Semi numismatic precious metal coins
Crusty
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Semi numismatic precious metal coins…
A few examples (Gold First spouses, Modern Gold commemoratives, gold proof eagles, Platinum proof eagles, proof silver eagles, ATB P mint 5oz pucks, etc….) would love to hear any thoughts and input on these series and any others that I have left out.
-Which semi numismatic PM coins have you dabbled in? Why did you choose that particular series?
-What series do you think has the most long term (20 years) upside potential.
-Which series is doomed to be a loser forever?
-What series is the toughest to put together?
-Do you think OGP is important to keep and preserve? Is graded 70 coins your thing?
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I bought American Gold Eagles (MS) $5, $10, & a $25 in 1991 with hopes of completing yearly sets. It never happened. But, I got those 3 coins PCGS graded and they all graded MS69. I still have them and I'm glad I kept them. Boy, did the $10 and $25 coins take off! Will they keep going? Who knows???
Dabble in them all.
In addition to your list of modern US Mint coin offerings, there are plenty of other very interesting PM related items.
Medals are worth collecting, not just coins. Many medals are very limited in mintages with great designs and often high quality. Some have very serious collectors and values usually do quite well over time. In addition to US Mint National Commemorative medals, I enjoy collecting PM products from independent mints like those from Moonlight Mint, Liberty dollar, Silver Shield, Heraldic art, Medallic art, Gold Standard, So-Called dollars, Hawaiian Mint Dala, etc.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Of the coins you have listed there, I have picked up many modern gold $5 commems over the years. They have almost all been picked up raw and with original government packaging, though I store the empty boxes in a larger cardboard box and keep the coins in a SDB. The modern gold $5 commems are a dog of a series, in my opinion, but the more attractive coins are nice enough and they are standard gold content so that makes them quite liquid.
As an aside, when I was in grad school I used to do long bike rides at night up and down the streets of Providence, RI and many times folks would just place large containers of beer cans out for the trash. This was before recycling was a "thing" so I would gather up the loose beer cans in a canvas bag or two, drape them over the handlebars of my bike and bring them to the local 24hr grocery store for deposit. Before long I had enough to purchase two modern gold $5 commems simply from picking up those cans while on my rides. Can't do that now!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Those are all very good questions, and the above posts also offer some very good insights. Some of my own experiences & observations about each:
Gold First Spouses - If you study the mintages, you can clearly see that the series was never really a hot item, and that the popularity declined as the series progressed. People at the time referred to some of them in unkindly ways. In a way, the series reminds me of the classic commemorative half dollar series which was never that popular but over time, several issues became sought after, and now they can rightly be considered desirable. Because the spouses are .999 gold, they will always have price support floor underneath them. In my opinion, time will be a friend to some and maybe more than a few of these coins, but I also think that many of them will always be not much more than bullion coins - at least for the next 50 years or so.
Modern Gold Commemoratives - Many of the same considerations apply to these as to the Gold Spouses. The coins are the same alloy & weight as the older classic gold issues instead of being .999 gold. This series has had several low mintage issues, each one seemingly a lower mintage than the previous issues, and a new key in the making somewhat often. Low mintages are sometimes due to poor design or mediocre subject matter - resulting in low demand. Also, collector funds get spread out between too many Modern series by the Mint and this series always seems to be an afterthought. Nevertheless, I do think that over time a completed collection will be both valuable and somewhat interesting for those who spend the time & money to collect the series.
Gold Proof Eagles - This series has become a long-running series that represents a major investment over time and even in the short run. My impression is that there are a significant enough number of collectors that the series will always be strong, and in many cases, the Gold Proofs are given as gifts for special occasions and those coins are very slow to ever come back into the market. The mintages have varied over the years, but there are a fair number of issues that have low enough mintages that can be considered to be sleepers. With these proofs, preservation is paramount because they can sometimes develop discolorations due to the environment or even a poor alloy mix at the Mint. My opinion is very positive for the long term potential in each of the denominations. People just love the look of well-kept gold proofs.
Platinum Proof Eagles - the Proof Plats have always had a limited audience but should be considered as the pinnacle of modern coinage artistically and topically as well. The mintages have fluctuated, but sometimes the value of an issue is more a reflection of market scarcity or grade than of mintage. Many of the early issues in PR-70 have reached higher levels even though the mintages weren't that low, while the same issues in PR-69 are still somewhat reasonable. Platinum Uncs can be even tougher than the proofs, because not many were graded in high grades early in the series. Platinum prices have been historically low for years now because the automotive industry transitioned to palladium mainly, but that trend may be reversing now. One headwind for the Proof Plats has always been the Mint's high premiums while resale premiums don't always hold and these factors may have served to limit the number of collectors. Still, the fact that some of the Platinum Eagle issues have reached high price levels indicates to me that the series has a small but strong following, and the long term potential is good, if not excellent.
