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Former Wall Street Precious Metal Traders Sentenced for Fraud

derrybderryb Posts: 36,022 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited March 10, 2023 1:04PM in Precious Metals

The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

Comments

  • ike126ike126 Posts: 802 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wonder if they'll just be hit with a fine and carry on like JP Morgan SMH

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Good to see a bit of justice administered. Cheers, RickO

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,266 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My question is, "where did the funds go?" I'm assuming that the money didn't all go into the traders' individual accounts directly, but that they also "earned" some hefty bonuses. Either way, how could management be totally unaware of what was going on?

    If they were trading on behalf of bank clients, did management just look the other way as long as the results were positive? If these guys were also teaching other traders their same methodology, I would think that the word got out.

    Managements should be investigated and held accountable.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,133 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Useful link, but worth noting that the existence of spoofing has been widely acknowledged on this board.

    A key sentence in the DOJ report: the spoofing activities "fraudulently pushed market prices up or down"

    Higashiyama
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,266 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A key sentence in the DOJ report: the spoofing activities "fraudulently pushed market prices up or down"

    And the salient question remains, "who benefited from the activities?"

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,133 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And the salient question remains, "who benefited from the activities?

    The traders, and their employers ... until they got caught. :D

    Higashiyama
  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,293 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The "spoofers" typically pump prices higher. The PM crown has always amazed me with the conspiracy theories of all the manipulators only suppressing the price of the gutter. Crazy world. RGDS!

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,022 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Higashiyama said:
    Useful link, but worth noting that the existence of spoofing has been widely acknowledged on this board.

    and many of those on this board do not see spoofing as price manipulation. LOL

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭✭

    @ricko said:
    Good to see a bit of justice administered. Cheers, RickO

    Did they move the prices up or down ?

    This "crime" is akin to calling a real estate broker about a home's price when you have no intention of buying. It's called price discovery.

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    @Higashiyama said:
    Useful link, but worth noting that the existence of spoofing has been widely acknowledged on this board.

    and many of those on this board do not see spoofing as price manipulation. LOL

    Is it manipulation UP or DOWN, Derry ?

    It's usually minute moves that are very small.

    Technically illegal, yes....but my guess is it might not pass muster with the courts.

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭✭

    @Higashiyama said:
    And the salient question remains, "who benefited from the activities?

    The traders, and their employers ... until they got caught. :D

    What if their clients wanted to buy LOWER ?

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,022 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @derryb said:

    @Higashiyama said:
    Useful link, but worth noting that the existence of spoofing has been widely acknowledged on this board.

    and many of those on this board do not see spoofing as price manipulation. LOL

    Is it manipulation UP or DOWN, Derry ?

    It's usually minute moves that are very small.

    Technically illegal, yes....but my guess is it might not pass muster with the courts.

    it passes muster every time charges are brought

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,323 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ike126 said:
    I wonder if they'll just be hit with a fine and carry on like JP Morgan SMH

    And others 🙂

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,889 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @ricko said:
    Good to see a bit of justice administered. Cheers, RickO

    Did they move the prices up or down ?

    This "crime" is akin to calling a real estate broker about a home's price when you have no intention of buying. It's called price discovery.

    Hardly the same.

    Price manipulation, they way they did it, is a crime (as evidenced by the fact that they were sentenced for committing said crimes). Asking about the price of a home is not a crime.

  • HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,133 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree with @dcarr above. It's a bit hard to find an appropriate analogy to the home real estate market, but it might be more like adding large numbers of listings to the MLIS that you never intend to sell, with the hope of driving prices down for a brief period.

    Higashiyama
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,022 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2023 1:07PM

    @Higashiyama said:
    I agree with @dcarr above. It's a bit hard to find an appropriate analogy to the home real estate market, but it might be more like adding large numbers of listings to the MLIS that you never intend to sell, with the hope of driving prices down for a brief period.

    how about real estate sales commission price fixing. I find it odd that they all arbitrarily want the same percentages. A deal was probably struck in some national back office.

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,266 ✭✭✭✭✭

    But, but..............it's just a technicality! Pfft.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,022 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2023 8:41AM

    This same bank has admitted to five felony accounts over the years and yet is allowed to hold 53% of all precious metals contracts (derivatives) held by banks

    "It’s long past the time for federal regulators to do their job and replace management and the Board at JPMorgan Chase and break up this dangerous trading behemoth that is masquerading as a federally-insured bank."

    Doesn't holding such a large position of derivatives (bets on metal prices) encourage one to control metal prices? LOL

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:
    how about real estate sales commission price fixing. I find it odd that they all arbitrarily want the same percentages. A deal was probably struck in some national back office.

