they're more concerned about doing things right than with doing more business. And that doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.
The entire purpose of a business is to make money. It is fair, we all have to eat and stay warm. I kinda get the altruistic angle but really when it is all said and done - you did it to make money. I farm and own a high tech company but I know I am not good at certain other jobs - hence why I pay others to do those.
I’m sure that CAC doesn’t intend to lose money, but there’s a lot of things they could change, or could have changed in the past to increase the bottom line, if that was their primary purpose. I feel that many on this forum have a real hard time believing that JA could possibly have the best interest of collectors at heart, and that this endeavor may not be as financially motivated as they believe. They’re not some behemoth corporation trying to squeeze out every last drop from us. I’m sure they could have kept the $35 minimum tier, opened up new membership (to which there is a line of people waiting at the door), and JA could have retired in a few years and lived happily ever after with a successful low overhead business, rather than go through the rigamarole of starting a whole new grading company from scratch.
they're more concerned about doing things right than with doing more business. And that doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.
The entire purpose of a business is to make money. It is fair, we all have to eat and stay warm. I kinda get the altruistic angle but really when it is all said and done - you did it to make money. I farm and own a high tech company but I know I am not good at certain other jobs - hence why I pay others to do those.
Not all businesses are started with the entire purpose of making money. Some of them actually have other motivations and goals. But I understand that many of us have a hard time seeing things from a point of view other than our own.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@BStrauss3 said:
They will have to keep demand down to capacity -
Only in this industry does a statement like that get uttered. I will never understand why numismatic companies refuse to scale their businesses to meet demand. Can you imagine Ford, Walmart, Apple etc trying to keep demand down?
Most personal service companies do exactly that.
The quote up-thread said they were only looking to do 500 coins a month. What do you think the cash flow turnover needs to be to support the staff and facilities on 500 coins?????
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
@DeplorableDan said:
I feel that many on this forum have a real hard time believing that JA could possibly have the best interest of collectors at heart, and that this endeavor may not be as financially motivated as they believe. They’re not some behemoth corporation trying to squeeze out every last drop from us.
It doesn't take a long time reading posts here to realize there truly are those who believe that nobody would do anything like this except to make a pile of money.
@DeplorableDan said:
I feel that many on this forum have a real hard time believing that JA could possibly have the best interest of collectors at heart, and that this endeavor may not be as financially motivated as they believe. They’re not some behemoth corporation trying to squeeze out every last drop from us.
It doesn't take a long time reading posts here to realize there truly are those who believe that nobody would do anything like this except to make a pile of money.
He’s going to make a pile of money by having a good product that people want to pay for. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.
@DeplorableDan said:
I feel that many on this forum have a real hard time believing that JA could possibly have the best interest of collectors at heart, and that this endeavor may not be as financially motivated as they believe. They’re not some behemoth corporation trying to squeeze out every last drop from us.
It doesn't take a long time reading posts here to realize there truly are those who believe that nobody would do anything like this except to make a pile of money.
He’s going to make a pile of money by having a good product that people want to pay for. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.
Just a quick question in case anyone knows. My friend's CAC membership expired. The site is clear about not allowing new members, but he's called and emailed with no response as to whether he can renew. Anyone know if CAC is allowing renewals for expired members?
@ProofCollection said:
Just a quick question in case anyone knows. My friend's CAC membership expired. The site is clear about not allowing new members, but he's called and emailed with no response as to whether he can renew. Anyone know if CAC is allowing renewals for expired members?
That's interesting. I've not been told there is an expiration date for my membership. Since there is no fee to be a collector member, why would it expire?
@ProofCollection said:
Just a quick question in case anyone knows. My friend's CAC membership expired. The site is clear about not allowing new members, but he's called and emailed with no response as to whether he can renew. Anyone know if CAC is allowing renewals for expired members?
That's interesting. I've not been told there is an expiration date for my membership. Since there is no fee to be a collector member, why would it expire?
your membership does not expire - I have never sent them a membership fee and I have been a collector member for close to 20 years.
@ProofCollection said:
Just a quick question in case anyone knows. My friend's CAC membership expired. The site is clear about not allowing new members, but he's called and emailed with no response as to whether he can renew. Anyone know if CAC is allowing renewals for expired members?