Proof Silver Eagles - I haven't paid attention to this series ever since Phillip Diehl included the 1995-W in the Gold Proof Set, making it difficult to justify the purchase. Since then, the series seems to have morphed into so many varieties and different finishes, that you have to be a specialist just to keep up. Some of these issues are lower mintages and have done well in the aftermarket, but again - unless you become fairly devoted to every nuance and new development, the blizzard of special issues gets to be an ongoing challenge. I consider the series to be it's own world, with some decent potential if you want to devote the time. There is a downside to the issue of milk spots and preservation for Proof Silver Eagles, and there is always a chance that a poor batch of coins or poor storage conditions can spoil your investment.
The 5 oz. ATB coins did create some excitement when first issued, but the excitement died down within a few years. The "P" issues with a vapor blast finish have lower mintages than their no mintmark counterparts, but it seems that in true US Mint fashion, the Mint issued so many different issues in so short a time frame that they flooded the market and collector interest mostly died. Other world mints have issued large coins in continuing series at one per year, and those coins seem to garner more interest than the ATB pucks have. I tend to think that this series will be a collecting backwater at least until the price of silver begins a serious rise. If silver ever tops $35 or $40 an ounce, I think you might see interest in the pucks make a major move up.
One consideration in each of these series - is that they each have an uncirculated and a proof component. In many cases, the more "common" uncirculated versions of each series will present as much or more potential than the proofs in the same series. The reasons for this are because sometimes, the uncirculated coins are neglected and not saved or graded as they are issued, resulting in a scarcity of the coins in a collectable state, and sometimes the mintages of the uncs are much lower compared to the corresponding proofs. The 1991 uncirculated Gold Eagles alluded to in USMC's post (above) is a perfect example. Some of the uncirculated Gold Eagles from 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991 and 1992 are quite desirable for that reason. Not many were saved or collected. This same sort of potential still exists in some of the Modern Bullion series, if you can identify them as potential investment candidates for 15 years out. The 2008-W 1/4 oz. Burnished Gold Eagle is a good example that this forum identified as a good long term investment when it was first issued, mainly due to the low mintage prior to the cutoff date. 16 years later, this coin is widely recognized as a key.
Two other series worth considering are the Gold Buffalos and the Burnished Gold Eagles. Some of these issues have become high-priced almost unexpectedly, and both of these series have the advantage a floor in the price of gold. As time goes on, both of these series are becoming harder in which to assemble a top notch collection. In my opinion, that's always a good sign for future price appreciation.
That's my perspective. In short, I think that the modern bullion coins are GREAT, both in terms of execution and potential price appreciation,
I knew it would happen.
Gold U.S. Mint coins are a good solid investment IMO. I like the full size, one ounce coins. Purchased twenty to twenty five years ago, they have moved significantly with the price of gold. The indications are, gold will continue to move up in value. Cheers, RickO
Thanks for all the responses so far. @jmski52 as always I really appreciate your time and insights you shared. For now I am tackling the first spouses and modern gold commem’s (both in unc with OGP). Hoping to get the spouses knocked out by end of summer. The older modern gold commem’s have proven tough to find with the OGP. Which is partly why I chose to buy them with OGP. Just adds a little layer of difficulty. Because of this hurdle the set may drag on over the next year or two? I am looking forward to opening up another series or two! I have been studying them slowly and have yet to decide.
Here are my thoughts (pros and cons) on some of the series…
First spouse- I can’t think of another series that provides a better buying opportunity. The demand is almost non existent right now. But If you’re a bullion stacker it’s hard to find cheaper half ounce gold right now. And while they sell for close to melt the series is flush with low mintage (even lower survival) issues. It’s nice to be able to buy gold and know there is always a PM floor to the purchase but also have potential upside if they ever gain traction. I chose the UNCs due to the lower mintages. I may tackle proofs when I’m done with the UNCs just because I don’t see any downside risk with such minuscule premiums. I do admit most of them are hideous!
