Question For The Error People

MWallace

@FredWeinberg @ctf_error_coins et al

Do you consider a saddle strike to be double struck?

ctf_error_coins

@MWallace said:
@FredWeinberg @ctf_error_coins et al

Do you consider a saddle strike to be double struck?

Good question and I never thought about it.

Now that you bring it up, it is a single strike with two die sets.

It is considered double struck in error terms.

seanq

I would say it is "double struck" in that it was struck by dies twice, and it doesn't matter whether those strikes happened concurrently or sequentially.

I would also add that while "double struck" does describe a saddle strike, on its own it does not come close to _fully _ describing a saddle strike.

Sean Reynolds

Zoins

Double denominations are also struck twice

The situation with "mated pair" is of note. If there are two different objects that are struck together, then the item can be a mated pair. However, if it is two pieces of something that broken into two (like a split planchet, or detached lamination), then it's not a "mated pair".

CaptHenway

Yes

Zoins

I found this one which shows PCGS considers it a Double Strike.

Photo courtesy of @ctf_error_coins

MWallace

@Zoins said:
I found this one which shows PCGS considers it a Double Strike.

Photo courtesy of @ctf_error_coins

I have two that were sent to NGC in the same submission. Here are the labels.

ricko

The complexities and nuances of labeling errors.... Interesting specimens. Wish I could find one like that in the wild.... Like a Coinstar reject bin. Cheers, RickO

MrEureka

@ctf_error_coins said:

@MWallace said:
@FredWeinberg @ctf_error_coins et al

Do you consider a saddle strike to be double struck?

Good question and I never thought about it.

Now that you bring it up, it is a single strike with two die sets.

Always?

gumby1234

It could be either. A true saddle strike is one strike , but there are examples that are 2 off center strikes that resemble a saddle strike that was struck once by multiple dies. I guess you would need to know how the dies are aligned to one another.

MWallace

@gumby1234 said:
It could be either. A true saddle strike is one strike , but there are examples that are 2 off center strikes that resemble a saddle strike that was struck once by multiple dies. I guess you would need to know how the dies are aligned to one another.

They are aligned in a quad press pretty much head-to-head. Such as the PCGS example above.

gumby1234

The spacing on the PCGS one if normal distance i am surprised there are no quad saddle strikes. Now that would be cool.

seanq

@MWallace said:

@gumby1234 said:
It could be either. A true saddle strike is one strike , but there are examples that are 2 off center strikes that resemble a saddle strike that was struck once by multiple dies. I guess you would need to know how the dies are aligned to one another.

They are aligned in a quad press pretty much head-to-head. Such as the PCGS example above.

I studied a bunch of these for another member not long ago who was trying to get a multi-struck coin certified at PCGS. I would guess based on the alignment of the dies that the PCGS example was dated 1964-65. The dies on those dates were offset slightly (roughly 10 degrees) where later saddle strikes were aligned head to head in a straight line.

Sean Reynolds

CaptHenway

@gumby1234 said:
The spacing on the PCGS one if normal distance i am surprised there are no quad saddle strikes. Now that would be cool.

It is my understanding that the two dual die holders which make up a quad-feed array are far enough apart that a triple or quadruple strike from one press strike is impossible.

SullivanNumismatics

Yes, a saddle strike is a double-strike. You have two strikes from the same design.

As @CaptHenway said, two dies are all that is possible. More is too far apart. I've never seen or heard of more than that as a saddle strike.

Zoins

Here's the most amazing saddle strike I've ever seen!

What's really cool about this is that if there were four dies loaded, it goes to show that three or four cannot be struck at the same time!

Of course, what would be great is a photo of the die set up in a quad press. Are any photos known?

It's also worth noting that most times the Lincoln's head is oriented towards each other on saddle strikes, as shown on this piece.

Slab photo courtesy of @Byers

MWallace

Okay then, let me play devil's advocate. For the sake of this discussion, leave the "third die", the collar, out of it.

If a saddle strike is "double struck" because of "ONE down stroke of two dies simultaneously", then aren't ALL coins double struck? They are struck by "ONE down stroke of two dies simultaneously". Obverse die and reverse die. Using this logic, then saddle struck coins are quadrupled struck.

@Zoins @FredWeinberg @ctf_error_coins @seanq @oakstar @CaptHenway @SullivanNumismatics

seanq

@MWallace said:
Okay then, let me play devil's advocate. For the sake of this discussion, leave the "third die", the collar, out of it.

If a saddle strike is "double struck" because of "ONE down stroke of two dies simultaneously", then aren't ALL coins double struck? They are struck by "ONE down stroke of two dies simultaneously". Obverse die and reverse die. Using this logic, then saddle struck coins are quadrupled struck.