    Yes, a deal was struck among several hundred national companies and thousands of local independents. :)

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:
    it passes muster every time charges are brought

    Hasn't gone to SCOTUS. Note that the SEC has a terrible record in prosecuting insider trading cases. See, Dirks vs. SEC (1982).

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2023 9:54PM

    @derryb said:
    This same bank has admitted to five felony accounts over the years and yet is allowed to hold 53% of all precious metals contracts (derivatives) held by banks

    They don't "hold" it -- they are custodians for other holders.

    "It’s long past the time for federal regulators to do their job and replace management and the Board at JPMorgan Chase and break up this dangerous trading behemoth that is masquerading as a federally-insured bank."_

    Really ? Replace them based on WHAT -- you don't like them ? You believe in a conspiracy theory that they control metal prices based on misinformation ?

    It is a bank and one of the most conserevative with about 80% of deposits insured by the FDIC and liquidity at major highs plus bond losses at about 19% of tangible common equity.

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2023 10:04PM

    @derryb said:
    This same bank has admitted to five felony accounts over the years and yet is allowed to hold 53% of all precious metals contracts (derivatives) held by banks

    This website reports half-truths and regurgitates nonsense. It is extremely political and doesn't understand banking, finance, or the Repo market. The data they choose to show how "risky" JP Morgan is have nothing to do with the bank. They seem obsessed with huge notional amounts not worrying about net exposures.

    The costs of cleaning up SVB have yet to be determined but it is unlikely to cost anywhere near $20 BB for the same reason that the 2008 Wall Street "bailouts" MADE the Treasury tens of billions except where small banks (close to politicians) and the UAW and AFL-CIO were involved. Then we lost tens of billions.

    I notice that the same people obsessing over non-existent Wall Street banks are saying ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the $36,000,000,000 given to the Teamsters Pension plan. No changes at mgmt....no monies will be paid back....a 100% scam and bailout that is being given NO public notice by the super-sharp financial geniuses in the media who keep whining about "bank bailouts."

    Wait 'till the trillion-dollar pension bill comes due for S&L public employee pensions. :o

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    My question is, "where did the funds go?" I'm assuming that the money didn't all go into the traders' individual accounts directly, but that they also "earned" some hefty bonuses. Either way, how could management be totally unaware of what was going on?

    If they were trading on behalf of bank clients, did management just look the other way as long as the results were positive? If these guys were also teaching other traders their same methodology, I would think that the word got out.

    Managements should be investigated and held accountable.

    The same thing was done by other traders at other banks and institutions and the LOST the same amounts. It's a zero-sum game.

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,266 ✭✭✭✭✭

    All of their managements should be investigated and held accountable for these illicit trading practices. So what if it's a zero sum game. So what? That makes it OK? BS!

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,022 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @derryb said:
    how about real estate sales commission price fixing. I find it odd that they all arbitrarily want the same percentages. A deal was probably struck in some national back office.

    Yes, a deal was struck among several hundred national companies and thousands of local independents. :)

    MLS

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    All of their managements should be investigated and held accountable for these illicit trading practices. So what if it's a zero sum game. So what? That makes it OK? BS!

    It's often just price-discovery. Try and sell 50,000 shares of an OTC/NASDAQ stock today -- you can't. No depth or liquidity.

    The price for narrow spreads, i.e., anti-gouging. :D

  • HiBuckyHiBucky Posts: 579 ✭✭✭

    This is just the beginning, it will get worst with more charges forthcoming. Let the unraveling begin!!!

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭✭

    @HiBucky said:
    This is just the beginning, it will get worst with more charges forthcoming. Let the unraveling begin!!!

    It's a non-event. How many technical violations of trading do you think are out there ? It doesn't impact the prices of gold or silver.

    If you think if not for some banks that gold and silver would 2x the price, no.

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,496 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    If you think if not for some banks that gold and silver would 2x the price, no.

    They think it would be 5x higher.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • CrustyCrusty Posts: 1,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If there was no paper silver and gold I believe the price for both would be much higher. Especially in silvers case.

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,293 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2023 2:38PM

    Gutter would be $3 maybe $4 if the banksters weren't pumping the price higher. The Au is certainly suppressed but not by banks or the financial markets. It should easily be $3250-$3372 in the current environment. RGDS!

    Edit: I mean cripes, why drive a Kia when you can own a Cadillac? THKS!

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,889 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2023 2:28AM

    @blitzdude said:
    Gutter would be $3 maybe $4 if the banksters weren't pumping the price higher. The Au is certainly suppressed but not by banks or the financial markets. It should easily be $3250-$3372 in the current environment. RGDS!

