JJ Redick's says that Larry Bird was not one of the great three point shooters of all time

erikthredd

I'm posting this mainly to hear what @thisistheshow thinks about Redick's comments? I've posted a few youtube clips below where Redick gets called out for his hot take.
Here's the short clip of JJ's comments and the full debate is in the video at the bottom of this post:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VK_Bq-gxQQU

Dominique Wilkins even chimed in with support for Larry:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdqtsxwFLOI

I personally think Steph Curry is the greatest 3pt shooter with Bird in that next grouping with Reggie Miller,Ray Allen,Steve Kerr,Klay Thompson & Kevin Durant. I don't base this opinion off of the NBA's 3pt career rankings.

JJ does make a little sense if you're just going off of Bird's stats alone but for those who watched him play for all of those years we saw an entirely different story.
Bird's use of the three was more as a strategic weapon during games compared to these days where players may attempt 10 of them in the first half alone. Larry would take them when the C's were up and the opposing team was fighting to get back in it or when Boston was trying to get back in a game or when the outcome of the game was on the line.
You won't find Bird's name on any of the NBA's career shots made/attempts/percentage rankings but he had an insane knack for hitting them at the most opportune times.

One other thought about what Redick had to say about Curry/Bird, he thinks Steph Curry has faced more physicality on the court during this era than Bird did back when he played. I call total BS on that one and you can tell by that comment alone that JJ hasn't watched many Bird games over the years. There's just no way that a guy taking 10-20 three attempts in between the 3pt line and halfcourt is dealing with the same type of manhandling/scratching/elbowing slugfest that most frontcourt players dealt with in the paint back in the day.

For anyone that wants to watch the debate in full,here's the full clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9DsUHm3YQQ

For all of our forum members here that have had issues with threads getting derailed lately,ironically, this Larry Bird debate started off as as a question Who Made His Sport More Exciting: Curry or Mahomes? so this goes to show that this type of thing happens everywhere not just here. 🤣😎😂

thisistheshow

Bird had to learn to shoot 3s and practice to get better after becoming pro. He was highly successful relative to the era, shooting over 40% six times and winning the first three 3 point contests. But it was never an emphasis during his era. Bird looked at the 3 point shot as something to be used later in games when needed. Taking a 3 to win a game at the buzzer was quite unusual, as players usually played for overtime.

If Larry had not hurt his back in 1985 working on his Mom's driveway, he would be on most top 3 player lists.

He could hit his shot from anywhere on the court at any time, any angle.

Reddick is a fun listen, imo. Pretty well spoken, a lot of hot takes. Unfortunately he is way off here. Bird's stats might not be the best. His FT shooting and FG% were often great, but don't make him the best ever. But we all know the Pat Riley quote. And I agree. There was no one you wanted shooting to save your life other than Bird. And anecdotally he can still do it.

The Larry Bird disrespect is awful. If you go to any Bird highlight video and read the comments, there are typically only two takes. One is....see, I told you he is the best. The other is...I always thought he was just a jump shooter, why is this guy not in the GOAT conversation?

erikthredd

I checked and Redick was born in 1984 so he would have been 7 in Bird's final year in '91 so i'd say that his knowledge of Larry all came after his career ended.
I've watched a handful of his podcasts in recent weeks and they were pretty entertaining. Between his Bird take and thinking that the defense played on Curry is much more physical than anything that Bird saw back in the 80's just shows that he really doesn't have a clue on what he's talking about.

Larry would probably outshoot him in a 3pt contest now. 😎

1951WheatiesPremium

The three point shot came to the NBA in ‘79, college in ‘86 and high school in ‘87. Steph Curry was born in ‘88.

I think you can say that players prior to 1980 were taught not to shoot from that far away and to work for something closer.

I currently coach basketball and have coached from youth to high school over the last decade. Most kids under 5th grade practice their 3’s rather than (and much more than) that their layups…

thisistheshow

This video, the commentary, and the description beneath the video, all put into context how differently the 3 point shot was, even after it came into the league. If you only watch the video, you might be confused by the commentator saying that Bird hit three of them. This was his first 3 of the finals, hitting it at a key moment of game 6. It was a different game. Around ninety seconds left, three point lead. Surmountable. Bird hits a 3. Six point lead. Feels insurmountable.

https://youtu.be/LddwcKtITtU

erikthredd

@1951WheatiesPremium said:
The three point shot came to the NBA in ‘79, college in ‘86 and high school in ‘87. Steph Curry was born in ‘88.

