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No disrespect towards anyone- I really don't know the answer
jkrk
Posts: 967 ✭✭✭✭✭
I was always told to keep my slab purchases to PCGS & NGC. Recently, I was looking at a coin graded by ICG. I wsa trying to quantify my risk regarding . I understand I am talking about probabilities but...
a) likelihood the coin was restored and they didn't catch it?
b)Overgraded?
Reason people send their coins to ICG? I redally am naive re TPS's in the industry.
TY
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__Reason people send their coins to ICG?
Cost and turnaround time?
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
I have many nice, properly graded coins in both ANACS and ICG slabs. I even have coins that are raw.
I judge slabbed coins on their merits and I don't drink the Kool-Aid.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
ICG is trickier. Newer stuff is pretty solid. But they have had periods where that wasn't always true.
ICG and ANACS are good choices for authentication. They are generally solid on that. You won't maximize the dollars on the numerical grade, but for a circ key date coin, sometimes all you need is authentication. They are quicker and cheaper than the Big Two.
The value of the coin, and the grade has to be taken into consideration. They provide a low cost service with very fast turnaround times. Ive seen accurately graded coins in ICG holders, and I've seen egregiously over-graded coins in ICG holders. I wouldn't blink twice if it were a common dated Morgan or bullion grade gold in low MS, but when I see a $5000 coin in an ICG holder, or a condition rarity in a high MS grade, that's an automatic red flag for me.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
I hate to be that guy, and i'm sure all TPGs have made the mistake on more than one occasion, but I recently saw an ICG graded Omega HR counterfeit certified as genuine. I would agree that they are "generally" solid, but I have no clue if ICG has a reliable guarantee in place that measures up to P or N.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
I have ICG coins... I consider the coin when buying, and though not first tier TPG, I am happy with the ones I have. Check the coin closely, most will be fine... Consult or pass if not sure. Cheers, RickO
New or old holder? As I said, they have had some problem periods.
I just bought this IGC slabbed coin. Seems under graded ...
IIRC it was an earlier holder, and it was a knockout counterfeit so I’m not trying to discredit them, but everyone makes a mistake now and then. Like I said it’s really a non issue if their guarantee is reliable, to that I have no clue.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
If you are collecting because you enjoy it, buy what you like!
If you are buying coins as an investment, or for resale, then it is probably smarter to stick to PCGS/NGC, and although I personally don't get too excited about it, having a CAC sticker does indeed bring a premium in most cases.
I hope my simple reply helps somewhat.
My goal is to buy coins, not plastic. I've taken a few chances on ICG coins over the years and it has mostly turned out well... that said, I've taken chances on "the top two" and it has mostly turned out well. It usually comes down to the images in the auction. If the seller posts good pictures of the coin, then I'm a bit more confident that that's what it will look like "in hand". If the images are out of focus or low resolution or taken from the moon, then the seller might be trying to hide something... other than the fact they have poor photographic skills...
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
This made me laugh about the photo quality, because its so true. Ive seen so many sellers coin pics that look like a screencap from a bigfoot sighting video.
Successful BST transactions with....Coinslave87, ChrisH821, Walkerguy21D, SanctionII.......................Received "You Suck" award 02/18/23
The way to solve your problem ... learn to grade.
Trying to clear the backlog of things to do since I went into semi retirement.
Now.... I have cut down working to 10-12 hours / day. Most of the rest of the time is spent sleeping, family matters, and chores. Now ... you tell me to learn to grade? Thinking about it... I can slot out some time in the middle of the night when I have a number of bathroom breaks.
I dont think one can be serious about coin collecting in general and numismatics in particular if you dont put in the time to learn how to grade. Sure, I think people can accumulate coins in plastic... but you get out of this hobby only what you're willing to put into it... and this transcends money.
