 1200 points. No major awards or serious consideration for one.
Not even the coveted Lady Byng Memorial. LOL. 1st Russian defector
I'm 50-50 on him.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
That hit on Modano was insane. guy was out before he hit the ice. and then the stupid EMT's dropped him. holy cow.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I hated the Blackhawks with a passion. They were the North Stars biggest rivalry.
Putting that aside, I did see a lot of Roenick when he was with Chicago, and he was a great (and sometimes dirty) player. Hated to write that!
I would put him in.
I'm not sure if this adds to the conversation, but some of you might find it interesting.
As I said in another thread, this thread idea was sparked by a conversation with someone who played hockey in high school with Roenick. My cousin went to Thayer Academy and they overlapped for two years. Roenick. I believe, only went there for three years and was already eighteen after his junior year and was drafted. That might be off. My cousin was two years ahead of Roenick, and he was there for Roenick's first two years at Thayer. Anyway, to get to my point...
I am having a text conversation with my cousin right now about this topic, and I included some of the comments you guys have made. He pointed out to me that when Roenick went in to his last year of high school hockey, he was told that he wasn't physical enough and because of that Steve Heinze would be drafted ahead of him. The way it actually played out was Modano was drafted number one, Roenick at 8, and I think Heinze at 60. Still, supposedly this is when Roenick intentionally became a physical player and the rest, as they say, is history.
I mean he didn't just become a physical player because of that. Kind of his personality to begin with
He played at 6'0 180 in an era where...well pretty much up until recently, there has always been a bias against smaller players. If you were a bigger guy, 6'3 and above, and strong, you had to prove you couldn't play as you were going to get every opportunity to make it in the NHL. Even if you had cement in your boots. I mean Chris Gratton couldn't outskate me, yet he had a 54 year career in that era.
Conversely, as a smaller guy, you had to prove you could play and not be injured all the time. Martin St Louis was undrafted. Johnny Gaudreau was a 4th rounder (104th overall) even though he was one of the best NCAA scorers ever. Alex DeBrincat is 5'7 so he fell to the second round and through his first 5 years in the NHL has 150ish goals. So those two guys have sort of put to bed the small guys bias for the most part. Since then the other tiny guys like Cole Caufield are getting drafted where they should be in the early first round.
Then you add in the era. Then you factor in the Norris Division which was probably the toughest of that period.
Where the coked-up Bob Proberts and various goons, rats, meatheads and guys who could not play in the NHL today littered rosters often 3 to 5 to a team. So you know, getting beaten up every night gets old pretty quickly. Not just talking about taking hits and getting into scrums and fights whether you wanted to or not (this was pre-instigator rule, so there were times when plugs would just start punching guys whether their gloves were off or not), but getting slashed and speared and as you can see from that previous post, taking knee on knee nits from slobbering dolts who were 6'5 and 240 lbs.
He wasn't dirty, dirty....certainly not like Messier-dirty, Brendan Shanahan-dirty, not even Zdeno (hey here's another crosscheck into the back of your head/neck for 20 years) Chara, or Ovechkin (author of 3 knee on knee hits he never answered for + a legion of charging infractions he's gotten away with) dirty, but like a handful of star or semi-star players of that era, he had an edge to his game. So did Chelios, and so did guys like Wendall Clark, Tkachuk, Keith Primeau, Theo Fleury, Pat Verbeek, Doug Weight etc. But Roenick answered for his stuff. He fought pretty much every goon of that era including Probert multiple times. Guess who didn't? Slobbering plug, Derian "I gotta protect 6'3 Modano when it's a 6 foot 180 pound guy taking a run at him, but I'm nowhere to be found when Messier takes his head off" Hatcher.
All that said, there's a reason Roenick had the highest selling jersey from 91-94, and not just because he played for a major market. He outsold Gretzky and Lemieux and anyone on Toronto in his prime peak years. Smallish guy, played like a screaming banshee on the forecheck, fought mouthbreathers who were 5 inches and 40 lbs heavier than he was and who would be installing tires at Belle if they were attempting to play hockey today.