I think you can say that players prior to 1980 were taught not to shoot from that far away and to work for something closer.

I currently coach basketball and have coached from youth to high school over the last decade. Most kids under 5th grade practice their 3’s rather than (and much more than) that their layups…

That's pretty nuts,most kids in that age group probably can't even hit the rim 10x out of 10 shots. The worst thing as they get a little older they'll probably start shooting them from a little deeper with each attempt.

erikthredd

@thisistheshow said:
This video, the commentary, and the description beneath the video, all put into context how differently the 3 point shot was, even after it came into the league. If you only watch the video, you might be confused by the commentator saying that Bird hit three of them. This was his first 3 of the finals, hitting it at a key moment of game 6. It was a different game. Around ninety seconds left, three point lead. Surmountable. Bird hits a 3. Six point lead. Feels insurmountable.

https://youtu.be/LddwcKtITtU

That's exactly what I was talking about, Bird took them sparingly throughout a game but when he did the timing seemed to count for more than just 3pts.

That short video clip alone shows how the 3pt shot was used in entirely different ways compared to now. Insurmountable is exactly what it probably felt like for Houston after Bird hits that dagger,the Rockets only scored 2pts in the 1:36 after Bird hit it. Then years later Reggie Miller scores 8pts in 9 seconds to beat the Knicks. Years after that Tracy Mcgrady's Rockets are down 8 to the Spurs when he scores 13pts in the final :35 seconds for the win,which to this day is still pretty incredible,imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgw6j2CpRkE
Now these days if your team is down with 1:36 on the clock that is literally a lifetime for some teams.

Then you have a team like Golden State,when they had Durant, where they would go on those mini 3rd quarter spurts where they'd repeatedly hit a three and get a stop on D,you look up ansd they just dropped 25pts in about 120 seconds.

How the three has been used and how often has definitely changed over the years but just because a guy like Bird never took X amount of attempts a game/season doesn't mean he wasn't one of the best shooters out there.
I respectfully say that JJ is fos.

erikthredd

Last night we saw the second highest scoring game in NBA history with the Kings beating the Clippers 176-175. I thought for sure that they'd combine for 100+ 3pt attempts but nope just 86 attempts out of 199 total field goal attempts lol.

thisistheshow

Imagine the difference compared to a game like this. Only two made 3 pointers. No overtime. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199011100PHO.html

Edited to add , this was in 1990. 173-143

erikthredd

@thisistheshow said:
Imagine the difference compared to a game like this. Only two made 3 pointers. No overtime. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199011100PHO.html

Edited to add , this was in 1990. 173-143

Those Kevin Johnson/Dan Majerle teams could score with the best of them. That must have been just before Barkley got traded to the Suns.

thisistheshow

The Warriors and the Suns were putting up a lot of points, iirc, by playing a rather "fast" style. Lol

thisistheshow

These highlights were from a week later earlier. Title says it was the most at the time. I'm unsure

ETA week earlier

https://youtu.be/N-fIfKRc3QI

thisistheshow

^^^^^^^^^^
I didn't look at the box score, but I think there were more than two made 3s in this game. Lol. Either way, it was definitely a fast paced game.

erikthredd

@thisistheshow said:
These highlights were from a week later. Title says it was the most at the time. I'm unsure

https://youtu.be/N-fIfKRc3QI

IIRC,that had to be Tim Hardaway's first or second year. I didn't watch many Nuggets games back then but those early to mid 90's Warriors were fun to watch.

thisistheshow

@erikthredd said:

@thisistheshow said:
These highlights were from a week later. Title says it was the most at the time. I'm unsure

https://youtu.be/N-fIfKRc3QI

IIRC,that had to be Tim Hardaway's first or second year. I didn't watch many Nuggets games back then but those early to mid 90's Warriors were fun to watch.