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
As long as you have a moderate understanding of the market and know how to grade/evaluate coins, then ICG is fine. The real problem is that the market generally does not "accept" ICG coins or put much of a premium on them. Just buy an ICG coin knowing that when you go to sell it, most people are going to treat it similarly to a raw coin. I have personally picked a nice ICG coin, cracked it, sent it to PCGS, and got a 1 point upgrade. They are out there.
I love me some ANACS, for authenticity and coin protection, at no greater cost over current raw:
I don’t know about undergraded (grade was not visible), but it certainly looks damaged …
🤭
best advice:buy whatever gets your notice it's a very simple approach and you will snag some nice coins that others overlooked cause of the grade or who graded it
Coins for sale at link below
https://photos.app.goo.gl/TyJbuBJf37WZ2KT19
Are you familiar with what both PCGS and NGC consider a straight grade when it comes to grading error coins that perhaps got stuck in a machine. Way way too many to count, endless examples out there
This coin is pristine to what the 2 big companies have put into error coin slabs.
Both ICG and ANACS will certify coins that NGC and PCGS won't. For example, we submit all Dan Carr coins to ANACS. ICG agreed to encapsulate an SLQ with an encased stamp for us. ANACS is also a good option for inexpensive mint errors, since the other services charge a (sometimes significant) premium for errors. However, our experience with ANACS and mint errors is that are very tight with their grading.
You need to assess the individual coin, not the holder. I've seen properly graded and undergraded stuff in ICG holders. I mostly deal with circulated early 1800's stuff, so there is a difference if you're buying UNC Morgans or Buffalos for example, which I personally would not trust them with (but mostly because I suck at grading both of them, meaning I can't do a proper assessment on the coin).
Early American Copper, Bust and Seated.
Years ago (many years ago), ok 50 years ago, I spent my pasttime at the racetrack. Was it my hobby? It was all about money and spending quite a bit of time attempting to understand how I might create an edge to profit from. That;s my life.. looking for an edge or giving up the pursuit. I did subscribe to the adage that if they held cocoroach races and they were fixed, I would bet anyway as long as I could understand how to beat the game.
I gave up the horses, too much time , no return. I moved on to trading equities/ commodities, little takeout, a lot of work and I understood all the intangibles. Meaning... I made a living for 40+ years which is how I determine whether to move on.
Trading plastic? I enjoy it. If you want my plastic... pay my price. If my judgement is poor, I still own some gold lodged in the plastic. I'll take losses. It doesn't bother me. If I can't make a return... I'm done. If my return doesn't warrant my time... or I lose interest, I'm done. I have a limited amount of time to devote and I didn't enter the hobby for the beauty of the coin but to play around with a small portion of my gold holding. Upgrade a bit or buy some historical piece at times is sufficient. Catching a bull market never hurts. I am proud to be a mercenary. In answer to your point, I am getting out of the hobby exactly what I want. I know my downside since every DE purchase, in my mind, is marked to spot . If I'm not happy with the hobby, I'll find another game.
My experience with ICG is very limited. I can tell you an ICG $10 Indian I purchased at F.U.N. 2019 turned in the holder within months due to puttying.
I may be naive, but I assumed the poster was referring to the second strike as "damage"
I've had PCGS and NGC gold coins that were puttied and later turned in the slab. Not sure what point you're trying to make.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Buy the coin and not the holder. Keep that in mind.
Like the ICG custom holders ...
When you sell, the buyer may not know how to grade.
This approach may work for coins that trade at or near bullion prices. You will mitigate losses and have faster turnover times with coins that are at least properly graded and accurately imaged. Being able to recognize those pieces will enhance your bottom line... but it might not be worth your investment in time.
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
Ignore the slab altogether and buy the coin for what it is.
I have a friend that uses ICG because he is good friends with the president and receives free submissions as a trade. Most of the coins are cleaned and straight graded.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
Kinda feels like reading analyst reports and watching CNBC to pick stocks instead leaning how to read and analyze SEC filings and company presentations. It’s a shortcut and may work, but you’re not going to maximize your return without putting in the work.