That's interesting. I've not been told there is an expiration date for my membership. Since there is no fee to be a collector member, why would it expire?
your membership does not expire - I have never sent them a membership fee and I have been a collector member for close to 20 years.
I’ve only been a member for a couple of years and have yet to use the service. I hope I’m still good.
@ProofCollection said:
Just a quick question in case anyone knows. My friend's CAC membership expired. The site is clear about not allowing new members, but he's called and emailed with no response as to whether he can renew. Anyone know if CAC is allowing renewals for expired members?
That's interesting. I've not been told there is an expiration date for my membership. Since there is no fee to be a collector member, why would it expire?
I have never sent them a membership fee
This is a great example that supports the point being made in my last comment.
@JimTyler said:
Pretty clear the next gimmick. Stickers on CAC holders.
I can see PCGS offering a similar stickering service some day for coins in NGC or CACG slabs. Those coins that meet the strict PCGS standards would earn the PCGS sticker and those coins would then be allowed to be included in the PCGS registry sets. NGC could follow suit and offer a similar stickering service for PCGS and CAC slabs. It would be a popular service and would be an easy money maker.
That sounds quite similar to their (already existent) crossover service.😉
Not even close. Take an NGC coin and try to enter it into a PCGS registry - not going to happen. The idea is a good one, PCGS agreeing on the grade, stickering it and then you could add it into a registry set. IMO nGC is the best since they will allow PCGS coins. I probably just got banned - sorry.
Sorry, but while that might be good for you, that would not be a sound business decision for PCGS. Under the current system, PCGS forces you to get their slabs for their registry - hence the crossover. Why would they want to encourage you to use other grading services? It protects their brand to insist on crossovers rather than offer a cheaper sticker alternative.
The problem is that with a 3rd respectable contender (PCGS, NGC, and CAC - Sorry ANACS, ICG), the PCGS registry almost has to change to allow competitor slabs. It was probably OK when it was just PCGS or NGC and then you could get the sticker, but with CAC being an attractive and viable alternative, I think fewer and fewer collectors will aspire (and limit themselves) to a PCGS-only registry set. And if you're not competing with other top collections, what's the point?
For PCGS, the point is to make money. They have a choice between seeing an exodus of high-end collectors to CACG and the CACG registry, or they can come up with a plan to allow CACG in their registry. If they are smart, they will do it in a way that allows them to make money, which is some way of certifying PCGS concurrence without reholdering something slabbed by CACG.
Yes, in my opinion too PCGS has a goal of balancing trying to make nice profits for their shareholders, while at the same time trying to provide good services at a fair value for their customers.
While I’m a BIG fan of CAC and CACG, I doubt there’s going to be a significant exodus of high end collectors from PCGS. As such, I highly doubt PCGS will be allowing CACG holders in their Registry. While I’ll be sticking with the PCGS Registry and also partaking in both of the upcoming CACG Registries, I wish PCGS would allow the CACG holders, but I’d be shocked if they did. Call me out on this point down the road if I’m wrong.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@DeplorableDan said:
I feel that many on this forum have a real hard time believing that JA could possibly have the best interest of collectors at heart, and that this endeavor may not be as financially motivated as they believe. They’re not some behemoth corporation trying to squeeze out every last drop from us.
It doesn't take a long time reading posts here to realize there truly are those who believe that nobody would do anything like this except to make a pile of money.
He’s going to make a pile of money by having a good product that people want to pay for. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.
Sorry for disagreeing again, but my understanding is that CACG has made business decisions that will mitigate the pile of money concept. Yes, I believe they want to make a profit, but their main goal is to provide the numismatic community a first class superior product.
One example is they plan on spending millions of dollars putting together grading sets that can go on exhibit at major shows for the main purpose of educating collectors! While the coins in those grading sets will have value, the millions spent on that won’t be providing any direct cash flow. That’s a headwind against making piles of money.
A second example is they have absolutely no intention of being BIG. They prefer to just be real good! Without being BIG, it’s tough to make piles of money.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
While I’m a BIG fan of CAC and CACG, I doubt there’s going to be a significant exodus of high end collectors from PCGS. As such, I highly doubt PCGS will be allowing CACG holders in their Registry. While I’ll be sticking with the PCGS Registry and also partaking in both of the upcoming CACG Registries, I wish they would allow the CACG holders, but I’d be shocked if they did. Call me out n this point down the road if I’m wrong.