...Chris Mullin was my guy. Is my guy. Huge fan.

thisistheshow

For anyone who doesn't know Chris Mullin...

https://youtu.be/27YCtSDx43M

thisistheshow

If I couldn't choose prime Bird to take the shot to save my life, I'd pick prime Mullin.

Maywood

Larry would take them when the C's were up and the opposing team was fighting to get back in it or when Boston was trying to get back in a game or when the outcome of the game was on the line.

So all the time......................

erikthredd

LoL, pretty much. 🤣

1948_Swell_Robinson

@thisistheshow said:
Bird had to learn to shoot 3s and practice to get better after becoming pro. He was highly successful relative to the era, shooting over 40% six times and winning the first three 3 point contests. But it was never an emphasis during his era. Bird looked at the 3 point shot as something to be used later in games when needed. Taking a 3 to win a game at the buzzer was quite unusual, as players usually played for overtime.

If Larry had not hurt his back in 1985 working on his Mom's driveway, he would be on most top 3 player lists.

He could hit his shot from anywhere on the court at any time, any angle.

Reddick is a fun listen, imo. Pretty well spoken, a lot of hot takes. Unfortunately he is way off here. Bird's stats might not be the best. His FT shooting and FG% were often great, but don't make him the best ever. But we all know the Pat Riley quote. And I agree. There was no one you wanted shooting to save your life other than Bird. And anecdotally he can still do it.

The Larry Bird disrespect is awful. If you go to any Bird highlight video and read the comments, there are typically only two takes. One is....see, I told you he is the best. The other is...I always thought he was just a jump shooter, why is this guy not in the GOAT conversation?

Good analysis and explanation.

Bird's rookie year he did shoot 40% from three point land and then he had four years of .270, .212, .286, 247, and then he was the Larry Bird at 40% that we all grew accustomed to. Players simply weren't allowed to launch 3's non stop back then. They may have been benched if they did. So it was harder to get to the elite 3 level.

Magic Johnson had a similar learning curve with three pointers too. He never got to the level of Bird but he did improve a lot over the years.

Jordan had the same learning curve as well. Jordan came out of college with no three pointers. Can you imagine playing for Dean Smith back then and launching 27 foot shots? You wouldn't be playing for very long. So there was never a need to practice them.

erikthredd

@1948_Swell_Robinson said:

@thisistheshow said:

Jordan had the same learning curve as well. Jordan came out of college with no three pointers. Can you imagine playing for Dean Smith back then and launching 27 foot shots? You wouldn't be playing for very long. So there was never a need to practice them.

Then when he hits 6 straight threes in the first half of a Finals game all he could do was shrug. Many of the elite players back then were more than capable of hitting them at a decent clip,its just that they werent part of the game plan so that usually led to few attempts.

Tabe

With his 6 3-pointers against Portland, Jordan tied the record for 3s made in an NBA Finals game. The record was originally set, also against Portland, by.......

Bill Laimbeer.

erikthredd

@Tabe said:
With his 6 3-pointers against Portland, Jordan tied the record for 3s made in an NBA Finals game. The record was originally set, also against Portland, by.......

Bill Laimbeer.

Bill was ahead of the times as the original floor spacing big man lol. He was definitely in the wrong era seeing that bigs that are capable of hitting that many threes in a game get paid about 20-30M these days.

Tabe

@erikthredd said:

Bill was ahead of the times as the original floor spacing big man lol. He was definitely in the wrong era seeing that bigs that are capable of hitting that many threes in a game get paid about 20-30M these days.

Bill was a tremendous shooter, especially for his size and era. Shot .894 from the line - twice. Career .326 3pt shooter. That's pretty darn good for a guy that couldn't run and had a vertical leap of about 3/4".

erikthredd

@Tabe said:

@erikthredd said:

Bill was ahead of the times as the original floor spacing big man lol. He was definitely in the wrong era seeing that bigs that are capable of hitting that many threes in a game get paid about 20-30M these days.

Bill was a tremendous shooter, especially for his size and era. Shot .894 from the line - twice. Career .326 3pt shooter. That's pretty darn good for a guy that couldn't run and had a vertical leap of about 3/4".

@Tabe said:

@erikthredd said:

Bill was ahead of the times as the original floor spacing big man lol. He was definitely in the wrong era seeing that bigs that are capable of hitting that many threes in a game get paid about 20-30M these days.

