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6 Apr 2023 Abominably Overgraded

MapsOnFireMapsOnFire Posts: 221 ✭✭✭
edited April 6, 2023 4:27PM in U.S. Coin Forum

I came from EAC and I don't much like TPG grading. I don't complain about it because that would be irritating and pointless. But F15 for this 1859 S seated dollar is so offensive to me that I can't let it go.
The VG8 pictured in CoinFacts is distinctly superior to this coin.

Comments

  • Steven59Steven59 Posts: 8,613 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well the obverse looks to be about VG10/F12 - Why did you not post a reverse pic ? Can't grade a coin on just one side.

    "When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"

  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Steven59 said:
    Well the obverse looks to be about VG10/F12 - Why did you not post a reverse pic ? Can't grade a coin on just one side.

    I agree but what happened to the shield. An old timer would grade this a good-4 maximum, because liberty is worn off, but the remainder of the coin has some detail. I also would like to see the entire coin.

    Tom

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,966 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like a VG8 obv and VG10 rev. Don't believe it would cross to PCGS in same grade. JMO
    Jim


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  • Steven59Steven59 Posts: 8,613 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TPRC said:

    @Steven59 said:
    Well the obverse looks to be about VG10/F12 - Why did you not post a reverse pic ? Can't grade a coin on just one side.

    I agree but what happened to the shield. An old timer would grade this a good-4 maximum, because liberty is worn off, but the remainder of the coin has some detail. I also would like to see the entire coin.

    Old timers need to get with the times - this is what a G04 Obverse looks/grades like today...........

    "When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"

  • Steven59Steven59 Posts: 8,613 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2023 4:53PM

    Reverse looks to be almost F15 - But with the Obverse - Net 12. I guess getting extra points for the rarity factor....should be interesting to see what the final census is.........!

    "When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2023 5:15PM

    Looks cleaned to me. I would pass on buying for that reason alone making the grade shown on the holder irrelevant to me.

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree with “cleaned,” and I don’t know what happened to shield. I suppose it’s as struck, but it almost looks like post mint damage. As a coin graded Fine-15, I would have say, it’s a “C” coin. There is supposed to be a certain amount of “generic aspect” to a grade. This coin is anything but generically graded.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • AtcarrollAtcarroll Posts: 399 ✭✭✭✭

    @mr1931S said:
    Looks cleaned to me. I would pass on buying for that reason alone making the grade shown on the holder irrelevant to me.

    It's definitely too clean for the grade, but if the metal itself hasn't been damaged by the cleaning I'd consider buying it, it'd have to be discounted some compared to an uncleaned specimen, though.

  • AtcarrollAtcarroll Posts: 399 ✭✭✭✭

    The shield wear is definitely atypical, given the amount of detail left in the gown and liberty's fingers.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 33,920 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:
    “6 Apr 2023 Abominably Overgraded”

    I don’t think the date (April 6) is over-graded or under-graded. It’s like most any other date.😉

    Not if the actual date was April 1st...

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 33,920 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The shield is the only real issue. Weak strike?

    It's certainly far from an abomination

  • Shane6596Shane6596 Posts: 759 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2023 8:30PM

    Couple F15 from PCGS for reference


    NGC from above


    There is something going on with the shield. And the rim looks worn down quite a bit on half of it.

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  • 1madman1madman Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Whoever “made” the OP coin in the 15 holder deserves a pat on the back. Impeccable submission timing creating a coffin holder.

    Wish I had this type of submission luck

  • dsessomdsessom Posts: 2,317 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would guess it to be in the VG10 neighborhood, but the wear is definitely not typical with all the shield details gone, but it has full rims on both sides? And yes, it looks cleaned as well. Still, an interesting coin!

    Dwayne Sessom
  • shishshish Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭✭✭

    VG-8 maybe VG-10, clearly over-graded, NGC should cover it under their grading guarantee.

    Liberty Seated and Trade Dollar Specialist
  • OmegaraptorOmegaraptor Posts: 539 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2023 3:56PM


    NGC photo vision pics of this same coin. I love this issue but do have to agree it is a bit overgraded looking at another F-15 that went to auction.

    "You can't get just one gun." "You can't get just one tattoo." "You can't get just one 1796 Draped Bust Large Cent."