Steve
PCGS has been successful in limiting their Set Regisrty to PCGS coins because they are perceived to be the premium third party grading service. NGC appears to have the modern coin volume. If CACG grading is perceived to be superior, their Set Registry could become more prestigious; especially since it intends to include previously graded PCGS and NGC CAC coins. On that basis PCGS may throw in the towel and allow CACG (and possibly NGC holders).
Remember, Cadillac used to be "The Standard of the World."
While I’m a BIG fan of CAC and CACG, I doubt there’s going to be a significant exodus of high end collectors from PCGS. As such, I highly doubt PCGS will be allowing CACG holders in their Registry. While I’ll be sticking with the PCGS Registry and also partaking in both of the upcoming CACG Registries, I wish they would allow the CACG holders, but I’d be shocked if they did. Call me out n this point down the road if I’m wrong.
Steve
PCGS has been successful in limiting their Set Regisrty to PCGS coins because they are perceived to be the premium third party grading service. NGC appears to have the modern coin volume. If CACG grading is perceived to be superior, their Set Registry could become more prestigious; especially since it intends to include previously graded PCGS and NGC CAC coins. On that basis PCGS may throw in the towel and allow CACG (and possibly NGC holders).
Remember, Cadillac used to be "The Standard of the World."
Except there is a theoretical limit. After all, the coin is the coin. If a CAC 64+ = PCGS 65 = NGC 65+, then at some point collectors and the market should simply adjust to this reality until the next grading company comes along and makes NEWCOMPANY 64 = CAC 64+.
PCGS has been successful in limiting their Set Regisrty to PCGS coins because they are perceived to be the premium third party grading service. NGC appears to have the modern coin volume. If CACG grading is perceived to be superior, their Set Registry could become more prestigious; especially since it intends to include previously graded PCGS and NGC CAC coins. On that basis PCGS may throw in the towel and allow CACG (and possibly NGC holders).
Remember, Cadillac used to be "The Standard of the World."
Except there is a theoretical limit. After all, the coin is the coin. If a CAC 64+ = PCGS 65 = NGC 65+, then at some point collectors and the market should simply adjust to this reality until the next grading company comes along and makes NEWCOMPANY 64 = CAC 64+.
A CACG Registry would only accept PCGS CAC and NGC CAC coins. However, it may not give bonuses for PCGS CAC and NGC CAC "+" coins.
PCGS has been successful in limiting their Set Regisrty to PCGS coins because they are perceived to be the premium third party grading service. NGC appears to have the modern coin volume. If CACG grading is perceived to be superior, their Set Registry could become more prestigious; especially since it intends to include previously graded PCGS and NGC CAC coins. On that basis PCGS may throw in the towel and allow CACG (and possibly NGC holders).
Remember, Cadillac used to be "The Standard of the World."
Except there is a theoretical limit. After all, the coin is the coin. If a CAC 64+ = PCGS 65 = NGC 65+, then at some point collectors and the market should simply adjust to this reality until the next grading company comes along and makes NEWCOMPANY 64 = CAC 64+.
A CACG Registry would only accept PCGS CAC and NGC CAC coins. However, it may not give bonuses for PCGS CAC and NGC CAC "+" coins.
Actually, you are incorrect on both points:
CACG will be having TWO Registries. One of those two will accept PCGS and NGC coins without CAC stickers, along with PCGS and NGC holders with stickers, along with CACG holders. It’s their other Registry that will ONLY accept PCGS and NGC holders if they have a CAC sticker, along with CACG holders.
Both of the above two CACG Registries will indeed be recognizing plus grades by giving more Registry points to those than holders with just a whole grade. This applies to PCGS, NGC, and CACG holders. So even though a PCGS or NGC stickered coin with a plus grade may be deemed by CACG to be a “B” coin, in the CACG Registries those PCGS and NGC coins with a plus will get the extra registry points. This also applies to the first (less restrictive) CACG Registry that allows PCGS and NGC coins without stickers. Those with plus grades will still get recognition for the pluses despite not having a CAC sticker.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@ProofCollection said:
Just a quick question in case anyone knows. My friend's CAC membership expired. The site is clear about not allowing new members, but he's called and emailed with no response as to whether he can renew. Anyone know if CAC is allowing renewals for expired members?
Interesting thread. I don’t believe CAC memberships expire… When the new slabs hit, the market will be quick to sort it all out. These are very interesting times in the coin market.