Bill was a tremendous shooter, especially for his size and era. Shot .894 from the line - twice. Career .326 3pt shooter. That's pretty darn good for a guy that couldn't run and had a vertical leap of about 3/4".

And he had an incredible knack for instigating fights lol. Some of my fondest Celtics memories as a kid watching their games was seeing Bill brawling with Bird and then with Parish. We don't get to see this type of fierce rivalry anymore.

erikthredd

@thisistheshow Last night we were talking about scoring a ton of points in a short amount of time and I mentioned this:
Now these days if your team is down with 1:36 on the clock that is literally a lifetime for some teams.
I didn't watch this game but after detroitfan2 brought it up over in the trading card forum I checked it out. Michigan St was up 89-78 over Iowa with 1:34 left in regulation and in that final 94 seconds the two teams combined for 35pts and Iowa managed to get it into OT where they ended up winning 112-106. Iowa hit six threes in that 94 seconds including four in a row in the final 32 seconds. Their home crowd miust have been going crazy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUQge4yvEYQ

galaxy27

@erikthredd said:

I didn't watch many Nuggets games back then but those early to mid 90's Warriors were fun to watch.

i watched my fair share of NBA games back in the 80s (i was a Bulls fan even pre-MJ), and the Doug Moe-coached Nuggets were quite the spectacle. they played n-o spells no defense. their strategy was minimal (at best) effort on D so they could channel all of that stored energy when they had the ball in an attempt to outscore you, period.

i just went to basketball reference so i could get a quick chuckle before bed. check this pop tarts out from 81-82:

one twenty-six on both ends. first & dfl. 😂

thisistheshow

@erikthredd said:
@thisistheshow Last night we were talking about scoring a ton of points in a short amount of time and I mentioned this:
Now these days if your team is down with 1:36 on the clock that is literally a lifetime for some teams.
I didn't watch this game but after detroitfan2 brought it up over in the trading card forum I checked it out. Michigan St was up 89-78 over Iowa with 1:34 left in regulation and in that final 94 seconds the two teams combined for 35pts and Iowa managed to get it into OT where they ended up winning 112-106. Iowa hit six threes in that 94 seconds including four in a row in the final 32 seconds. Their home crowd miust have been going crazy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUQge4yvEYQ

.....
Alright, that's crazy.

erikthredd

@galaxy27 said:

@erikthredd said:

I didn't watch many Nuggets games back then but those early to mid 90's Warriors were fun to watch.

i watched my fair share of NBA games back in the 80s (i was a Bulls fan even pre-MJ), and the Doug Moe-coached Nuggets were quite the spectacle. they played n-o spells no defense. their strategy was minimal (at best) effort on D so they could channel all of that stored energy when they had the ball in an attempt to outscore you, period.

i just went to basketball reference so i could get a quick chuckle before bed. check this pop tarts out from 81-82:

one twenty-six on both ends. first & dfl. 😂

Nothing like a trackmeet every night up in that Denver air.

thisistheshow

@galaxy27 said:

@erikthredd said:

I didn't watch many Nuggets games back then but those early to mid 90's Warriors were fun to watch.

i watched my fair share of NBA games back in the 80s (i was a Bulls fan even pre-MJ), and the Doug Moe-coached Nuggets were quite the spectacle. they played n-o spells no defense. their strategy was minimal (at best) effort on D so they could channel all of that stored energy when they had the ball in an attempt to outscore you, period.

i just went to basketball reference so i could get a quick chuckle before bed. check this pop tarts out from 81-82:

one twenty-six on both ends. first & dfl. 😂

...
That's actually "impressive".

craig44

JJ Redick is an idiot

erikthredd

Former Laker Michael Cooper with some love for Larry Bird.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd-XA8t10fo

1951WheatiesPremium

Coop’s right…you have to have seen them all. Then you can comment intelligently.

