NGC Secures Restraining Order and Preliminary Injunction Order in Coin Tampering Case

winesteven

.
I just received an email with the below information - intriguing!

Steve

NGC Secures Restraining Order and Preliminary Injunction Order in Coin Tampering Case
Posted on 2/24/2023

Those who seek to undermine the integrity of NGC certification will be pursued aggressively, as this case demonstrates.

In keeping with its unparalleled commitment to accuracy and integrity in coin grading, Numismatic Guaranty Company® (NGC®) has brought swift legal action against an individual accused of tampering with NGC-certified coins.

The case, which is ongoing, has resulted thus far in the issuance of a far-reaching restraining order and preliminary injunction order, which will remain in effect throughout the course of the litigation. The preliminary injunction order (incorporating all elements of an earlier-issued temporary restraining order) was entered by the US District Court for the Southern District of New York on January 31, 2023, after the judge granted the temporary restraining order on January 18, 2023.

The scheme
NGC initiated the legal action when it was made aware of an apparent scheme to sell coins misrepresented as being NGC-certified. The defendant in the case, a man named Richard Albright, is accused of removing NGC-certified coins from their holders and replacing them with coins of inferior grade and value. The lesser coins, which Mr. Albright encased in holders that misrepresented their authenticity and condition, were allegedly sold by him to unsuspecting collectors and dealers, and it appeared that he had the intention to continue with the scheme.

NGC provides a Certification Verification tool through its website that shows high-resolution images of both the front and back of coins it has graded and encapsulated. The database, which encompasses high-resolution images of more than 33 million coins, is accessible to anyone for free and is searchable by NGC certification number. This tremendous resource played a role in the case involving Mr. Albright, allowing NGC to compare the swapped coins with those it had originally encapsulated.

The orders
The preliminary injunction order prohibits Mr. Albright from conducting a wide variety of activities related to his alleged scheme, including using NGC’s trademarks to identify coins not certified by NGC or using false descriptions to make it appear that coins have been certified by NGC. The order also requires Mr. Albright to provide NGC with a written report that reveals all of the online marketplaces where he may have sold coins as part of the scheme as well as sales records related to coins that were misrepresented as NGC-certified.

The court further ordered Mr. Albright to present to NGC for safekeeping during the case any coins in his possession that are or appear to be certified by NGC and “all coins held at any point for purposes of substitution with coins” certified by NGC. He is also required, upon NGC’s request, to present all of his electronic devices, including laptops, desktops and mobile devices, for examination.

Finally, the court has ordered that, upon request by NGC, Mr. Albright shall cooperate with any efforts to reimburse consumers to whom he sold coins whose grade or value were misrepresented. NGC’s goal is to obtain an order that will result in restitution for anyone who was defrauded in the scheme. The eBay usernames that Mr. Albright may have used to sell tampered coins include:

ricalbr-40 (October 2020 – June 2022)
Walkerlvr (June 2022 – November 2022)
halfcrazy23 (November 2022 – Present)
Those who think that they may have been defrauded by Mr. Albright, should email Protect@NGCcoin.com.

The holders in which NGC encapsulates certified coins include a number of security features, such as a certification label with microprinting and a UV watermark as well as an advanced-technology hologram fused directly onto the back of the holder that is virtually impossible to reproduce. Those who seek to violate these security measures or to counterfeit NGC holders will be pursued aggressively, as the case against Mr. Albright demonstrates. If the case goes to a final decision, NGC stands to recover damages up to $200,000 for each instance of tampering and misrepresentation.

PerryHall

How were they able to open the sonically sealed NGC slabs without it being detected?

lermish

This was from 2002

https://rbj.net/2002/03/01/online-or-off-caveat-emptor-is-the-golden-rule/

Online or off, caveat emptor is the golden rule
By: Will Astor March 1, 2002

When Henry Gottfried saw a mint-condition 1854 U.S. gold dollar in an eBay auction last month, he thought it would make the perfect gift for his son’s 25th birthday. He researched the seller and the coin, and placed a bid.
Gottfried, a vice president of the Greater Rochester Metro Chamber of Commerce Inc. and a frequent online purchaser, was elated when his nearly $1,300 bid won. The coin was worth substantially more. The seller, Richard Albright of Myersville, Md., had racked up rave reviews over the past year on eBay buyer feedback.
Gottfried’s son, David, a serious amateur coin collector, would be thrilled. What could be wrong?
Gottfried, however, never received the coin he ordered. He soon learned that neither did some 30 other people across the country who had placed winning bids on Albright’s coins. Gottfried concluded he had been scammed.
Albright has since been banned by eBay, the site reports. A scan of his recent eBay feedback pages shows more than 20 complaints, virtually all reporting checks or money orders cashed and coins not sent.
Gottfried’s case is hardly unique. Though law-enforcement authorities say the majority of online transactions are safe and getting safer, they acknowledge that online fraud is a persistent problem.e now has a good story to tell.

coinbuf

Good, I hope NGC is successful in this attempt to prosecute.

ianrussell

It's not shocking that eBay let the scammer back on their site. They have to, so they can make their quarterly numbers for wall street.