Chelios..... I remember him attacking Brian Bellows and trying to gouge his eyes out when he was down on the ice. One of the worst things I have seen in a hockey game.
Any discussion concerning goons also has to include Al Secord, who actually had 3 seasons scoring more than 40 goals.
Another memory; the entire crowd at Metropolitan Sports Center screaming "SECORD SUCKS!"
Good times😃
Edited to add; Secord had a year with both over 40 goals and 300 penalty minutes. I wonder if that's some kind of record?
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I appreciate all of your insight! Thank you.
I included what my cousin said because I think that is some pretty good insight, from knowing him back then.
I think the player from that generation that my cousin kept up with the most was Mike Sullivan
He was from the same town as us. He's told me sone interesting things via him. One that stands out is Millbury telling him that the majority of NHL goals are scored because the goalie made a mistake.
I do remember my cousin telling me that Roenick's agent/s told him not to get on a scale when he visited with NHL teams. I thought of that when you mentioned Roenick's size. LOL.
Again, I love your insight and commentary.
I'm not sure who twisted your panties so tight about Hatcher, but it's funny. In any event, Hatcher was a young kid when superstar Messier did what he did, but he was team captain - and the undisputed heart and most respected player - of the Stars when gutless puke Roenick took his cheap shot.
True story; on the 20th anniversary of the Stars moving to Dallas they polled the fans for their favorite Dallas Stars moments. Winning the Stanley Cup came in 2nd. Guess what was first? Derian Hatcher was already a fan favorite before he explained the folly of cheap-shotting Modano to Roenick; he became a legend on that day, and will remain one forever. I don't think you quite grasp the sheer joy felt by Dallas Stars fans, and indeed hockey fans everywhere, when Hatcher detached Roenick's jaw from his skull. It was beautiful, man! The Dallas Stars have retired six numbers, and those six became the inaugural class of the Stars HOF. The first player inducted after that? Derian Hatcher, of course. You may not like it, and you may not understand it, but Derian Hatcher is FAR more popular in Dallas than Jeremy Roenick is in any of the cities he darkened with his gutless puke presence.
That's your opinion.
Roenick never fought Bob Probert.
https://www.hockeyfights.com/players/225/fightcard_quickie
The one highlight video of them squaring off is a roughing where Roenick did basically nothing.
HHOF is reserved for the best at something.
Roenick falls into the “No Man’s Land” category. He was good at a lot of things but not the best. He didn’t have that “WOW” factor during his career. Steady Eddie….
"Best at something" means different things to different people. When it comes to sports the guys that impress me are the guys that are "best" at all facets of the game.
Guys that are always avoiding contact and looking for open ice to make fancy plays and RARELY engage in puck battles and NEVER go into the corner to possibly get checked and are lazy back checkers don't "wow" me one bit.
If you were a North Stars fan when we drafted Modano, and you watched the games between the Blackhawks and Stars, (and really knew what to look for), you saw that Modano was the superior "wow factor" guy, but Roenick was the better hockey player.
I looked at their numbers and see that Roenick was actually the better scorer of the two. Modano was on the ice a lot more than Roenick and Jeremy scored more points per minute of TOI.
Jeremy also took a lot less shots with a higher scoring percentage.
Anyone who watched those games knew that if Modano got some space, he could rush the length of the ice, make guys look like a fool, and score a highlight reel goal.
Roenick would crash into you, take the puck away (maybe while punching you in the face) and bring the puck down the ice for a score.
I was a huge Modano fan (still am) and I HATED Roenick (got over that) but even back then I knew Roenick was "better".
I still like Modano better though, boy could he skate!
I was referring to the WHOLE group of 2-way forwards during his playing career. It was loaded with those types of players. Federov, Lindros, Modano, Messier…. I’m a Roenick fan but when you compare his to the others as a group, I feel his numbers come up short….