    Edit: I mean cripes, why drive a Kia when you can own a Cadillac? THKS!

    Your repeated statements about silver aren't going to convince anyone here to sell you silver on the cheap.

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,562 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2023 6:16PM

    @blitzdude said:
    Gutter would be $3 maybe $4 if the banksters weren't pumping the price higher. The Au is certainly suppressed but not by banks or the financial markets. It should easily be $3250-$3372 in the current environment. RGDS!

    Edit: I mean cripes, why drive a Kia when you can own a Cadillac? THKS!

    I drive a new 2023 Kia Niro plug-in hybrid that so far has gotten over 250 miles per gallon average since I bought it, and we have to pay only 12 cents per kWh for electric power. Best car I have ever owned.

    Physical silver is one of my favorite things. Did you know there are now 700 different US modern silver coins and medals minted since 1971? I like most of them more than my handful of shares of SLV. No regrets owning a little of both.

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭✭

    @Crusty said:
    If there was no paper silver and gold I believe the price for both would be much higher. Especially in silvers case.

    Did you ever think that the demand for the product increases because of the paper option ?

    It's easier to go long the PMs and you can hedge positions, too.

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,758 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2023 5:54AM

    Well like I asked my daughters when stimulus checks were issued a couple years ago: " Could I trade you 70 ounces of silver for that check ?" No? Okay. Today that $1200 only gets just over 40 oz. How time flies ....around the (malleable/manipulated) gutter.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,022 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Opponents forget the "store of value" concept with PMs.

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭✭

    @TwoSides2aCoin said:
    Well like I asked my daughters when stimulus checks were issued a couple years ago: " Could I trade you 70 ounces of silver for that check ?" No? Okay. Today that $1200 only gets just over 40 oz. How time flies ....around the (malleable/manipulated) gutter.

    Prices were distressed though at that time. Remember when gold hit $800 in 2008/09 ?

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,293 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 11, 2023 5:03PM

    @TwoSides2aCoin said:
    Well like I asked my daughters when stimulus checks were issued a couple years ago: " Could I trade you 70 ounces of silver for that check ?" No? Okay. Today that $1200 only gets just over 40 oz. How time flies ....around the (malleable/manipulated) gutter.

    I bought a hydraulic log splitter with the first stimmy (Possibly the best purchase I have ever made). In hindsight it was certainly a much better investment than if I woulda sunk it in the gutter. THKS!

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,496 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @blitzdude said:

    @TwoSides2aCoin said:
    Well like I asked my daughters when stimulus checks were issued a couple years ago: " Could I trade you 70 ounces of silver for that check ?" No? Okay. Today that $1200 only gets just over 40 oz. How time flies ....around the (malleable/manipulated) gutter.

    I bought a hydraulic log splitter with the first stimmy (Possibly the best purchase I have ever made). In hindsight it was certainly a much better investment than if I woulda sunk it in the gutter. THKS!

    I took #46's advice and spent mine on my avatar.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • meluaufeetmeluaufeet Posts: 746 ✭✭✭

    @GoldFinger1969
    Do you prefer AAAU vs GLD, or ???

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,889 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @blitzdude said:

    @TwoSides2aCoin said:
    Well like I asked my daughters when stimulus checks were issued a couple years ago: " Could I trade you 70 ounces of silver for that check ?" No? Okay. Today that $1200 only gets just over 40 oz. How time flies ....around the (malleable/manipulated) gutter.

    I bought a hydraulic log splitter with the first stimmy (Possibly the best purchase I have ever made). In hindsight it was certainly a much better investment than if I woulda sunk it in the gutter. THKS!

    Firewood for your "bunker" ?

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 7,956 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2023 3:20PM

    The perp. is local to me, though clearly white collar and financial frauds occur everywhere. They should catch the crooks before they rip off hundreds of people in many cases.

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭✭

    @meluaufeet said:
    @GoldFinger1969
    Do you prefer AAAU vs GLD, or ???

    I think you mean IAU, right ? Both pretty large and liquid but GLD is 2x bigger.

    Only would use for short-term trades. I want my gold IN MY HANDS.

  • meluaufeetmeluaufeet Posts: 746 ✭✭✭

    @GoldFinger1969

    Goldman Sachs Physical Gold ETF (AAAU) Yes, I use this for short/mid term position.

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭✭

    @GoldFinger1969 said:
    Goldman Sachs Physical Gold ETF (AAAU) Yes, I use this for short/mid term position.

    Under $1 BB market cap. Much lower liquidity than the other ETFs.

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