But seriously - at some point, eBay needs to take a stand. We invite them to join the PNG or the ANA. Or ANY numismatic body that has a code of ethics.

• Ian

jmlanzaf

@PerryHall said:
How were they able to open the sonically sealed NGC slabs without it being detected?

We did put a man on the moon...

You also could just get after market slabs and move the label over, if you can't open it.

Zoins

@jmlanzaf said:

@PerryHall said:
How were they able to open the sonically sealed NGC slabs without it being detected?

We did put a man on the moon...

You also could just get after market slabs and move the label over, if you can't open it.

The article does seem to allow for 3rd party holders to be used.

The scheme
NGC initiated the legal action when it was made aware of an apparent scheme to sell coins misrepresented as being NGC-certified. The defendant in the case, a man named Richard Albright, is accused of removing NGC-certified coins from their holders and replacing them with coins of inferior grade and value. The lesser coins, which Mr. Albright encased in holders that misrepresented their authenticity and condition, were allegedly sold by him to unsuspecting collectors and dealers, and it appeared that he had the intention to continue with the scheme.

Pnies20

Goteeeeem

BStrauss3

@PerryHall said:
How were they able to open the sonically sealed NGC slabs without it being detected?

The complaint looks like he just cracked from the short edge and put it back together with some heat...

The complaint is available through Pacer (you have to create an account and are billed for usage, but up to $30/quarter gets waived) - has pictures of the before and after.

https://ecf.nysd.uscourts.gov/doc1/127132664820 cost $2.90 although there is probably a cost-free version available, I didn't bother to search for it.

Text of the order: https://casetext.com/case/provenance-ngc-llc-v-albright

Zoins

@winesteven said:
The eBay usernames that Mr. Albright may have used to sell tampered coins include:

ricalbr-40 (October 2020 – June 2022)
Walkerlvr (June 2022 – November 2022)
halfcrazy23 (November 2022 – Present)

Interesting that the last user has been active since October 17, 2020, 2 years before what's mentioned in the article. Was the account taken over?

https://www.ebay.com/fdbk/feedback_profile/halfcrazy23?user_context=SELLER

All good feedback except for 1 neutral and 1 negative.

• 1 neutral: honored return
• 1 negative: didn't honor low price, claimed it was a listing mistake

PeakRarities

Good on NGC! however, the way I read it, it sounds like the guy will get off with another slap on the wrist though. These lowlifes need to be prosecuted for real, otherwise they’ll just revert back to their old patterns after the smoke clears.

“NGC provides a Certification Verification tool through its website that shows high-resolution images of both the front and back of coins it has graded and encapsulated. The database, which encompasses high-resolution images of more than 33 million coins, is accessible to anyone for free and is searchable by NGC certification number. This tremendous resource played a role in the case involving Mr. Albright, allowing NGC to compare the swapped coins with those it had originally encapsulated”

This is all fine and dandy, but do they really use the lousy slab shots to identify the coins, or did they use the Photovision shots that ARE NOT available to the public? I just don’t understand what the purpose is to have a public database of poor quality slab shots where you can barely see the actual coin, yet the high resolution PV shots can only be accessed by the original submitter. If we want to prevent numismatic mishaps like this, there should be full transparency in every aspect of a coin’s identification.

Zoins

@DeplorableDan said:
Good on NGC! however, the way I read it, it sounds like the guy will get off with another slap on the wrist though. These lowlifes need to be prosecuted for real, otherwise they’ll just revert back to their old patterns after the smoke clears.

“NGC provides a Certification Verification tool through its website that shows high-resolution images of both the front and back of coins it has graded and encapsulated. The database, which encompasses high-resolution images of more than 33 million coins, is accessible to anyone for free and is searchable by NGC certification number. This tremendous resource played a role in the case involving Mr. Albright, allowing NGC to compare the swapped coins with those it had originally encapsulated”

This is all fine and dandy, but do they really use the lousy slab shots to identify the coins, or did they use the Photovision shots that ARE NOT available to the public? I just don’t understand what the purpose is to have a public database of poor quality slab shots where you can barely see the actual coin, yet the high resolution PV shots can only be accessed by the original submitter. If we want to prevent numismatic mishaps like this, there should be full transparency in every aspect of a coin’s identification.