Well he compares well with Modano as I just pointed out.
Lindros had a short career, that has to be considered.
You might want to actually look at the comparison between Roenick and Federov.
Messier was the best of the bunch.
The rest are surprisingly even.
incorrect.
Also fought Probert as part of a line brawl in a preseason game in 1991 or 92 as well. I was there. Brad McCrimmon attempted to knee on knee Steve Larmer.
https://www.facebook.com/TheHockeyBeast/photos/a.1639036566318935/3281335818755660/?type=3
This was at least the second time you've thumbed out that fodder while completely ignoring the (worse) knee on knee hit. I couldn't care less about Stars fans or their fanboys, and I'm making fun of someone with Dallas in their handle, for being one, if you missed that part of it. I mean let it go. They play golf together at all of these golfer/athlete/faux-celeb tourneys. They were on Olympic teams together. They get along fine.
Clearly, which makes me wonder why you are spending so much time addressing me. I don't actually care about what you think, either - in case you missed that part; I'm just here to make sure people understand what a colossal pile of excrement it took to create Jeremy Roenick. Sure, hockey fans already knew that, but not everyone here is a hockey fan.
clearly, that's why you directly responded to me twice. I'm just here to point out the things you conveniently failed to point out, at least twice now, regarding the guy who would be changing Jr's oil in his 911 if he were around today.
As long as we're in agreement, and we appear to be, that Jeremy Roenick is a sub-human mound of wombat poop, then I'm good. Your opinion, that Derian Hatcher should have mutilated others in addition to Roenick, is unusual but you're entitled to it. But for my part, that he mutilated Roenick is plenty for me, the city of Dallas, and the state of Texas, to elevate Derian Hatcher to the ranks of Hockey God. Since he could not possibly be held in higher esteem, you can whine about things he didn't do 'til the cows come home but nobody will ever care. There, I addressed your "point"; now we can both be happy.
How do you feel about Suter's two cross checks on Kaprizov last night?
Then he's too much of a kitty-cat to fight a runt like Zuccarello.
Glad we cut him and I hope Ryan Reeves can catch him with the puck.
I wanted to ask you about those cross checks too.
Do you think the NHL is ever going to put a stop to cheap shots on players like Kaprizov?
I know he's a tough little guy, but he was hurt near the end of the year by one of those "slobbering giants" and I think Suter's second cross check hurt Kirill's ribs.
I don't know about anyone else, but I enjoy watching skill and the league has way too many big guys who aren't very good.
Johanson was viciously cross checked in the final game of the regular season, obvious intent to injure, and the guy gets a 5 game suspension.
If we're going to play that way, I hope Mr Reeves (our slobbering goon) obliterates Suter and puts him out for the series. We all know Suter refuses to fight, yet has the reputation of being a dirty player. 🐔 💩
We need the BIG Russian to protect the little one!
Suter is no favorite of mine, but honestly, after what Dumba did to Pavelski I admired the restraint of every Star on the ice. I sincerely do wish Derian Hatcher could lace up for one more game with the sole intention of ending Dumba's career with a massive, and massively painful, injury. No offense to anyone else on the team, but the Wild are now on my list of teams that I will never root for, ever, until the end of time.
At least Pavelski had just passed the puck and should have been expecting the possibility of a hit.
Puck was nowhere near Kaprizov.
I hope Pavelski is ok.
hey, we now know dallasactuary's real name is Mac Engel. Hack writer to the hilljack Texas stars...
https://www.si.com/fannation/bringmethesports/wild/dallas-columnist-urges-stars-to-get-revenge-on-matt-dumba
and now you have something to be weirdly affected by for the next 30 years while the participants in the said incident will be out golfing together or sitting next to one another at USA Hockey events.
Ah. The site I referenced only lists regular season fights. Even still, the way Chelios describes it, it wasn't much of a fight with Probie basically ignoring Roenick but I'll defer to your memory.