Sports - all of them - were way more physical and nasty the further back you go. These guys are all millionaires and buddies today who hug after games. Larry Bird was involved in actual, on court fistfights with Dr. J, Kareem, Laimbeer, Rodman and others. And he wasn’t the exception, either. Sports are different now and sportsmanship gets a greater emphasis. That’s a good thing, too, in my eyes. But let’s look at basketball as an example. The reason guys didn’t dunk as much in the 1960’s and 70’s is because when you left the ground near the basket there was someone waiting there to smash you down onto the wood. If you go back even 30 years, you can see the hand checking and bumping and physicality on every play that is just no longer there. So you get incredible athleticism instead and most people seem to like it…

doubledragon

I got curious so I watched some Larry Bird highlights and fights on YouTube the other night, and Larry Bird was intense, he didn't play around, when he was on the court he meant business and he didn't take any crap from anyone, and he always gave maximum effort, balls to the wall. It's easy to see why many consider him to be the GOAT, he was that good. Honestly, I would have dreaded playing against him. I didn't watch much NBA in the 80s, but from I saw on YouTube, it looked like a VERY physical era.

Tabe

@doubledragon said:
I got curious so I watched some Larry Bird highlights and fights on YouTube the other night, and Larry Bird was intense, he didn't play around, when he was on the court he meant business and he didn't take any crap from anyone, and he always gave maximum effort, balls to the wall. It's easy to see why many consider him to be the GOAT, he was that good. Honestly, I would have dreaded playing against him. I didn't watch much NBA in the 80s, but from I saw on YouTube, it looked like a VERY physical era.

The flagrant foul wasn't introduced until 1990. Clobbering guys going for layups was part of the deal. The deterrent was your own guys getting crunched or fights. I mean, when Robert Parish attacked Bill Laimbeer, he did it in front of the refs and_wasn't even called for a foul_. The NBA was waaaaaaay more physical back then.

SanctionII

I think that today in all professional sports (and also in college and high school) the massive increase in money that gets paid to athletes has caused a mind shift in how athletes view themselves and their sports.

They are more likely to view opponents as members of an elite club who must look out for each other and work together to make sure their income continues to flow.

They no longer have to work outside of their sport in the off season to pay their bills.

This mind shift, along with rule changes that punish overly physical play has reduced the frequency of rough play on the court/field in some sports (i.e. basketball).

thisistheshow

@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Coop’s right…you have to have seen them all. Then you can comment intelligently.

Sports - all of them - were way more physical and nasty the further back you go. These guys are all millionaires and buddies today who hug after games. Larry Bird was involved in actual, on court fistfights with Dr. J, Kareem, Laimbeer, Rodman and others. And he wasn’t the exception, either. Sports are different now and sportsmanship gets a greater emphasis. That’s a good thing, too, in my eyes. But let’s look at basketball as an example. The reason guys didn’t dunk as much in the 1960’s and 70’s is because when you left the ground near the basket there was someone waiting there to smash you down onto the wood. If you go back even 30 years, you can see the hand checking and bumping and physicality on every play that is just no longer there. So you get incredible athleticism instead and most people seem to like it…

...
That is really well written, in my opinion, and effectively encapsulates a lot of what has happened. Thank you!

thisistheshow

@Tabe said:

@doubledragon said:
I got curious so I watched some Larry Bird highlights and fights on YouTube the other night, and Larry Bird was intense, he didn't play around, when he was on the court he meant business and he didn't take any crap from anyone, and he always gave maximum effort, balls to the wall. It's easy to see why many consider him to be the GOAT, he was that good. Honestly, I would have dreaded playing against him. I didn't watch much NBA in the 80s, but from I saw on YouTube, it looked like a VERY physical era.

The flagrant foul wasn't introduced until 1990. Clobbering guys going for layups was part of the deal. The deterrent was your own guys getting crunched or fights. I mean, when Robert Parish attacked Bill Laimbeer, he did it in front of the refs and_wasn't even called for a foul_. The NBA was waaaaaaay more physical back then.

...
You hit on some key points. The flagrant foul changed so much. Now it wasn't just about action, it was also intent. Pure athleticism and being able to go to the basket was not an easy route to take.

thisistheshow

@SanctionII said:
I think that today in all professional sports (and also in college and high school) the massive increase in money that gets paid to athletes has caused a mind shift in how athletes view themselves and their sports.

They are more likely to view opponents as members of an elite club who must look out for each other and work together to make sure their income continues to glow.