@Coin Finder said:
Interesting thread. I don’t believe CAC memberships expire… When the new slabs hit the market will be quick to sort it all out. These are very interesting times in the coin market.
Agree, If I'm the CEO at Collectors Universe I would have a strategic team in place looking at the changing marketplace with a mission to put out a set of actions to keep PCGS as a leader in the industry.
There are different tiers in the market. If you look at it like a pyramid, it takes a tremendous amount of relatively inexpensive album-type coins to support the next level of barely-worth slabbing stuff. All of that is underneath the 3 and 4-figure slabbed stuff, and then the 5/6/7 figure coins. The current discussion is virtually meaningless for the bottom of the pyramid and enormously important at the pointy top. In-between (where most of us live) it's nuanced.
A huge percentage of the PCGS/NGC slabbed coins are moderns and lower-value classic stuff that was barely worth sending in for TPG grading at all, let alone sending in for a sticker.
Aside from all that, I imagine JA makes the majority of his money outside of the sticker/grading service. In other words, it's likely his side-gig.
I find it kind of laughable that people somehow believe that new material identified as "high end material" will be the bulk of coins graded by any service going forward. That stuff doesn't grow on trees and I'd think that most of it's been submitted and holdered at one point or another.
If CACG proves over time to be superior, owners of these coins will have to choose. Keep their coins in their current registry, or play the crackout game diluting the populations (again) in the process.
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
@DollarAfterDollar said:
I find it kind of laughable that people somehow believe that new material identified as "high end material" will be the bulk of coins graded by any service going forward. That stuff doesn't grow on trees and I'd think that most of it's been submitted and holdered at one point or another.
If CACG proves over time to be superior, owners of these coins will have to choose. Keep their coins in their current registry, or play the crackout game diluting the populations (again) in the process.
That prompts a question I've always had. Does anyone know if the TPGs have any agreements that they communicate to each other the coins that get crossed in order to help population reporting?
@DollarAfterDollar said:
I find it kind of laughable that people somehow believe that new material identified as "high end material" will be the bulk of coins graded by any service going forward. That stuff doesn't grow on trees and I'd think that most of it's been submitted and holdered at one point or another.
If CACG proves over time to be superior, owners of these coins will have to choose. Keep their coins in their current registry, or play the crackout game diluting the populations (again) in the process.
That prompts a question I've always had. Does anyone know if the TPGs have any agreements that they communicate to each other the coins that get crossed in order to help population reporting?
Not that I’m aware of, but on the CAC forum a suggestion was made that they automatically send old certs back to PCGs and NGC to keep populations accurate, and JA agreed that that would probably be a good idea. Otherwise, they would just get mailed back to us and we’re supposed to mail them to the previous TPG.
@DollarAfterDollar said:
I find it kind of laughable that people somehow believe that new material identified as "high end material" will be the bulk of coins graded by any service going forward. That stuff doesn't grow on trees and I'd think that most of it's been submitted and holdered at one point or another.
If CACG proves over time to be superior, owners of these coins will have to choose. Keep their coins in their current registry, or play the crackout game diluting the populations (again) in the process.
That prompts a question I've always had. Does anyone know if the TPGs have any agreements that they communicate to each other the coins that get crossed in order to help population reporting?
I would think that they return one another's labels when the grading service does the crackout, but the many coins cracked and resubmitted for regrade, those labels are at the mercy of them person with the hammer.
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
@DollarAfterDollar said:
I find it kind of laughable that people somehow believe that new material identified as "high end material" will be the bulk of coins graded by any service going forward. That stuff doesn't grow on trees and I'd think that most of it's been submitted and holdered at one point or another.
If CACG proves over time to be superior, owners of these coins will have to choose. Keep their coins in their current registry, or play the crackout game diluting the populations (again) in the process.
That prompts a question I've always had. Does anyone know if the TPGs have any agreements that they communicate to each other the coins that get crossed in order to help population reporting?
I would think that they return one another's labels when the grading service does the crackout, but the many coins cracked and resubmitted for regrade, those labels are at the mercy of them person with the hammer.