  • spacehaydukespacehayduke Posts: 5,715 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2023 6:38PM

    Is it possible that the 59-S is known to have a weak obverse strike? If so, then the graders, who perhaps know this, would base their grade on wear on the reverse. So I am not sure why NGC is being denigrated w/o knowledge of how these are struck up. It is like the 1839-D half eagle that has a terrible obverse strike. Because of this, sometimes it gets undergraded bc apparently the graders do not know this. Based on PCGS Photograde, the reverse looks VF, so F15 could be a compromise grade between the obverse and reverse as well.

    Here is a VG8 in PCGS Photograde:

    Clearly, the reverse is much better than VG and thus, it is possible the coin was graded higher than VG based on the interpretation of a weak obverse strike and thus basing the grade on the reverse. In terms of cleaning >80% of seated dollars in straight grade holders have been cleaned according to some well-informed numismatists. So all it means here is that it won't make it into a CAC holder, does not mean is should not straight grade based on how the TPG's put lotsa cleaned coins in straight grade holders.

    In terms of EAC grading, I think they are nuts and ignore it, and their anti-TPG stance is why I stopped collecting large and half cents and did not renew to their clubbie.

    My online coin store - https://www.desertmoonnm.com/
  • FrankHFrankH Posts: 945 ✭✭✭✭✭

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,503 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not a big money spread on the possible overgrading. Customers will make a decision on whether they like it or not.

  • spacehaydukespacehayduke Posts: 5,715 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:
    Not a big money spread on the possible overgrading. Customers will make a decision on whether they like it or not.

    I agree except it is not clear that the coin is overgraded based on what I said above.... Weak obverse strike? Sure, but that is not supposed to be part of the grading of lower grades although TPG's undergrade bc of weak strike (except in MS grades?) in some cases.

    My online coin store - https://www.desertmoonnm.com/
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 33,920 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @spacehayduke said:

    @logger7 said:
    Not a big money spread on the possible overgrading. Customers will make a decision on whether they like it or not.

    I agree except it is not clear that the coin is overgraded based on what I said above.... Weak obverse strike? Sure, but that is not supposed to be part of the grading of lower grades although TPG's undergrade bc of weak strike (except in MS grades?) in some cases.

    I tend to want to agree. That entire coin is F15 except the shield. That does suggest to me something other than wear caused the loss of detail.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,085 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @spacehayduke said:

    @logger7 said:
    Not a big money spread on the possible overgrading. Customers will make a decision on whether they like it or not.

    I agree except it is not clear that the coin is overgraded based on what I said above.... Weak obverse strike? Sure, but that is not supposed to be part of the grading of lower grades although TPG's undergrade bc of weak strike (except in MS grades?) in some cases.

    I tend to want to agree. That entire coin is F15 except the shield. That does suggest to me something other than wear caused the loss of detail.

    That was my first thought. Perhaps there was grease or other debris clogging the die in the vicinity of the obverse shield. I doubt it was caused by a weak strike because it is too localized. This was probably one of those coins that stopped the grader cold in his tracks and required him to consult with the other graders to reach a consensus as what happened to the shield and how do we treat this anomaly when assigning a grade. Not every coin can be easily graded in a straightforward manner and that's certainly the case with this coin.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
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  • shishshish Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭✭✭

    +1 I doubt it was caused by a weak strike because it is too localized. I've studied and specialized in this series for several decades. Although many examples of this date exhibit soft strikes, most often the weakness is on the eagle's right leg and the top of its right wing. In addition, for this series it's common for the reverse to grade a point higher than the obverse.

    Regardless, I know of only one exception to the following statement. The numismatic community does not grade this series by the reverse.

    Liberty Seated and Trade Dollar Specialist
  • Coin FinderCoin Finder Posts: 7,155 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hmmmmm, I guess I would pass on that coin if I needed a nice F15 in the date for a set. If I owned it and wanted to sell it, I would price it at VG money....

  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,479 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2023 8:23AM

    @MFeld said:
    “6 Apr 2023 Abominably Overgraded”

    I don’t think the date (April 6) is over-graded or under-graded. It’s like most any other date.😉

    OH BROTHER!

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • rec78rec78 Posts: 5,732 ✭✭✭✭✭

    VG obverse, VF reverse=F coin. I am probably the one here that agrees with the grade-Cleaned yes- as most seated coins are. You can't grade by the shield alone. There is still a lot of the design showing. If it is overgraded -it is not by very much, I would say it is a F-12 at least. And no, it is not my coin. If you want to sell it at vg or lower price, sell it to me. I'm in!!

    image
  • MapsOnFireMapsOnFire Posts: 221 ✭✭✭

    The exact coin in OP sold at Heritage, 1 Feb 2023, for $930. That's VG+ money I believe.

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