My guess is that PV on Cert Verification is coming, but they are still working out the details. Just recently, they've been adjusting the PV backgrounds and aspect ratios.

Zoins

Here's the case text:

https://casetext.com/case/provenance-ngc-llc-v-albright

Of note, NGC is owned by a company "Provenance NGC LLC":

PROVENANCE NGC LLC d/b/a NUMISMATIC GUARANTY COMPANY, Plaintiff, v. RICHARD ALBRIGHT, Defendant.

dsessom

PCGS should do the same. I have lost count of how many counterfeit coins/slabs we have all seen and had removed from Ebay. Just yesterday we (forum members) had that 1916-D Mercury dime removed from Ebay, and that was a reputable dealer that was duped!

Zoins

@winesteven said:
I just received an email with the below information - intriguing!

Here's the webpage:

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/11312/coin-tampering-case/

Zoins

NGC said:
NGC provides a Certification Verification tool through its website that shows high-resolution images of both the front and back of coins it has graded and encapsulated. The database, which encompasses high-resolution images of more than 33 million coins, is accessible to anyone for free and is searchable by NGC certification number. This tremendous resource played a role in the case involving Mr. Albright, allowing NGC to compare the swapped coins with those it had originally encapsulated.

It's amazing that they have photos of 33 million coins. That's 66 million photos for obverse and reverse.

I'm still of the opinion that one of the best ways to protect people is a combination of both close up photos (TV/PV) and slab photos.

winesteven

It sounds like Richard Albright is either:

1. Not alright, or
2. Not all that bright, lol.

NJCoin

@DeplorableDan said:
Good on NGC! however, the way I read it, it sounds like the guy will get off with another slap on the wrist though. These lowlifes need to be prosecuted for real, otherwise they’ll just revert back to their old patterns after the smoke clears.

“NGC provides a Certification Verification tool through its website that shows high-resolution images of both the front and back of coins it has graded and encapsulated. The database, which encompasses high-resolution images of more than 33 million coins, is accessible to anyone for free and is searchable by NGC certification number. This tremendous resource played a role in the case involving Mr. Albright, allowing NGC to compare the swapped coins with those it had originally encapsulated”

This is all fine and dandy, but do they really use the lousy slab shots to identify the coins, or did they use the Photovision shots that ARE NOT available to the public? I just don’t understand what the purpose is to have a public database of poor quality slab shots where you can barely see the actual coin, yet the high resolution PV shots can only be accessed by the original submitter. If we want to prevent numismatic mishaps like this, there should be full transparency in every aspect of a coin’s identification.

NGC is in federal court, and they are publicizing what they are doing. That indicates to me that they are throwing resources at this, and are out to destroy the guy as an example to others, rather than looking for a slap on the wrist.

Screwing around with a few dozen people on eBay is one thing. Threatening the integrity of the bread and butter product at the heart of a private equity owned business is something altogether different. Albright should have stuck with stealing from eBay bidders, because he really opened Pandora's box by poking this bear.

Zoins

@NJCoin said:

@DeplorableDan said:
Good on NGC! however, the way I read it, it sounds like the guy will get off with another slap on the wrist though. These lowlifes need to be prosecuted for real, otherwise they’ll just revert back to their old patterns after the smoke clears.

“NGC provides a Certification Verification tool through its website that shows high-resolution images of both the front and back of coins it has graded and encapsulated. The database, which encompasses high-resolution images of more than 33 million coins, is accessible to anyone for free and is searchable by NGC certification number. This tremendous resource played a role in the case involving Mr. Albright, allowing NGC to compare the swapped coins with those it had originally encapsulated”

This is all fine and dandy, but do they really use the lousy slab shots to identify the coins, or did they use the Photovision shots that ARE NOT available to the public? I just don’t understand what the purpose is to have a public database of poor quality slab shots where you can barely see the actual coin, yet the high resolution PV shots can only be accessed by the original submitter. If we want to prevent numismatic mishaps like this, there should be full transparency in every aspect of a coin’s identification.

NGC is in federal court, and they are publicizing what they are doing. That indicates to me that they are throwing resources at this, and are out to destroy the guy as an example to others, rather than looking for a slap on the wrist.

Screwing around with a few dozen people on eBay is one thing. Threatening the integrity of the bread and butter product at the heart of a private equity owned business is something altogether. Albright should have stuck with stealing from eBay bidders, because he really opened Pandora's box by poking this bear.

The potential damages are eye opening:

NGC said:
If the case goes to a final decision, NGC stands to recover damages up to $200,000 for each instance of tampering and misrepresentation.

This is likely way more than whatever financial gains this scam produced.

Project Numismatics

I appreciate PCGS and NGC taking steps like this to preserve the integrity of their product. Fakes undermine confidence in the numismatic market - whether the fakes are slabs, coins or alterations. It's critical that the industry stays vigilant if we want to protect our hobby.

BStrauss3

Go ahead and read the TRO that i posted the link to above and understand the restrictions were AGREED to by the plaintiff and defendant!!!

IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED, by and between the attorneys for the respective parties hereto that:

1. The injunctive relief previously granted in the TRO shall remain in place through the pendency of this litigation. Accordingly, Defendant is hereby restrained and enjoined from engaging in any of the following acts or omissions pending the final hearing and determination of this action or under further order of the Court:

a. Using any reproduction, counterfeit, copy or colorable imitation of NGC's trademarks (collectively, the “NGC Marks”) to identify any goods not authorized by NGC;
b. Engaging in any course of conduct likely to cause confusion, deception or mistake, or to injure NGC's business reputation;
c. Using a false description or representation including words, symbols, or artwork tending falsely to describe or represent Defendant's unauthorized goods as being those of NGC or sponsored by or associated with NGC and from offering such goods into commerce;
d. Further infringing the NGC Marks by distributing, circulating, selling, marketing, offering for sale, advertising, promoting, renting, displaying or otherwise disposing of any products not authorized by NGC bearing any simulation, reproduction, counterfeit, copy or colorable imitation of the NGC Marks;
e. Using any simulation, reproduction, counterfeit, copy or colorable imitation of the NGC Marks in connection with the promotion, advertisement, display, sale, offering for sale, circulation or distribution of any unauthorized products in such fashion as to relate or connect, or tend to relate or connect, such products in any way to NGC, or to any goods sold, manufactured, sponsored or approved by, or connected with NGC;
f. Making any statement or representation whatsoever, or using any false designation of origin or false description, or performing any act, which can or is likely to lead the trade or public, or individual members thereof, to believe that any products distributed, or sold by Defendant are in any manner associated or connected with NGC, or are sold, manufactured, licensed, sponsored, approved or authorized by NGC;
g. Secreting, destroying, altering, removing, or otherwise dealing with the unauthorized products or any books, records, or other documents that contain any information relating to the importing, manufacturing, producing, distributing, circulating, selling, marketing, offering for sale, advertising, promoting, renting or displaying of all unauthorized products that infringe the NGC Marks; and
h. Effecting assignments or transfers, forming new entities or associations or utilizing any other device for the purpose of circumventing or otherwise avoiding the prohibitions set forth in subparagraphs (a) through (h).

Now remember, the defendant hasn't admitted doing any of this, so agreeing not to do more of it is not the home run it might sound like at first. There's nothing that prevents him from selling NGC coins as long as the slabs aren't tampered with, for example.

FlyingAl

@DeplorableDan said:
Good on NGC! however, the way I read it, it sounds like the guy will get off with another slap on the wrist though. These lowlifes need to be prosecuted for real, otherwise they’ll just revert back to their old patterns after the smoke clears.

“NGC provides a Certification Verification tool through its website that shows high-resolution images of both the front and back of coins it has graded and encapsulated. The database, which encompasses high-resolution images of more than 33 million coins, is accessible to anyone for free and is searchable by NGC certification number. This tremendous resource played a role in the case involving Mr. Albright, allowing NGC to compare the swapped coins with those it had originally encapsulated”

This is all fine and dandy, but do they really use the lousy slab shots to identify the coins, or did they use the Photovision shots that ARE NOT available to the public? I just don’t understand what the purpose is to have a public database of poor quality slab shots where you can barely see the actual coin, yet the high resolution PV shots can only be accessed by the original submitter. If we want to prevent numismatic mishaps like this, there should be full transparency in every aspect of a coin’s identification.

I agree a good chunk of NGC’s old slab images aren’t useful, but I recently got some coins back from NGC, and it seems they’re using a new photo system for their slab shots. The images are actually high resolution, and I can easily identify the coin. They’re good enough photos I’d feel comfortable buying a coin off of them. Given, I think my standards of good enough to buy off of are quite a bit lower than the average member here.

Feel free to PM me if you’d like a cert number of a coin I have images of so you can compare.

asheland

Good for NGC! 👍
I hope they hang him out to dry!

jmlanzaf

@ianrussell said:
It's not shocking that eBay let the scammer back on their site. They have to, so they can make their quarterly numbers for wall street.

But seriously - at some point, eBay needs to take a stand. We invite them to join the PNG or the ANA. Or ANY numismatic body that has a code of ethics.

• Ian

Just for the record, how much does GC spend on background checks of consignors?

Thank you in advance.