I just crossed an NGC 1868 $20 to PCGS and they sent me the cert back. I once bought an 1868 half and I had been searching for years for one. So I finally find one its a POP 12/1 at PCGS. So I go through the auction records and find 11 examples of the POP1 coin previously being the lower grade. I document all of them send it to PCGS and those of the same coin to NGC. Now mine is a POP1/1 People don't do themselves a favor by sending them in or the grading services don't remove them. I know in the last two months I got the cert back so it is on me to send it in to NGC.
@ProofCollection said:
That prompts a question I've always had. Does anyone know if the TPGs have any agreements that they communicate to each other the coins that get crossed in order to help population reporting?
They do not. It is proprietary information.
Each of the TPGs has a program where they accept returned labels from crack outs with a nominal reward, like 50 cents.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
@DollarAfterDollar said:
I find it kind of laughable that people somehow believe that new material identified as "high end material" will be the bulk of coins graded by any service going forward. That stuff doesn't grow on trees and I'd think that most of it's been submitted and holdered at one point or another.
If CACG proves over time to be superior, owners of these coins will have to choose. Keep their coins in their current registry, or play the crackout game diluting the populations (again) in the process.
The audience for CACG has already bought into the mythos of CAC. They'll be at the front of the line pressing on the velvet rope screaming "Pick me, Pick me" to the bouncers.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
@DollarAfterDollar said:
I find it kind of laughable that people somehow believe that new material identified as "high end material" will be the bulk of coins graded by any service going forward. That stuff doesn't grow on trees and I'd think that most of it's been submitted and holdered at one point or another.
If CACG proves over time to be superior, owners of these coins will have to choose. Keep their coins in their current registry, or play the crackout game diluting the populations (again) in the process.
The audience for CACG has already bought into the mythos of CAC. They'll be at the front of the line pressing on the velvet rope screaming "Pick me, Pick me" to the bouncers.
As opposed to the mythos of PCGS where the people have already crossed the rope?
@BStrauss3 said:
The audience for CACG has already bought into the mythos of CAC. They'll be at the front of the line pressing on the velvet rope screaming "Pick me, Pick me" to the bouncers.
You mean people willing to pay for a service they perceive to have value? Isn't that a pretty normal thing to do?
@jayPem said:
🤯
What would happen if collectors wised up and lost interest in this circus?
What circus are you talking about? You mean the process of identifying the better coins within a grade and putting a sticker on its slab? Why is that a circus? Seems to me a smart concept that helps assess value of a coin............... As a collector, any info I can get for around $15 that provides me a better assessment of coin values, is well, priceless.........................
Coins do not pass at CAC for four basic reasons
1. Over dipping (luster)
2. Artificial toning
3. PVC
4. Over graded
For PCGS to offer stickers, it would need to assemble a crack grading team to catch the errors PCGS originally missed.
Huh, that is weird, 90% of the CAC rejects I have had come back with a sticker "Cleaned long ago", or "Old Cleaning" in JAs hand writing. Reason 5?
Although there are overlapping considerations involved, I think one of the most frequent reasons wasn't even listed:
In the opinion of CAC, the coin wasn't solid (or better) for the assigned grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Coins do not pass at CAC for four basic reasons
1. Over dipping (luster)
2. Artificial toning
3. PVC
4. Over graded
For PCGS to offer stickers, it would need to assemble a crack grading team to catch the errors PCGS originally missed.
Huh, that is weird, 90% of the CAC rejects I have had come back with a sticker "Cleaned long ago", or "Old Cleaning" in JAs hand writing. Reason 5?
Although there are overlapping considerations involved, I think one of the most frequent reasons wasn't even listed:
In the opinion of CAC, the coin wasn't solid (or better) for the assigned grade.
You are correct in that it was not listed as one of the four by @DisneyFan, but shortly after he posted his four, I pointed out the same one you did - Failing a CAC is often due to it being a "C" coin.
As my late wife would often say to me, "Steve, if your arms were any longer, you could pat yourself on the back.", lol.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
Coins do not pass at CAC for four basic reasons
1. Over dipping (luster)
2. Artificial toning
3. PVC
4. Over graded
For PCGS to offer stickers, it would need to assemble a crack grading team to catch the errors PCGS originally missed.
Huh, that is weird, 90% of the CAC rejects I have had come back with a sticker "Cleaned long ago", or "Old Cleaning" in JAs hand writing. Reason 5?
Although there are overlapping considerations involved, I think one of the most frequent reasons wasn't even listed:
In the opinion of CAC, the coin wasn't solid (or better) for the assigned grade.