I mean they have cracked down on crosschecking, at least outside of the crease. But we know the playoffs are a different thing. The refs/league are not going to do something to give one team an advantage unless it's something egregious like the Domi response. Those were 2 or 3 pretty hard punches he landed on Dumba, so he got the gate. In a case like those crosschecks on Kirill in a "scrum"/faux line-brawl situation, it's almost always going to be nothing or a matching penalty where both are sent off with a matching roughing call. Can't say I thought those Suter crosschecks were too violent, and Suter certainly isn't a dirty player. I mean those crocschecks are what Chara did i in the preseason for 20 years. And I get what Kaprizov was trying to do, but I think we both know when a 3rd man in situation goes down, it's sort of fair game, among players.
No, Suter didn't BLAST Kaprizov, but of the two I saw, neither was in the crease, and in both cases, the puck was not in, and had not been, in the area. I guess one of the cheap shots was sort of in the vicinity of the crease. Still not legal to do.
The cumulative effect of getting cross checked to the ribs or lower back is going to effect the game more than calling a penalty. It looked to me like Kirill got hurt after the last cross check.
So, it's not ok to call a penalty to give a team an advantage, but it's ok to let a team commit fouls against the best player on the ice? How is that not giving the goons an advantage.
Suter wasn't running around hitting guys all over it ice, he was after our best scorer. Smart (I guess) if it doesn't get called.
I saw Foligno hit Robertson cleanly and Reeves clobber Benn, also legally. Maybe they should have been cross checking the crap out of those two instead?
You mentioned Ciccarelli in a post. He was my favorite player for a time, and I have yet to see ANYONE get mugged on a consistent basis as him. He was a tough SOB and if he became a dirty player, I don't blame him one bit.
I guess the NHL is more interested in big than good.
Ever hear of Mark Pavelich and how his life turned out? 😔
right, I get it, but they weren't crosschecks to the head or face. Very different taking one or two to the back in the playoffs. Really, after the Dumba hit, which yes technically wasn't a major or a match penalty (because of the way the rule is stupidly worded), but it was a dirty predatory hit where he intentionally stooped down and launched up to clock Pavelski in the head...a Tom Wilson, Trouba style dirty hit, what did you really expect, there? I mean go find the clip of the slash Pageau laid on Teräväinen tonight. Broke his hand, now out for the playoffs, and it didn't even get a 2 minute slashing penalty. So now a team who could legitimately challenge the Bruins in the east is missing its 3 top wingers (Svechnikov, Pacioretty, Teräväinen). There were a lot of no calls in the Bruins/Cats game tonight too. It's just he way it is in the playoffs.
By this point, the Wild, with Evason who was, not a rat, but sandpapery/rat-ish sometimes as a player himself, and Guerin is doing everything in his power to make the Wild the Minnesota Bruins of early 2010's both in roster construction and by rostering 3 or 4 goonish players (Reaves, Middleton, Foligno, Duhaime) + Hartman's sometimes rat-adjace act, and Dumba has been trending towards this too with a decent number of predatory hits over the last 2 years (since he's lost 2 steps in his skating and apparently most of his puck skills since he started physically breaking down over these last 2+ years, maybe he's being coached td do this). Even Mighty Mouse Spurgeon has been chippy this series. So you're not going to be getting a whole lot of the benefit of the doubt when it comes to calls. Even on your star. The refs get tired of having to police that crap, too.
Yes I'm aware of Pavelich. Sadly, there are a lot of those stories out there. There's the Joe Murphy saga which you can find by googling "Finding Murph". The (still) mysterious death of Steve Montador. Stan Mikita died not knowing who he or his family is/was. Marc Savard's disturbing concussion history (thanks to human compost pile, Matt Cooke) just to name a few.
I tend to agree with your evaluation of the Wild.