They no longer have to work outside of their sport in the off season to pay their bills.

This mind shift, along with rule changes that punish overly physical play has reduced the frequency of rough play on the court/field in some sports (i.e. basketball).

The money, the mentality, the "club". Yes, thry all are big players in the destruction of what used to be.

1951WheatiesPremium

@Tabe said:

@doubledragon said:
I got curious so I watched some Larry Bird highlights and fights on YouTube the other night, and Larry Bird was intense, he didn't play around, when he was on the court he meant business and he didn't take any crap from anyone, and he always gave maximum effort, balls to the wall. It's easy to see why many consider him to be the GOAT, he was that good. Honestly, I would have dreaded playing against him. I didn't watch much NBA in the 80s, but from I saw on YouTube, it looked like a VERY physical era.

The flagrant foul wasn't introduced until 1990. Clobbering guys going for layups was part of the deal. The deterrent was your own guys getting crunched or fights. I mean, when Robert Parish attacked Bill Laimbeer, he did it in front of the refs and_wasn't even called for a foul_. The NBA was waaaaaaay more physical back then.

Just a point of fact? The flagrant foul was actually passed in 1980 and only started to be enforced in 1990. It was part of a series of rule changes designed to help the league’s best player rise to the top as the face of the NBA.

Alfonz24

@erikthredd said:
Last night we saw the second highest scoring game in NBA history with the Kings beating the Clippers 176-175. I thought for sure that they'd combine for 100+ 3pt attempts but nope just 86 attempts out of 199 total field goal attempts lol.

all star game carry over defense?

erikthredd

This wasn't the first time that JJ had a hot take about former Celtics players. Last year on ESPN's First Take they were comparing Bob Cousy to Chris Paul for some reason then Redick called out Cousy for "playing against firemen & plumbers,that he couldn't dribble with his left hand and that he couldn't even shoot 40%."

Cousy's response:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1527355910519083034

"People with less talent will always try to make a name for themselves by criticizing other people and hopefully getting some attention and perhaps increasing their credibility. So, when you respond to something like this, you play into their hands. I won’t do that. But I will defend the firemen and the plumbers that he referenced.

And I’ll just give you a few of their names of these firemen that I played with and against during those years. How about Bill Russell, the aforementioned? Not too bad a player. Wilt Chamberlain, remember that guy? He wasn’t bad. I guess he must have fought fires as well. But in any event, Wilt Chamberlain. Still the best, in my judgment, small forward that ever played the game, a guy named Elgin Baylor. A couple of point guards that weren’t too shabby, my colleague who also had an award created, guy named Oscar Robertson, who was pound for pound the best player perhaps in the game. Jerry West wasn’t too shabby. The guys on our team, Sam and K.C. Jones, a guy named “Hondo” Havlicek wasn’t too bad. Tom Heinsohn, Frank Ramsey, George Mikan, Bob Pettit – I could go on and on.

And we must have had the best firemen and plumbers on the planet at the time. And I was very proud to play with all of them."

Cousy's accolades:
13 seasons
6x championships
1x regular season MVP
13x All Star games
2x All Star MVP's
10x All NBA 1st team
2x All NBA second team
8x Assists leaders
6955 career assists

Redick's accolades:
6x teams over 15 seasons
ranked 19th all time if 3pt%
ranked 18th all time in 3pt FG's made
ranked 25th all time in 3pt attempts
ranked 9th all time in FT%

JJ fits right in on that First Take show,just keep throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks.

erikthredd

@Alfonz24 said:

@erikthredd said:
Last night we saw the second highest scoring game in NBA history with the Kings beating the Clippers 176-175. I thought for sure that they'd combine for 100+ 3pt attempts but nope just 86 attempts out of 199 total field goal attempts lol.

all star game carry over defense?

Figures that the only attempt at defense in the AS game came from two Celtics players going 1 on 1.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzgNUvc0vaw

thisistheshow

When you watch video of basketball from Cousy's era, it is literally an entirely different game. Modern players, if they were inserted magically into a game from them, would be called for palming, travelling, and double dribbling on almost every possession. The guys back then were forced to adhere to a strict set of rules, and thus they practiced a certain way.