Double Vision- another bad coin and "PCGS" cert...

burfle23

Cert has an archived auction listed and images available for comparison:

Best, Jack.

dsessom

This is extremely concerning. The entire idea of buying certified coins is to ensure that they are indeed genuine. I see this as an existential threat to PCGS and NGC mainly. I sincerely hope TGP's are taking note of this trend and formulating a plan to counter it, or it might eventually hurt business.

Shane6596

They're like roaches, but don't run away when you turn on the light.

Is this an ebay sale? You have a link so we can blast it?

burfle23

@Shane6596 said:
They're like roaches, but don't run away when you turn on the light.

Is this an ebay sale? You have a link so we can blast it?

Not on eBay currently; I take the time to blast them as well...

ricko

We need to keep reporting (blasting) these whenever encountered.... I know it is like whack-a-mole, but if we ignore it, the problem will only grow. Cheers, RickO

MetroD

@ricko said:
We need to keep reporting (blasting) these whenever encountered.... I know it is like whack-a-mole, but if we ignore it, the problem will only grow. Cheers, RickO

Agreed. We play a role.

That said, IMHO, PCGS also has a role, one that requires them to assign some resources to this issue. In short, I believe that they need to:
~ make it easy for us to report suspected counterfeits to them;
~ evaluate the submitted reports in a timely manner;
~ and, take any required 'corrective actions' promptly (e.g., cert deactivation, contact the selling venue, etc.).

IIRC, there was talk of creating a dedicated communication channel for reporting suspected counterfeits. Did this ever materialize?

burfle23

Latest "double vision" examples:

Mr_Spud

Thank you for finding these and posting images of them.

Zoins

@dsessom said:
This is extremely concerning. The entire idea of buying certified coins is to ensure that they are indeed genuine. I see this as an existential threat to PCGS and NGC mainly. I sincerely hope TGP's are taking note of this trend and formulating a plan to counter it, or it might eventually hurt business.

It may be an existential threat to coins without cert verification photos. Just do TrueView for all classic coins.

alaura22

@Zoins said:

@dsessom said:
This is extremely concerning. The entire idea of buying certified coins is to ensure that they are indeed genuine. I see this as an existential threat to PCGS and NGC mainly. I sincerely hope TGP's are taking note of this trend and formulating a plan to counter it, or it might eventually hurt business.

It may be an existential threat to coins without cert verification photos. Just do TrueView for all classic coins.

How about "For All Coins"

burfle23

@Zoins said:

@dsessom said:
This is extremely concerning. The entire idea of buying certified coins is to ensure that they are indeed genuine. I see this as an existential threat to PCGS and NGC mainly. I sincerely hope TGP's are taking note of this trend and formulating a plan to counter it, or it might eventually hurt business.

It may be an existential threat to coins without cert verification photos. Just do TrueView for all classic coins.

Certainly weeds out a lot of great pre-trueview examples out there...

Zoins

@burfle23 said:

@Zoins said:

@dsessom said:
This is extremely concerning. The entire idea of buying certified coins is to ensure that they are indeed genuine. I see this as an existential threat to PCGS and NGC mainly. I sincerely hope TGP's are taking note of this trend and formulating a plan to counter it, or it might eventually hurt business.

It may be an existential threat to coins without cert verification photos. Just do TrueView for all classic coins.

Certainly weeds out a lot of great pre-trueview examples out there...

PCGS can do in-holder TrueViews now so there’s really no such thing as “pre-TrueView” anymore. If it’s important, someone will get it done.

Also, how many of the counterfeits we’ve seen are “great”? Many great coins already have TrueViews. The exception I’ve seen is old error coins.

burfle23

No arguing with you @Zoins ; I guess it is a moot point. Just odd so many counterfeits in fake PCGS holders have certs with no images, but you are correct, they are not "great" coins to start with...

But wait, the 1921 MS64 Peace at the top of this post had no True View; fortunately this less than great example had auction archive images to help.

Zoins

@burfle23 said:
No arguing with you @Zoins ; I guess it is a moot point. Just odd so many counterfeits in fake PCGS holders have certs with no images, but you are correct, they are not "great" coins to start with...

It's not surprising to me that counterfeiters would tend to target coins without cert verification photos, though we've seen some just steal photos so you may not know except they offer them in quantity at low prices.

@burfle23 said:
But wait, the 1921 MS64 Peace at the top of this post had no True View; fortunately this less than great example had auction archive images to help.

Agreed, on the off chance great coins don't have TrueViews, they are often sold by Heritage or Stack's which have photos linked to Cert Verification. Thanks to PCGS, Heritage and Stack's for keeping on top of things.

And the reality is that we're now in a world where many not-so-great coins have TrueViews. If you want to protect yourself, arm yourself with knowledge, or fall back to Cert Verification photos.

dsessom

What happens when PCGS kills a cert number? Does the authentic coin have to be resubmitted?

Also, as an alternative to PCGS having to Trueview every coin out there to assist in slab counterfeit deterrence, I wish we were able to upload our own photos, however, I can see how that could turn into a mess real quick.

burfle23

And the latest bad "pair"...