Other than getting very lucky with Kaprizov, they have drafted horribly, so they have (other than Brodin, love his play) a lack of veteran talent. No one's fault but their own. Hopefully with Judd Brackett, that will improve. Boldy looks good, at times. Trading Burns wasn't too smart either.😩
I'm not exactly sure on what the NHL did, but I have been told that after the Wild signed Parise/Suter, the cap hit rule was changed and their contracts weren't "grandfathered in". The Wild want to be competitive, but an almost $15M penalty seems outrageous to me. The result is they have to fill out their roster with a bunch of $1M a year guys, rookies and "ham and eggers".
They have quite a few little guys in Spurgeon, Kaprizov and Zuccarello and needed to get bigger and tougher as to not get run out of the rink.
The result has been guys that keep their jobs by being tough; Reeves is horrible, but he has behaved himself better than in the past, Foligno is a good forechecker and tough guy with a little scoring skill, Hartman has a little bit of skill (good 3rd line center?), Duhaime looks interesting, not sure yet if he has any potential as a scorer. I like Middleton, they HAD to get a big guy back there and he looks pretty good to me.
Dumba is probably the most loved/hated player on our team by the fans. Since his injury, he has regressed, he does like to throw big time hits and they are often borderline. He's a right shot, offensive defenseman who doesn't score much and makes a LOT of money. I don't think he will be re-signed unless he takes a huge pay cut.
Rossi is beginning to look like a bust. The game he played the other night he spent a lot of time getting knocked to the ice. He might be to small for the NHL.
Hopefully, by the time the cap hit is gone, Kaprizov will not be in a wheelchair and Boldy will be a star and the Wild can add a superstar type or a couple of very good/great players to the mix.
Wallstedt looks like he might be the future at goalie and Gustafsson looks like a steal. Fleury looks great one minute and not so great the next.
I don't "love" the way the team is made up, but they are doing an awfully good job with a bad cap situation. It's not going to get better soon unless one or more young guys come up and are very good.
Oh, I agree completely on Matt Cooke, I was completely ashamed of my team when he took out MacKinnon with a cheap shot, guys like that should just get banned from the league. Thus returning to my point that the NHL has got to do something to protect the top players from being intentionally hurt. How sad it would have been if Nathan's career would have been over from that hit?
Hockey is by far my favorite sport, but they might need to look at the NFL and how they protect their star players.
it wasn't just the Rarise/Suter contracts. It was that Devils Kovalchuk contract that really started it. The league just wanted to do away with the frontloaded/backdiving contracts (which were used to lower the yearly cap hit) where the teams were signing those 8+ year contracts knowing the player would be retired by the 5th or 6th year. In the end they were right to do it as it was getting out of hand.
But now they have another plague on their hands with the (LTIR) long term injured reserve clause where teams can accrue the salary of those missed games (sort of like banking extra cash) to use on other players via trade or signings during the season because you can take the cap hit off of the LTIR player. This was most notably seen with the two Tampa cup runs where both Stamkos and Kucherov were out for significant amounts of time and Tampa was able to go out and trade for other players, and then use both the players who were injured for the majority of the season and the newly acquired players in the playoffs whereas they wouldn't have been able to do that the regular season. So there does still exist another form of cap circumvention.
If I have it right, the Wild shouldn't be carrying this "dead cap money" on their books IF the contracts were signed prior to the rule changes.
Didn't the league approve those contracts?
If someone finds a way to get guys signed under the existing rules, the NHL should honor the deal.
It looks like the teams have found a way around the cap again.
Oh well, another two seasons of having to compete with $15M less than they "should" have.
Parise and Suter are still playing for other teams and not retired.
This was too much to paste, so here is a link to how the buyouts work with related cap hit amounts and lenghths.
https://www.capfriendly.com/buyout-faq
no the Wild should definitely be on the hook for buyouts because the contracts extended past their age 35 seasons. Like I mentioned in the previous post, that's what they were trying to crackdown on. Those long contracts designed to extend the player into their retirement years to lower the yearly cap hit.