OP says he's not really good at grading and doesn't want to spend the time to learn, so buying it for what it is will always be a crapshoot.
One of the reasons....counterfeits.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Yes, you nailed it... Time is the issue. You are correct in much of what you say.
I do believe that slabbed coins in my price range $2000-$3500 (slabbed) are properly graded for the most part. The subjective nature is where the graded slabbed 64 falls on the curve? Hgher end or lower end? CAC tells a piece of that story. Otherwise TPG's do a relatively good job. When I buy a CAC coin, should I believe that both the grading sevice and CAC misgraded the coin? When I buy a non CAC coin I pay non CAC prices so I believe I understand basically what I bought. There is a satisfaction, learning to grade and buying a non CAC coin and turning it green. A price improvement? NO question. As you indicated, given that I'm relatively limited in time any net price improvement probably will be limited relative to the effort one needs to put in. Anyone who learns a trade should benefit financially. That's me.... I'm not speaking for anyone else.
Ignore the curmudgeon. Do whatever makes you happy.
BUT if you really can't visually validate a grade, you are better off sticking to NGC and PCGS. It is easier to determine the market value.
Who is the curmudgeon?
Skip and Randy at ICG are as good of graders as anybody.
If you can't tell, I'm not going to call him out.
Yep. Too many unknowns when life should be simple.
I have not followed ICG since their inception. I do remember that their original graders used to work at PCGS. I recall that their grading was very similar to PCGS and was solid. Apparently the Market didn't share my opinion and penalized ICG-graded coins with lower values.
I don't know how their grading is today (or the past 10/+ years). BTW, when did they start up??
The most important thing is to give your threads titles which describe the topic at hand.
It sounds like you're mainly dealing in $10 and $20 gold and not collecting. You're right, PCGS and NGC usually get MS Saints and Libs right. Being able to recognize the coins that could CAC (while they're still around) would maximize your profits, but avoiding 2nd and 3rd tier plastic would probably have the same net affect and cost you much less... in terms of time.
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
I think that's me... I resemble that comment
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
CAC wont sticker ICG coins.... Just to add to the thread.. HA!
FWIW:
I prefer PCGS to all others, because I like the look of the PCGS slab, and PCGS certainly is up there with NGC for reliability. But I don't distinguish between the two, when buying coins. The vast majority of my slabs are PCGS and NGC.
I have a relatively small number of ANACS slabs, both old and new; I was careful each time, both in how much I paid and in being as sure as I could be that the grading was reasonable.
I have one ICG-graded coin (a recent slab, of a 1933-S walking liberty half dollar in AU58), which I believe is correctly graded, for which I paid significantly less than the Greysheet guide price.
I suspect the market doesn't mind ICG-graded coins, but will discount them compared to PCGS and NGC. That's ok with me, especially if I got it at a price significantly less than I might expect to pay for a PCGS- or NGC-graded copy.
If you’re looking to flip $2500-$3000 ICG double eagles I don’t there’s a lot of upside potential after factoring in grading and CAC fees along with shipping. You also run the risk of multiple grading fees for the same coin.
Worse: when your heirs [have to] sell, they might not know how to grade.
You have to start somewhere. NO ONE learns to grade overnight. I've been at this for over 40 years now.
Am I a better grader than when I started? Yes. Am I perfect? No. i learned from looking at coins and also
selling duplicates to get an idea if my judgement was correct. The market is the ultimate decider if a coin
is correctly graded. I worked 50 + hours a week and am now semi-retired so I understand time constraints.
However, if you're spending serious money (I realize that can vary greatly from person to person) ,
it's in your best interest to invest some time along with your money.
A couple years ago I bought a 1921 Peace $1 graded MS62 in an ICG holder on eBay. It looked great in hand, so I cracked her out and sent her to our hosts. Came back an MS64.