You are correct in that it was not listed as one of the four by @DisneyFan, but shortly after he posted his four, I pointed out the same one you did - Failing a CAC is often due to it being a "C" coin.
As my late wife would often say to me, "Steve, if your arms were any longer, you could pat yourself on the back.", lol.
Steve
In that case, let me assist:
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
OK, I was late to the party here. Another CAC thread! Haven't had one here for a few weeks (?). Just spent 30 minutes reading through all 5 pages, and you know what? I did not learn anything that wasn't already in the previous CAC threads............
Comments
I’m sure that CAC doesn’t intend to lose money, but there’s a lot of things they could change, or could have changed in the past to increase the bottom line, if that was their primary purpose. I feel that many on this forum have a real hard time believing that JA could possibly have the best interest of collectors at heart, and that this endeavor may not be as financially motivated as they believe. They’re not some behemoth corporation trying to squeeze out every last drop from us. I’m sure they could have kept the $35 minimum tier, opened up new membership (to which there is a line of people waiting at the door), and JA could have retired in a few years and lived happily ever after with a successful low overhead business, rather than go through the rigamarole of starting a whole new grading company from scratch.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
Not all businesses are started with the entire purpose of making money. Some of them actually have other motivations and goals. But I understand that many of us have a hard time seeing things from a point of view other than our own.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Most personal service companies do exactly that.
The quote up-thread said they were only looking to do 500 coins a month. What do you think the cash flow turnover needs to be to support the staff and facilities on 500 coins?????
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
It doesn't take a long time reading posts here to realize there truly are those who believe that nobody would do anything like this except to make a pile of money.
He’s going to make a pile of money by having a good product that people want to pay for. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.
Of course not. I wasn't suggesting they were.
Just a quick question in case anyone knows. My friend's CAC membership expired. The site is clear about not allowing new members, but he's called and emailed with no response as to whether he can renew. Anyone know if CAC is allowing renewals for expired members?
That's interesting. I've not been told there is an expiration date for my membership. Since there is no fee to be a collector member, why would it expire?
your membership does not expire - I have never sent them a membership fee and I have been a collector member for close to 20 years.
I’ve only been a member for a couple of years and have yet to use the service. I hope I’m still good.
This is a great example that supports the point being made in my last comment.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Sorry for disagreeing again, but my understanding is that CACG has made business decisions that will mitigate the pile of money concept. Yes, I believe they want to make a profit, but their main goal is to provide the numismatic community a first class superior product.
One example is they plan on spending millions of dollars putting together grading sets that can go on exhibit at major shows for the main purpose of educating collectors! While the coins in those grading sets will have value, the millions spent on that won’t be providing any direct cash flow. That’s a headwind against making piles of money.
A second example is they have absolutely no intention of being BIG. They prefer to just be real good! Without being BIG, it’s tough to make piles of money.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
PCGS has been successful in limiting their Set Regisrty to PCGS coins because they are perceived to be the premium third party grading service. NGC appears to have the modern coin volume. If CACG grading is perceived to be superior, their Set Registry could become more prestigious; especially since it intends to include previously graded PCGS and NGC CAC coins. On that basis PCGS may throw in the towel and allow CACG (and possibly NGC holders).
Remember, Cadillac used to be "The Standard of the World."
How will CACG coins be valued in CPG? When will they be on eBay?
Except there is a theoretical limit. After all, the coin is the coin. If a CAC 64+ = PCGS 65 = NGC 65+, then at some point collectors and the market should simply adjust to this reality until the next grading company comes along and makes NEWCOMPANY 64 = CAC 64+.
A CACG Registry would only accept PCGS CAC and NGC CAC coins. However, it may not give bonuses for PCGS CAC and NGC CAC "+" coins.
Actually, you are incorrect on both points:
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Let’s see we have had the term grade inflation so new term coming up holder inflation?
So will CACG have a guarantee? If so, where can I read it?
I'm not aware of them having an expiration date
Have you tried the CAC site?
When they exist...
Jeesh...
I got a business plan for 7 minute abs.
Yes
Interesting thread. I don’t believe CAC memberships expire… When the new slabs hit, the market will be quick to sort it all out. These are very interesting times in the coin market.
Agree, If I'm the CEO at Collectors Universe I would have a strategic team in place looking at the changing marketplace with a mission to put out a set of actions to keep PCGS as a leader in the industry.
