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New So called dollar book is out and hot off the presses!

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    Mr_SpudMr_Spud Posts: 4,682 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for the heads up. I just ordered one too

    Mr_Spud

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,110 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2023 7:50AM

    Awesome! Jeff and Bill have really done an awesome job researching these medals! The new numbering system is nice and much more scalable as well.

    It's really nice to see PCGS and NGC starting to use SH numbers on their slabs, which they'll do for free. Hopefully, we'll see more slabs with SH numbers soon :)

    Here's the cover:

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice book... :# I must not buy this book... If I buy the book, I will start collecting/buying SCD's.... Must. Not. Buy. !!!! Cheers, RickO

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    MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,965 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Aside from a new numbering system and some previously unlisted medals what does yet another book offer besides fresh marketing?? Inquiring minds would like to know. :)

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,110 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2023 9:02AM

    @Maywood said:
    Aside from a new numbering system and some previously unlisted medals what does yet another book offer besides fresh marketing?? Inquiring minds would like to know. :)

    That's already a lot and worthwhile!

    Here's the way I think about it:

    1. New Numbering System which (a) has more consistent approach to identifying compositions and (b) allows better additions of new material. This is very evident in the existing HK cataloging of HK-27 / HK-27A and HK-29 / HK-29A compositions and varieties.
    2. Cataloging of new popularly discussed (but HK-unlisted) varieties of HK listed So-Called Dollars such as the 4 seated and 3 seated/1 standing varieties of Lovett's Declaration of Independence signing on HK-79 as SH 2-51 and SH 2-52.
    3. Cataloging of new compositions of HK-listed types such as HK-306 in gilt. In HK, HK-306 is only listed in brass but the specimens I've seen look gilt / plated and I have one where the gilt has worn off.
    4. Cataloging of new So-Called Dollars such as the1876 U.S. Centennial So-Called Dollars by Rudolf Laubenheimer cataloged as SH 2-86 to SH 2-90 are definitely worth cataloging to me.
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    MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,965 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So after all the discussions at this forum about "criteria for inclusion/exclusion" in the original work along with pooh-poohing about Hibler-Kappen not researching enough to find medals like SH2-86-90 we should now applaud the recognition of some nice 45mm medals??

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,110 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2023 9:19AM

    @Maywood said:
    So after all the discussions at this forum about "criteria for inclusion/exclusion" in the original work along with pooh-poohing about Hibler-Kappen not researching enough to find medals like SH2-86-90 we should now applaud the recognition of some nice 45mm medals??

    I didn't say "we should". I said this is the way "I think about it", and apparently Jeff and others as well.

    Others can think what they want, of course. This is part of what makes collecting so great.

    By the way, even maintainers of HK have expressed the opinion that Hibler and Kappen weren't aware of all medals worth cataloging.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,110 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2023 8:01AM

    Here's a great discussion I just had with Jeff on HK-306. In HK, this is listed in brass only, but the specimens I've seen don't look like brass. They look gold plated, both when fully plated and when the plating has worn off. Jeff and Bill's new book catalogs these as brass and gold plated.

    Both of these are mine:


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    TheMayorTheMayor Posts: 221 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    Awesome! Jeff and Bill have really done an awesome job researching these medals! The new numbering system is nice and much more scalable as well.

    It's really nice to see PCGS and NGC starting to use SH numbers on their slabs, which they'll do for free. Hopefully, we'll see more slabs with SH numbers soon :)

    I have not seen this yet. Are PCGS and NGC displaying SH numbers in addition to HK? Or is SH replacing HK?

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    GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for the link. Ordered one to add to the collection.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,110 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2023 9:21AM

    @TheMayor said:

    @Zoins said:
    Awesome! Jeff and Bill have really done an awesome job researching these medals! The new numbering system is nice and much more scalable as well.

    It's really nice to see PCGS and NGC starting to use SH numbers on their slabs, which they'll do for free. Hopefully, we'll see more slabs with SH numbers soon :)

    I have not seen this yet. Are PCGS and NGC displaying SH numbers in addition to HK? Or is SH replacing HK?

    Both SH and HK it seems. The ATS slab below has both HK and SH. There's no HK number for the PCGS slabbed medal since it isn't listed in HK.

    Images from and more info here:

    http://www.so-calleddollar.com/2021/10/ngc-is-not-going-to-charge-5-extra-to-put-shs-on-their-slabs/

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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,718 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Most of the Elder pieces will be in Volume 2, since they are not Exhibition related.