@Zoins @FredWeinberg @ctf_error_coins @seanq @oakstar @CaptHenway @SullivanNumismatics

The issue is that only one die is moving during a strike, acting as the hammer, while the other one acts as the anvil. The planchet is resting on one die and struck by the other. If you laid a horseshoe on an anvil and struck it with a hammer, you would not say it had been struck twice.

Sean Reynolds

CaptHenway

Perhaps the ultimate LEGITIMATE multi-strike coin (excluding the "tulips" where multiple planchets get struck together and fuse into a mass that opens up like a flower) would be a saddle strike coin that popped out of the first die pair in a quad-feed press and then got saddle struck by the other die pair, where you could prove it by die characteristics on all four die pairs. I know of no such strike existing.

BTW, "tulip" was the term used by a Denver Mint employee when I was with an ANA Summer Seminar tour of the Denver Mint and one such "tulip" was passed around for everybody to look at in the Superintendent's office before the floor tour.

TD

FredWeinberg

Hi guys – I’ve been out of town and just read the thread early this morning before I got on the plane

I call coins that have been struck once in a duel- feed collar “saddle double strikes” -
It’s a term I use to the note not a coin being struck twice by the same dies obviously ,but struck once
by duel-fed die set ups. If a planchet was somehow able to be struck by all four dies in a quad collar, I would call that a “saddle quad strike” or something very similar, to the note that the coin was struck on a quad die Press set up- as Tom, and Jon have said and I agree, I’ve never seen a quad strike coin –
At least one struck once with all four dies at the same time -I could be wrong on that, but I’m
Strongly certain one does not exist on any denomination.

As with many other terms used in our error segment of the hobby, such as ‘clipped planchet’,
Sometimes usage depends on if you want to be technical or conversational.

To answer Mike‘s question yes, I consider a saddle-strike to have two strikes on it due to dual dies and the resulting coin it looking like a saddle with the buckle- but I would have used the term “saddle double strike” if I described it for my own inventory, or as shown above when I used the term for a PCGS tag description. It means to me that coin was struck once with duel dies –double struck, but
‘Saddle’needed, imo

Some people would call that a double struck cent,
but with the addition of one word in front of it -“saddle” , an error collector can get a much better idea of not only how that particular double struck coin was produced, but a much better idea of what it might – repeat, might, look like.

That 1972 Ike/cent dies is a fun coin to see in-hand – and there is a probably similar-sourced 1973 Ike struck off-center on a 1923 peace dollar that was made a year after the above coin -and I bought that coin at the early- mid ANA in Philadelphia in the 1980s that would certainly be a good mate to the piece above

Batman23

I learned something new. Neat thread.

MWallace

Thank you @FredWeinberg . Your definition of the term(s) make sense 100%.

Mr Lindy

Happy Saturday Morning Fred!!!

The 1973 Ike struck off center on Peace Dollar was made at San Francisco Mint, the 1972 Ike struck by two Cent dies is from Philly Mint.

Shenanigans were afoot at more than one US Mint in early 1970's

Happy Travels!!!

Lindy

@FredWeinberg said:
Hi guys – I’ve been out of town and just read the thread early this morning before I got on the plane

I call coins that have been struck once in a duel- feed collar “saddle double strikes” -
It’s a term I use to the note not a coin being struck twice by the same dies obviously ,but struck once
by duel-fed die set ups. If a planchet was somehow able to be struck by all four dies in a quad collar, I would call that a “saddle quad strike” or something very similar, to the note that the coin was struck on a quad die Press set up- as Tom, and Jon have said and I agree, I’ve never seen a quad strike coin –
At least one struck once with all four dies at the same time -I could be wrong on that, but I’m
Strongly certain one does not exist on any denomination.

As with many other terms used in our error segment of the hobby, such as ‘clipped planchet’,
Sometimes usage depends on if you want to be technical or conversational.

To answer Mike‘s question yes, I consider a saddle-strike to have two strikes on it due to dual dies and the resulting coin it looking like a saddle with the buckle- but I would have used the term “saddle double strike” if I described it for my own inventory, or as shown above when I used the term for a PCGS tag description. It means to me that coin was struck once with duel dies –double struck, but
‘Saddle’needed, imo

Some people would call that a double struck cent,
but with the addition of one word in front of it -“saddle” , an error collector can get a much better idea of not only how that particular double struck coin was produced, but a much better idea of what it might – repeat, might, look like.

That 1972 Ike/cent dies is a fun coin to see in-hand – and there is a probably similar-sourced 1973 Ike struck off-center on a 1923 peace dollar that was made a year after the above coin -and I bought that coin at the early- mid ANA in Philadelphia in the 1980s that would certainly be a good mate to the piece above