My big picture overview:
Number on ebay:
CAC 6700, PCGS 220,000, NGC 280,000, ANACS 34,000, ICG 14,000
PCGS, NGC undisputed leaders. Any of the others have a ways to go.
While PCGS and NGC are the undisputed leaders, the number of coins listed for sale on eBay is just one of a number of different factors to consider.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
There are different tiers in the market. If you look at it like a pyramid, it takes a tremendous amount of relatively inexpensive album-type coins to support the next level of barely-worth slabbing stuff. All of that is underneath the 3 and 4-figure slabbed stuff, and then the 5/6/7 figure coins. The current discussion is virtually meaningless for the bottom of the pyramid and enormously important at the pointy top. In-between (where most of us live) it's nuanced.
A huge percentage of the PCGS/NGC slabbed coins are moderns and lower-value classic stuff that was barely worth sending in for TPG grading at all, let alone sending in for a sticker.
Aside from all that, I imagine JA makes the majority of his money outside of the sticker/grading service. In other words, it's likely his side-gig.
So no one knows? The CAC site is silent.
I don’t know, but can’t imagine that they wouldn’t have a guarantee.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I find it kind of laughable that people somehow believe that new material identified as "high end material" will be the bulk of coins graded by any service going forward. That stuff doesn't grow on trees and I'd think that most of it's been submitted and holdered at one point or another.
If CACG proves over time to be superior, owners of these coins will have to choose. Keep their coins in their current registry, or play the crackout game diluting the populations (again) in the process.
That prompts a question I've always had. Does anyone know if the TPGs have any agreements that they communicate to each other the coins that get crossed in order to help population reporting?
Not that I’m aware of, but on the CAC forum a suggestion was made that they automatically send old certs back to PCGs and NGC to keep populations accurate, and JA agreed that that would probably be a good idea. Otherwise, they would just get mailed back to us and we’re supposed to mail them to the previous TPG.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
I would think that they return one another's labels when the grading service does the crackout, but the many coins cracked and resubmitted for regrade, those labels are at the mercy of them person with the hammer.
I just crossed an NGC 1868 $20 to PCGS and they sent me the cert back. I once bought an 1868 half and I had been searching for years for one. So I finally find one its a POP 12/1 at PCGS. So I go through the auction records and find 11 examples of the POP1 coin previously being the lower grade. I document all of them send it to PCGS and those of the same coin to NGC. Now mine is a POP1/1 People don't do themselves a favor by sending them in or the grading services don't remove them. I know in the last two months I got the cert back so it is on me to send it in to NGC.
They do not. It is proprietary information.
Each of the TPGs has a program where they accept returned labels from crack outs with a nominal reward, like 50 cents.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
The audience for CACG has already bought into the mythos of CAC. They'll be at the front of the line pressing on the velvet rope screaming "Pick me, Pick me" to the bouncers.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
As opposed to the mythos of PCGS where the people have already crossed the rope?
More like jumping an elasmobranch fish of the clade Selachimorpha.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
You mean people willing to pay for a service they perceive to have value? Isn't that a pretty normal thing to do?
Huh, that is weird, 90% of the CAC rejects I have had come back with a sticker "Cleaned long ago", or "Old Cleaning" in JAs hand writing. Reason 5?
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10 ≠ 2
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What circus are you talking about? You mean the process of identifying the better coins within a grade and putting a sticker on its slab? Why is that a circus? Seems to me a smart concept that helps assess value of a coin............... As a collector, any info I can get for around $15 that provides me a better assessment of coin values, is well, priceless.........................
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Although there are overlapping considerations involved, I think one of the most frequent reasons wasn't even listed:
In the opinion of CAC, the coin wasn't solid (or better) for the assigned grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You are correct in that it was not listed as one of the four by @DisneyFan, but shortly after he posted his four, I pointed out the same one you did - Failing a CAC is often due to it being a "C" coin.
As my late wife would often say to me, "Steve, if your arms were any longer, you could pat yourself on the back.", lol.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
In that case, let me assist:
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
10=2 mod 2
OK, I was late to the party here. Another CAC thread! Haven't had one here for a few weeks (?). Just spent 30 minutes reading through all 5 pages, and you know what? I did not learn anything that wasn't already in the previous CAC threads............
Can't wait for the next Vault Box thread.
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