Silver eagles- There is so many different finishes, mint mark, privy, and sets that it’s become “gimmicky” for lack of a better word. I don’t see the upside for spending hundreds or thousands of dollars for a privy. Obviously the market disagrees with me. But for me I just don’t get it. I do buy an eagle here or there if I can get a low premium coin but that has become a rare thing. None of them are rare compared to other semi numismatic series and the premiums for most of them have reached full potential in my view. Plus the potential for milk spots can’t be ignored. I won’t be going down this road. If you disagree with me, please explain what I’m missing?
Platinum Eagles- I am very intrigued by the proof Platinum eagles. The beauty of some of them is a thing to behold. The mintages of some of the proofs and UNCs are very appealing. However the premiums are very mature and it’s hard to see them growing much more for most of the issues. For example, I love the 2015 design but paying 3-5k (depending on bells and whistles) for one seems steep. I don’t think the value is there but because I love the look and design I will likely end up buying one even though I think there are better opportunities. But would I do the same if it were 8k or 10k….. No! The market is very small for platinum. But it’s a rare metal and I will likely begin to dabble in them in them later this year. The problem I have is once I dabble, I usually go deeper!
Gold proof eagles- Have not studied them enough to make an informed opinion but I like gold and love the proof look. Can’t see myself buying a privy example or anything like that but I think it would be very cool to complete a large series Ike this and acquire gold. Premium compared to spot is high but not as high as platinum. I can definitely see myself starting this set at some point. But I’ll try to snag an example or two when I see deals pop up.
ATB 5 oz pucks- They take up a lot of room! Not rare and the 25 cent denomination was a bad idea. I won’t go down this road. Silver milk spots or other tarnish is a real concern with any silver product and that is a big issue if you go to sell.
My gut says the silver product the mint puts out is a bad bet. Money would be better used buying lower premium silver like Junk or rounds… I do believe silver has more upside then gold right now. But I fear it will be quite some time before silver has its day.
I like spouses and modern commemoratives. Stay away from the proof stuff unless attained at the same price a Uncs.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
For the most part, I expect most of this market to fall into the permanent loser category, from a financial point of view. So I would follow the standard advice, collect what you like! In the end you should be able to get about melt and so it won't be worthless, so have fun with whatever seems cool to you.
I collect the 1999 platinum proofs, as I like the design. I don't care about 70, and with patience I have been able to find some for not too much more than melt. When I get one with OGP the packaging goes in the trash. There is a five year series or so, 1999-2004 maybe, of the platinum proofs that looks like a fun collection.
The 5 oz pucks seem kind of interesting, as nice big hunks of metal, though I don't have any. Maybe someday.
Double eagles, $10 and $5 Indians back before the reddit fake news premium because we gots another shortage hype story. You could find most slabbed at spot (or less) during the times of nobody wanting Au. as recently as 2018-19 , EZ THKS!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
@element159 - I think you are aligned with how most collectors feel about OGP. It is big and bulky and people don’t want it…but…. I think those that hold onto it will be rewarded 50-100 years from now. But who knows? I also agree with buy what you like. But it’s also fun to speculate a bit. 70s really don’t draw me in either. I suppose if there was a negligible difference in premium I’d buy them. But not on silver items, the risk of turning in the holder would make me sick.
Are you starting to collect what you mentioned above raw and mostly with OGP? Or are you considering a mixed set of 69's or 70's in PCGS slabs and starting sets in the PCGS registry?
Many raw modern PM coins, with or without OGP, especially those with better dates and lower surviving mintages, have been picked through. Some of those selling for the lowest cost will be lower quality. It is difficult to judge quality in most eBay type photos.
Quality and scarcity are important if you want to get longer term premiums above melt. Have you looked at the PCGS registry? Many modern PM coin collectors do see value in collecting coins that have been slabbed. The slabs provide a level of security, and the certificate numbers allow easier record keeping. The registry can also indicate the number of collectors that are interested in a given series.
Modern PM coins with 70 grades and low population numbers in slabs, especially those with lower mintages and popular designs, will likely command higher prices in the collector market longer term.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
I've been waiting to see what Goldminers has to say. I would defer to his opinions when it comes to precious metal Moderns.
I knew it would happen.
I waited to see what jmski52 had to say
and he provided an excellent summary.
One advantage the ATB pucks have is they are a now complete modern set from 2010-2021, with no new issues to worry about collecting. Some uncirculated MS69DMPL examples are scarce, and also very difficult to get graded now. I prefer their look over the vapor blasted versions.