Colombianito

@jmlanzaf said:

@ianrussell said:
It's not shocking that eBay let the scammer back on their site. They have to, so they can make their quarterly numbers for wall street.

But seriously - at some point, eBay needs to take a stand. We invite them to join the PNG or the ANA. Or ANY numismatic body that has a code of ethics.

• Ian

Just for the record, how much does GC spend on background checks of consignors?

Thank you in advance.

Thats an unfair and stupid question . Coins are sent to GC where their numismatists verify authenticity . They are also vetted by the organizations Ian listed .

Your question really isn’t as clever as you think 🙄🙄

gumby1234

Its about time some of the big boys stepped up to deal with this.

lermish

@Colombianito said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ianrussell said:
It's not shocking that eBay let the scammer back on their site. They have to, so they can make their quarterly numbers for wall street.

But seriously - at some point, eBay needs to take a stand. We invite them to join the PNG or the ANA. Or ANY numismatic body that has a code of ethics.

• Ian

Just for the record, how much does GC spend on background checks of consignors?

Thank you in advance.

Thats an unfair and stupid question . Coins are sent to GC where their numismatists verify authenticity . They are also vetted by the organizations Ian listed .

Your question really isn’t as clever as you think 🙄🙄

I like GC a lot and do a fair amount of business there but I think it's a fair question.

And I think you completely missed the point @jmlanzaf was trying to make.

jmlanzaf

@lermish said:

@Colombianito said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ianrussell said:
It's not shocking that eBay let the scammer back on their site. They have to, so they can make their quarterly numbers for wall street.

But seriously - at some point, eBay needs to take a stand. We invite them to join the PNG or the ANA. Or ANY numismatic body that has a code of ethics.

• Ian

Just for the record, how much does GC spend on background checks of consignors?

Thank you in advance.

Thats an unfair and stupid question . Coins are sent to GC where their numismatists verify authenticity . They are also vetted by the organizations Ian listed .

Your question really isn’t as clever as you think 🙄🙄

I like GC a lot and do a fair amount of business there but I think it's a fair question.

And I think you completely missed the point @jmlanzaf was trying to make.

I just thought Ian's comment was equally unfair. My question was meant to be sarcastic.

jmlanzaf

@Colombianito said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ianrussell said:
It's not shocking that eBay let the scammer back on their site. They have to, so they can make their quarterly numbers for wall street.

But seriously - at some point, eBay needs to take a stand. We invite them to join the PNG or the ANA. Or ANY numismatic body that has a code of ethics.

• Ian

Just for the record, how much does GC spend on background checks of consignors?

Thank you in advance.

Thats an unfair and stupid question . Coins are sent to GC where their numismatists verify authenticity . They are also vetted by the organizations Ian listed .

Your question really isn’t as clever as you think 🙄🙄

They can verify authenticity, but how would they know if they had been stolen? How do they know they weren't hidden from a bankruptcy proceeding?

If he expects eBay to know such things, I just assume he must know such things about his clients.

Your critique really isn't as clever as you think.

jmlanzaf

Before the GC Fanboys lose their minds, I want to tell you a story.

A local dealer went bankrupt about 20 years ago. There were criminal charges also. The store inventory as well as his personal belongings were seized and dispersed by the court for the benefit of the debtors.

One the dust settled, lo and behold, his daughter was selling coins and currency on eBay AND major auction houses. Some debtors squawked, but no one could prove they weren't hers even though a friend of mine knew the Rochester notes had belonged to the father.

Could eBay do more? Sure. But eBay does more than they get credit for and I think it is rather unfair to expect that they catch everything.

MasonG

@jmlanzaf said:
Could eBay do more? Sure. But eBay does more than they get credit for and I think it is rather unfair to expect that they catch everything.

Agree 100%. eBay provides an option for the typical collector to buy and sell online that can't be matched anywhere else. They're not perfect, but who is?

There was a call for eBay to join PNG or the ANA earlier. How about Amazon? Or Facebook? Or Instagram? Or Craigslist? Or Walmart? Shouldn't they be expected to join, too? Or is it just eBay?

jmlanzaf

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Could eBay do more? Sure. But eBay does more than they get credit for and I think it is rather unfair to expect that they catch everything.

Agree 100%. eBay provides an option for the typical collector to buy and sell online that can't be matched anywhere else. They're not perfect, but who is?

There was a call for eBay to join PNG or the ANA earlier. How about Amazon? Or Facebook? Or Instagram? Or Craigslist? Or Walmart? Shouldn't they be expected to join, too? Or is it just eBay?

I also am not exactly sure what one of those organizations is doing that would cut down on fraud at all. Forcing (allegedly) your members to follow a code of conduct does nothing to prevent the non-members from doing whatever they want.

MasonG

@jmlanzaf said:

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Could eBay do more? Sure. But eBay does more than they get credit for and I think it is rather unfair to expect that they catch everything.

Agree 100%. eBay provides an option for the typical collector to buy and sell online that can't be matched anywhere else. They're not perfect, but who is?

There was a call for eBay to join PNG or the ANA earlier. How about Amazon? Or Facebook? Or Instagram? Or Craigslist? Or Walmart? Shouldn't they be expected to join, too? Or is it just eBay?

I also am not exactly sure what one of those organizations is doing that would cut down on fraud at all. Forcing (allegedly) your members to follow a code of conduct does nothing to prevent the non-members from doing whatever they want.

It doesn't necessarily stop your members from doing whatever it is you're worried about, either. Posting a code is easy. Enforcing it, not so much...

jmlanzaf

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Could eBay do more? Sure. But eBay does more than they get credit for and I think it is rather unfair to expect that they catch everything.

Agree 100%. eBay provides an option for the typical collector to buy and sell online that can't be matched anywhere else. They're not perfect, but who is?

There was a call for eBay to join PNG or the ANA earlier. How about Amazon? Or Facebook? Or Instagram? Or Craigslist? Or Walmart? Shouldn't they be expected to join, too? Or is it just eBay?

I also am not exactly sure what one of those organizations is doing that would cut down on fraud at all. Forcing (allegedly) your members to follow a code of conduct does nothing to prevent the non-members from doing whatever they want.

It doesn't necessarily stop your members from doing whatever it is you're worried about, either. Posting a code is easy. Enforcing it, not so much...

And that complaint has been made in the past about at least one of those organizations.

If ebay joined unnamed organization and promised to apply the rules to their sellers, what would they do when ebay failed to be 100% effective? Throw eBay out of the organization?

A buyer is actually better off with eBay than that organizations. At least ebay has since buyer's guarantees. Will the ethical organization reimburse you for fraud?

ricko

I am glad to see formal legal action being taken. I will wait to see what the verdict and resulting penalties are.... If not significant, then it will all have little impact on the scammers. Cheers, RickO

MasonG

@jmlanzaf said:
At least ebay has since buyer's guarantees. Will the ethical organization reimburse you for fraud?

Collectors Universe runs the Long Beach show. If you find that a coin you bought there is fake, will Collectors Universe refund your purchase price? eBay will if you buy a fake on their website.

PerryHall

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:
At least ebay has since buyer's guarantees. Will the ethical organization reimburse you for fraud?

Collectors Universe runs the Long Beach show. If you find that a coin you bought there is fake, will Collectors Universe refund your purchase price? eBay will if you buy a fake on their website.

Is it realistic for a coin show promoter to guarantee every coin being sold at that show?

MrEureka

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:
At least ebay has since buyer's guarantees. Will the ethical organization reimburse you for fraud?

Collectors Universe runs the Long Beach show. If you find that a coin you bought there is fake, will Collectors Universe refund your purchase price? eBay will if you buy a fake on their website.

eBay can do that because they get a commission on every sale.

cameonut2011

@lermish said:
This was from 2002

https://rbj.net/2002/03/01/online-or-off-caveat-emptor-is-the-golden-rule/

Online or off, caveat emptor is the golden rule
By: Will Astor March 1, 2002

When Henry Gottfried saw a mint-condition 1854 U.S. gold dollar in an eBay auction last month, he thought it would make the perfect gift for his son’s 25th birthday. He researched the seller and the coin, and placed a bid.
Gottfried, a vice president of the Greater Rochester Metro Chamber of Commerce Inc. and a frequent online purchaser, was elated when his nearly $1,300 bid won. The coin was worth substantially more. The seller, Richard Albright of Myersville, Md., had racked up rave reviews over the past year on eBay buyer feedback.
Gottfried’s son, David, a serious amateur coin collector, would be thrilled. What could be wrong?
Gottfried, however, never received the coin he ordered. He soon learned that neither did some 30 other people across the country who had placed winning bids on Albright’s coins. Gottfried concluded he had been scammed.
Albright has since been banned by eBay, the site reports. A scan of his recent eBay feedback pages shows more than 20 complaints, virtually all reporting checks or money orders cashed and coins not sent.
Gottfried’s case is hardly unique. Though law-enforcement authorities say the majority of online transactions are safe and getting safer, they acknowledge that online fraud is a persistent problem.e now has a good story to tell.

So he has been in business for more than 20 years, and they’re just suing him now?

MFeld

@cameonut2011 said:

@lermish said:
This was from 2002

https://rbj.net/2002/03/01/online-or-off-caveat-emptor-is-the-golden-rule/

Online or off, caveat emptor is the golden rule
By: Will Astor March 1, 2002

When Henry Gottfried saw a mint-condition 1854 U.S. gold dollar in an eBay auction last month, he thought it would make the perfect gift for his son’s 25th birthday. He researched the seller and the coin, and placed a bid.
Gottfried, a vice president of the Greater Rochester Metro Chamber of Commerce Inc. and a frequent online purchaser, was elated when his nearly $1,300 bid won. The coin was worth substantially more. The seller, Richard Albright of Myersville, Md., had racked up rave reviews over the past year on eBay buyer feedback.
Gottfried’s son, David, a serious amateur coin collector, would be thrilled. What could be wrong?
Gottfried, however, never received the coin he ordered. He soon learned that neither did some 30 other people across the country who had placed winning bids on Albright’s coins. Gottfried concluded he had been scammed.
Albright has since been banned by eBay, the site reports. A scan of his recent eBay feedback pages shows more than 20 complaints, virtually all reporting checks or money orders cashed and coins not sent.
Gottfried’s case is hardly unique. Though law-enforcement authorities say the majority of online transactions are safe and getting safer, they acknowledge that online fraud is a persistent problem.e now has a good story to tell.

So he has been in business for more than 20 years, and they’re just suing him now?

I don’t know when they became aware of his actions, but that date would be far more relevant.

MasonG

@PerryHall said:

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:
At least ebay has since buyer's guarantees. Will the ethical organization reimburse you for fraud?

Collectors Universe runs the Long Beach show. If you find that a coin you bought there is fake, will Collectors Universe refund your purchase price? eBay will if you buy a fake on their website.

Is it realistic for a coin show promoter to guarantee every coin being sold at that show?

eBay seems to be held to that standard. So why not?

cameonut2011

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Could eBay do more? Sure. But eBay does more than they get credit for and I think it is rather unfair to expect that they catch everything.

Agree 100%. eBay provides an option for the typical collector to buy and sell online that can't be matched anywhere else. They're not perfect, but who is?

There was a call for eBay to join PNG or the ANA earlier. How about Amazon? Or Facebook? Or Instagram? Or Craigslist? Or Walmart? Shouldn't they be expected to join, too? Or is it just eBay?

I also am not exactly sure what one of those organizations is doing that would cut down on fraud at all. Forcing (allegedly) your members to follow a code of conduct does nothing to prevent the non-members from doing whatever they want.

It doesn't necessarily stop your members from doing whatever it is you're worried about, either. Posting a code is easy. Enforcing it, not so much...

Agreed. Look at the PNG for example. Does anyone even know how to file a complaint? Some of the most flagrant violations of its code of conduct IMHO are a handful of PNG dealers.

MasonG

@MrEureka said:

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:
At least ebay has since buyer's guarantees. Will the ethical organization reimburse you for fraud?

Collectors Universe runs the Long Beach show. If you find that a coin you bought there is fake, will Collectors Universe refund your purchase price? eBay will if you buy a fake on their website.

eBay can do that because they get a commission on every sale.

Dealers pay a fee to have a table at a show.

cameonut2011

@Colombianito said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ianrussell said:
It's not shocking that eBay let the scammer back on their site. They have to, so they can make their quarterly numbers for wall street.

But seriously - at some point, eBay needs to take a stand. We invite them to join the PNG or the ANA. Or ANY numismatic body that has a code of ethics.

• Ian

Just for the record, how much does GC spend on background checks of consignors?

Thank you in advance.

Thats an unfair and stupid question . Coins are sent to GC where their numismatists verify authenticity . They are also vetted by the organizations Ian listed .

Your question really isn’t as clever as you think 🙄🙄

Agreed. I have no doubt that @ianrussell, Raleen, and staff monitor for fake slabs. They even note damage on legitimate slabs. And if a convincing fake were to ever make it by, I’m sure GC would step up and make it right. Comparing GC to Sleazebay is insulting.

cameonut2011

@MFeld said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@lermish said:
This was from 2002

https://rbj.net/2002/03/01/online-or-off-caveat-emptor-is-the-golden-rule/

Online or off, caveat emptor is the golden rule
By: Will Astor March 1, 2002

When Henry Gottfried saw a mint-condition 1854 U.S. gold dollar in an eBay auction last month, he thought it would make the perfect gift for his son’s 25th birthday. He researched the seller and the coin, and placed a bid.
Gottfried, a vice president of the Greater Rochester Metro Chamber of Commerce Inc. and a frequent online purchaser, was elated when his nearly $1,300 bid won. The coin was worth substantially more. The seller, Richard Albright of Myersville, Md., had racked up rave reviews over the past year on eBay buyer feedback.
Gottfried’s son, David, a serious amateur coin collector, would be thrilled. What could be wrong?
Gottfried, however, never received the coin he ordered. He soon learned that neither did some 30 other people across the country who had placed winning bids on Albright’s coins. Gottfried concluded he had been scammed.
Albright has since been banned by eBay, the site reports. A scan of his recent eBay feedback pages shows more than 20 complaints, virtually all reporting checks or money orders cashed and coins not sent.
Gottfried’s case is hardly unique. Though law-enforcement authorities say the majority of online transactions are safe and getting safer, they acknowledge that online fraud is a persistent problem.e now has a good story to tell.

So he has been in business for more than 20 years, and they’re just suing him now?

I don’t know when they became aware of his actions, but that date would be far more relevant.

Fair point, but even assuming NGC just figured it out, it is shocking he could have stayed hidden for so long. You would have thought that there would be a trail of denied guarantee claims that would have aroused suspicion.

MFeld

@cameonut2011 said:

@MFeld said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@lermish said:
This was from 2002

https://rbj.net/2002/03/01/online-or-off-caveat-emptor-is-the-golden-rule/

Online or off, caveat emptor is the golden rule
By: Will Astor March 1, 2002

When Henry Gottfried saw a mint-condition 1854 U.S. gold dollar in an eBay auction last month, he thought it would make the perfect gift for his son’s 25th birthday. He researched the seller and the coin, and placed a bid.
Gottfried, a vice president of the Greater Rochester Metro Chamber of Commerce Inc. and a frequent online purchaser, was elated when his nearly $1,300 bid won. The coin was worth substantially more. The seller, Richard Albright of Myersville, Md., had racked up rave reviews over the past year on eBay buyer feedback.
Gottfried’s son, David, a serious amateur coin collector, would be thrilled. What could be wrong?
Gottfried, however, never received the coin he ordered. He soon learned that neither did some 30 other people across the country who had placed winning bids on Albright’s coins. Gottfried concluded he had been scammed.
Albright has since been banned by eBay, the site reports. A scan of his recent eBay feedback pages shows more than 20 complaints, virtually all reporting checks or money orders cashed and coins not sent.
Gottfried’s case is hardly unique. Though law-enforcement authorities say the majority of online transactions are safe and getting safer, they acknowledge that online fraud is a persistent problem.e now has a good story to tell.

So he has been in business for more than 20 years, and they’re just suing him now?

I don’t know when they became aware of his actions, but that date would be far more relevant.

Fair point, but even assuming NGC just figured it out, it is shocking he could have stayed hidden for so long. You would have thought that there would be a trail of denied guarantee claims that would have aroused suspicion.

I don’t know when the defendant initiated those activities. But even if it was long ago, if the buyers were mostly unknowledgeable about grading, it’s not a great surprise to me that there wasn’t a trail of denied guarantee claims.

MetroD

@cameonut2011 said:
Agreed. I have no doubt that @ianrussell, Raleen, and staff monitor for fake slabs. They even note damage on legitimate slabs. And if a convincing fake were to ever make it by, I’m sure GC would step up and make it right. Comparing GC to Sleazebay is insulting.

To be fair, I do NOT know what GC would actually do in this hypothetical situation.

That said, their T&C explicitly indicate that they are under no legal obligation to do anything should this occur, as all sales are "as is", even with respect to authenticity.

Source: https://www.greatcollections.com/main-terms

tcollects

The only way to put an end to such devious behavior...

tcollects

@tcollects said:
The only way to put an end to such devious behavior...

They're burning his junk while he's still alive

DelawareDoons

While I laud NGC for going after this individual, the reality is NGC holders will be prone to tampering until they get serious about making them tougher to tamper with. You can place one in a vise and pop it open, then put it back together VERY easily. It's incredible really, how simple it is, and is why I prefer PCGS when it comes to modern slabs. I regularly crack both and PCGS slabs are pretty much impossible to get apart without damage. As long as I'm being careful, I can successfully salvage the NGC casing 2/3rds of the time.

TLDR: Screw this guy but NGC needs to fix their slabs.

jmlanzaf

@MasonG said:

@MrEureka said:

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:
At least ebay has since buyer's guarantees. Will the ethical organization reimburse you for fraud?

Collectors Universe runs the Long Beach show. If you find that a coin you bought there is fake, will Collectors Universe refund your purchase price? eBay will if you buy a fake on their website.

eBay can do that because they get a commission on every sale.

Dealers pay a fee to have a table at a show.

And in some sense isn't ebay just a "show promoter"? They don't handle or own any of the coins. They just provide a space for dealers.