    A silly question: When an item is catalogued and numbered in multiple recognized references, can a submitter request a particular reference number appear on the slab? For example, if I were to submit a Brian Boru Crown, could I request that the label show the DeLorey number rather than the old HK number or the new SH number to come in Volume 2?

    TD

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,110 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2023 9:49AM

    @CaptHenway said:
    Most of the Elder pieces will be in Volume 2, since they are not Exhibition related.

    My understanding is the So-Called Dollars will be on Volume 2 but there will be a separate Elder catalog for medals like the following:

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,110 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2023 10:15AM

    @CaptHenway said:
    When an item is catalogued and numbered in multiple recognized references, can a submitter request a particular reference number appear on the slab? For example, if I were to submit a Brian Boru Crown, could I request that the label show the DeLorey number rather than the old HK number or the new SH number to come in Volume 2?

    Yes, you can request a number, but I'm not sure how the TPGs will respond. One issue I've seen is that if only one number is used, they aren't necessarily cross-referenced in the pop reports.

    Regarding DeLorey numbers, you may need to connect with PCGS and NGC on this. My understanding is that Jeff has direct communications with the TPGs on recognition of the SH numbers.

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    MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,965 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2023 10:46AM

    I hate to be the negative voice in all this but I have always been for a less cluttered holder insert and don't see the need for redundancy. To the question from @CaptHenway, throughout the Exonumia field there seem to be multiple references where items are listed and it is to the submitters discretion which one gets listed. With the edition of this book I suppose there might be some items which could be listed with as many as four sets of numbers.

    That's just a bit crazy.

    Another question: On the book cover it states From the 1853 New York Crystal Palace and I wonder why that arbitrary event was chosen when the "Erie Canal Completion" which is a very significant event was the initial starting point with HK listings. Also, since this new book seeks to update the listings, has HK-8 been removed??

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    Some_of_itSome_of_it Posts: 119 ✭✭✭

    My books on medals would seem incomplete without this. I’m in.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,110 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2023 2:59PM

    @Maywood said:
    I hate to be the negative voice in all this but I have always been for a less cluttered holder insert and don't see the need for redundancy. To the question from @CaptHenway, throughout the Exonumia field there seem to be multiple references where items are listed and it is to the submitters discretion which one gets listed. With the edition of this book I suppose there might be some items which could be listed with as many as four sets of numbers.

    That's just a bit crazy.

    We're already in a similar situation with Washingtonia. While auction houses will have multiple catalog numbers like HK, Baker, Musante, etc., TPGs may only use one, making it harder to track in the pop reports.

    For example, my HK-75A was listed as "Musante GW-830, Baker-388, var., HK-75a", but PCGS listed it as "GW-830".

    Anyone ever see a slab with Kenney numbers?

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,110 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2023 2:58PM

    @Maywood said:
    Another question: On the book cover it states From the 1853 New York Crystal Palace and I wonder why that arbitrary event was chosen when the "Erie Canal Completion" which is a very significant event was the initial starting point with HK listings.

    The Erie Canal Completion is an important event, but it's not an exposition so it may be more appropriate for Volume 2.

    @Maywood said:
    Also, since this new book seeks to update the listings, has HK-8 been removed??

    I don't see it on Jeff's website, but it may be best to order the book or ask Jeff @SoCalledGuy or Bill @Bsktmkr.

    http://www.so-calleddollar.com/about-so-called-dollars/

    http://www.so-calleddollar.com/category/1853-new-york-crystal-palace/

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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,718 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    Most of the Elder pieces will be in Volume 2, since they are not Exhibition related.

    My understanding is the So-Called Dollars will be on Volume 2 but there will be a separate Elder catalog for medals like the following:

    Correct. Volume II of the So-Called Dollar book will include those Elder pieces which qualify as So-Called Dollar. Obviously many of them do not.

    Jeff has told me that "The three of us will work on the Elder book after we (he and Bill Hyder) complete Volume II. In a few years."

    TD

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,110 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2023 12:22AM

    @CaptHenway said:

    @Zoins said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    Most of the Elder pieces will be in Volume 2, since they are not Exhibition related.

    My understanding is the So-Called Dollars will be on Volume 2 but there will be a separate Elder catalog for medals like the following:

    Correct. Volume II of the So-Called Dollar book will include those Elder pieces which qualify as So-Called Dollar. Obviously many of them do not.

    Jeff has told me that "The three of us will work on the Elder book after we (he and Bill Hyder) complete Volume II. In a few years."

    TD

    One thing I just learned is that Jeff and Bill's books were being discussed before H&K 2nd Edition and if they were out at that time, there would have been no reason to update H&K. Luckily we have both the updated H&K and S&H guides now.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,110 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2023 12:22AM

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