The fractional gold buffaloes, roman numeral gold eagles, and modern high relief coins are nice collectable modern subsets. I think these all have good potential in addition to the burnished eagles already mentioned. The Jefferson, Jackson, Van Buren, and Buchanan liberty spouses are also a nice subset to collect with classic designs.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
@Goldminers - I have mix of raw, 69 and 70. I don't actively seek out the 70 coins but sometimes the difference is minuscule. I don’t buy anything without being able to return. I’m not into the competitive registry. I’m more into acquiring bullion. I’m not knocking the guys doing the registry with all 70 coins but it’s just not for me. I figure there is more potential upside buying the spouses and Gold commems than a gold bullion eagle. Especially when I can find them often times for less.
I do believe you’re right about a lot of them being picked over. A while back I ordered 6 spouses from APMEX and I ended up having to return a couple. I have had much better success buying from private collectors here on the forum and elsewhere.
There is probably more upside buying 70 coins if you end up picking a winner. But there is unc more downside as well.
I have been thinking long and hard about Platinum and I’m about 75% of the way there. Still deciding if I should just pick the lower mintage MS dates and snag them as I can for as low of a premium as possible. Or if I’m going to splurge a bit and dabble in some of my favorite design proofs.
I tend to stay away from the silver mint products. I enjoy buying junk silver and filling albums with my boys.
The interesting thing about platinum US mint products is that other than the 2006-2008 West Point burnished coins, the proofs are the ones with many of the lower mintages. They also look the best with no threat of any spotting or distracting tarnish.
I collect both, but the proofs will probably have more collector's long term. It is unfortunate the Mint charges so much premium for them.
Quality is an issue to consider for future scarcity. Less than 5% of the uncirculated platinum fractional coins will grade 70 and some of those are now ridiculously expensive. About 30-40% of the proofs grade 70. Since you are after lower premiums, that may not matter, but a nice set of 69's could be a good option. I started collecting them that way and have a lot of spares available.
Fabulous that you have sons who can enjoy some classic silver coin album collecting.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
@Crusty said:
I’m more into acquiring bullion. I’m not knocking the guys doing the registry with all 70 coins but it’s just not for me. I figure there is more potential upside buying the spouses and Gold commems than a gold bullion eagle. Especially when I can find them often times for less.
I can't speak to the potential for the Gold Spouses or the Gold Commems, other than what I already observed - there will always be a gold bullion floor under the prices. Some of the issues will no doubt become highly-sought over time - but the timing is certainly unpredictable and in my opinion will be heavily dependent upon how the bullion market is doing.
Like Goldminers, I also started collecting modern bullion series graded 69, especially if I could snag them near the price of bullion (which kinda depends on market conditions at that moment.) It's true that many times you simply can't discern why the graders chose 69 instead of 70, or vice versa. I've had experience in both directions. My rationale was simply that I wanted to collect the series, and 69 usually represents a very nice specimen - so why not try to kill two birds with one stone (lower price, nice quality).
Nevertheless, it's also true that a higher grade is more likely to net a higher return on investment over time and over a cross-section of examples. And (unfortunately?) once you get hooked by a series, you begin to study things like population reports, price guides, auction results, etc. It's easy to get hooked if you are a collector or even if you are an investor/speculator.
I have been thinking long and hard about Platinum and I’m about 75% of the way there. Still deciding if I should just pick the lower mintage MS dates and snag them as I can for as low of a premium as possible. Or if I’m going to splurge a bit and dabble in some of my favorite design proofs.
Even though the number of Platinum Eagle collectors is relatively small compared to other modern bullion series, I've observed that the lower mintage coins, and the lower population coins are well-recognized by both collectors and dealers, so getting a bargain for a low mintage Unc Platinum Eagle in 70 is a rather uncommon happening, or I should say, an unheard-of happening. In 69 grade, it can go either way - some issues pop up frequently, others don't very often. That's a function of a maturing series, I think.
Regardless of the grade, I've come to the conclusion that in order to get a decent deal, you do have to study pricing and availability over time.
I would advise that you make a plan for what you want to acquire by looking at costs for a particular grouping of coins before jumping in. You can always expand or enhance your collection after you know somewhat to expect.
Happy Hunting!
I knew it would happen.
@jmski52 -Great advice. I have already begun tracking the different dates I’m interested in. Unfortunately the ones I like best are also the most expensive. I will definitely keep you updated once I get started.
there are plenty of other very interesting PM related items.
Indeed, I have mostly coins. But, got this 1971 German gold medal (.900 purity) at spot price a few weeks ago. Has scratches, but hey; gold is gold, right?
Usually the best aftermarket gold bargain when buying US mint products.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey