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Mahomes is going to replace Brady as GOAT?

spacehaydukespacehayduke Posts: 5,468 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited February 10, 2023 7:57PM in Sports Talk

Simply put Mahomes is a far better athlete than stiffed up Brady. Yes Brady has won 7 SBs. Is it all him or the system and luck? He is good and right now GOAT. But Mahomes has the potential to be the greatest qb so far if he can sustain it. He is just so good, so natural. Brady was well trained, executed well, and played in a system that suited him, all which resulted in a lot of success. He was also very smart. But in terms of pure athleticism, he is no Mahomes. So let's see where we are at in 20 years (LOL), barring injuries, we might be saying Mahomes = GOAT. Just sayin'....................


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Comments

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 29,456 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It could happen, but it's how you define the GOAT is the question, Lamar Jackson is 10x the athlete that Brady ever was but not even in the same conversation as him regarding any best ever talk.

    Mahomes is awesome no doubt, if he plays long enough he could very well be in the conversation

  • GroceryRackPackGroceryRackPack Posts: 2,437 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is Patrick going to replace Tom as GOAT?
    I'll keep that mystery unsolved for a while... B)

  • MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,884 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2023 11:02AM

    @spacehayduke, you need to nail these guys down with a definition and criteria for what the GOAT is or it will be changed whenever Mahomes achieves certain accomplishments. For one, I doubt any QB will ever pass Tom Brady in yards at 100k, but is that a qualifier?? The same with Super Bowls. We got to see both men play at the same time and during the last five years while one was on his way up and the other on his way down I think Mahomes proved to be the better player. It's those almost 20 years before that which has Brady at the summit with Mahomes still climbing to reach him.

  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,126 ✭✭✭✭✭

    he already has an uphill battle to begin with, but if he loses tomorrow and drops to 1-2 in Super Bowls, it's going to get very steep

    (for the record i predict the Chiefs are going to win)

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,493 ✭✭✭✭✭

    hahahahaha

    hahahahaha

    hahahahahahahaha

    Is this april fools day?? not a chance.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,493 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Mahomes is a great athlete. there have been tons of great athletes that played QB. Better athletes than Mahomes. Vick, Cunningham, Elway, Young.

    only one Brady

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2023 7:53AM

    Mahomes better win today, then. :)

    He IS a great QB and the departure of Hill just shows you that keeping together a great team with the salary cap and every rookie looking out for their 2nd and 3rd contracts is extremely difficult.

    If he didn't connect with Hill with about 7 minutes left 3 years ago and if Garrapolo didn't miss on that potential TD throw with about 3 minutes left, he might still be looking for his 1st SB win.

    For whatever reasons, it seems his BEST year was his 1st one -- somewhat similar to Trevor Lawrence in college, whose freshman year was HIS best at Clemson, too. I thought each would be better -- if possible -- the next few years but they weren't.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Mahomes is the better athlete, but he runs around too much to have a career as long as Brady’s career was. He is not going to put up the passing yardage numbers nor the touch down pass numbers.

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  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    Mahomes is the better athlete, but he runs around too much to have a career as long as Brady’s career was. He is not going to put up the passing yardage numbers nor the touch down pass numbers.

    ....
    I think that Mahomes can win as a pure pocket passer.

  • pdoidoipdoidoi Posts: 482 ✭✭✭

    I would not bet one cent that Mahomes could pass Brady. I do think he has a great chance to catch Marsha Brady though.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thisistheshow said:

    @BillJones said:
    Mahomes is the better athlete, but he runs around too much to have a career as long as Brady’s career was. He is not going to put up the passing yardage numbers nor the touch down pass numbers.

    ....
    I think that Mahomes can win as a pure pocket passer.

    No if his knees are ruined. He will need to have a great offensive line in front of him, and good receivers. That's one of the reasons why Brady left New England. He needed someone to throw to, and he didn't have it there at the end.

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  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,716 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If he wins today that will be a start in that direction but still far far away from passing Brady.

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:

    @thisistheshow said:

    @BillJones said:
    Mahomes is the better athlete, but he runs around too much to have a career as long as Brady’s career was. He is not going to put up the passing yardage numbers nor the touch down pass numbers.

    ....
    I think that Mahomes can win as a pure pocket passer.

    No if his knees are ruined. He will need to have a great offensive line in front of him, and good receivers. That's one of the reasons why Brady left New England. He needed someone to throw to, and he didn't have it there at the end.

    ...
    You're right about the knees.

    Mahomes has the kind of game and skill that he can be great just from the pocket. So here's a question...if next year the Chiefs decided (for the sake of longevity) to install a passing offense very similar to the one Brady ran, what would his career look like? Remember, Brady as a statue is a bit of a misnomer. His pocket movement and awareness is elite. There is also a psychology to it...meaning he knows he is not going to try to escape, so he learned how to make it work.

    This is really just a thought exercise.

  • spacehaydukespacehayduke Posts: 5,468 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2023 8:32PM

    THE NEW GOAT COMETH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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  • DarinDarin Posts: 6,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Of course the GOAT talk is way too soon but look at Brady and Mahomes numbers through their first 5 full seasons. Mahomes pretty much dominates except for Super Bowl wins. Brady 3, Mahomes 2.
    But Brady didn’t get number 4 until ten years later.

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  • spacehaydukespacehayduke Posts: 5,468 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Darin said:
    Of course the GOAT talk is way too soon but look at Brady and Mahomes numbers through their first 5 full seasons. Mahomes pretty much dominates except for Super Bowl wins. Brady 3, Mahomes 2.
    But Brady didn’t get number 4 until ten years later.

    If anyone can surpass Brady as GOAT, I think it is Mahomes, we will just have to see and decide in 20 years how to define it. Just like James vs. Jordan, who is GOAT? Jordan has more championships, but James has better overall stats. We might be looking at something like this if Mahomes can keep it going, or.............


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  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 29,456 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @spacehayduke said:

    @Darin said:
    Of course the GOAT talk is way too soon but look at Brady and Mahomes numbers through their first 5 full seasons. Mahomes pretty much dominates except for Super Bowl wins. Brady 3, Mahomes 2.
    But Brady didn’t get number 4 until ten years later.

    If anyone can surpass Brady as GOAT, I think it is Mahomes, we will just have to see and decide in 20 years how to define it. Just like James vs. Jordan, who is GOAT? Jordan has more championships, but James has better overall stats. We might be looking at something like this if Mahomes can keep it going, or.............

    He has a ways to go but he sure as hell is doing well so far

  • DarinDarin Posts: 6,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I just want to see Mahomes and the Chiefs stay one step ahead of Joe Burrow, Josh Allen, Justin Herbert, Trevor Lawrence etc. because it’s a hell of an accomplishment to beat those AFC teams and just get to the Super Bowl. 🥳

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  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Darin said:
    I just want to see Mahomes and the Chiefs stay one step ahead of Joe Burrow, Josh Allen, Justin Herbert, Trevor Lawrence etc. because it’s a hell of an accomplishment to beat those AFC teams and just get to the Super Bowl. 🥳

    ..
    It is a hard road to get to the conference championship, let alone SB, let alone win it all.

  • BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 8,013 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Don't know, may be too soon to predict but he is on the right track. I think he had more pressure on him to win this than Hurts had. Based on/only because PM has been touted for so long. He had to deliver a second win here.

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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,493 ✭✭✭✭✭

    a lot of things have to go perfectly for Mahomes to catch Tommy.

    and he has to play for another 15 years plus.

    I dont believe he will play into his 40s. unless his style of play changes.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • fergie23fergie23 Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭✭

    I think Mahomes is the heir apparent. I have been picking up his cards since his 2018 breakout.

    The streak of 5 straight AFC championship game appearances is Brady-esque. I didn't think anyone would even come close to the 8 straight AFC championship games Brady and the Pats went to but somehow Mahomes is now at 5.

    I doubt Mahomes will have the same longevity as Brady but I saw somewhere in the lead up to the SB that Mahomes was the #1 pocket passer in the NFL this season. So I think that speaks well to his ability to transition from scrambling to spending more time in the pocket as he ages.

    Also, his contract is likely to age well as the salary cap keeps increasing. He isn't nearly as cap friendly as Brady was for the Pats (he also doesn't have a wife that out earns him) but he locked in early enough that he won't be the highest paid QB every year and hamstring the front office. I think maintaining a great team once the QB gets off his rookie contract is the hardest balancing act in football, along with competing on a division winner schedule. The Bengals and Eagles are going to learn that the next 2 years. Though the Eagles might be willing to try drafting another QB and have someone else pay Hurts.

    Robb

  • 1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2023 11:24AM

    @spacehayduke said:

    @Darin said:
    Of course the GOAT talk is way too soon but look at Brady and Mahomes numbers through their first 5 full seasons. Mahomes pretty much dominates except for Super Bowl wins. Brady 3, Mahomes 2.
    But Brady didn’t get number 4 until ten years later.

    If anyone can surpass Brady as GOAT, I think it is Mahomes, we will just have to see and decide in 20 years how to define it. Just like James vs. Jordan, who is GOAT? Jordan has more championships, but James has better overall stats. We might be looking at something like this if Mahomes can keep it going, or.............

    Funny I was telling a buddy yesterday that Mahomes has more 'Jordan' in him than Brady does...creating, making something out of nothing, elite physical skills, and that drive and toughness too.

    I don't think anyone will ever match Brady's elite longevity but that isn't an automatic ticket to being considered the greatest(just like it isn't Lebron's over Jordan's). That is always the great discussion though.

    If you are looking at their peaks, Mahomes is an equal of Brady right now IMO. That includes statistically and intangibles. It includes winning too.

    Physical measurables Mahomes has an edge.

    Mahomes 5 year peak so far compared to Brady...

    Mahomes...................................Brady(2015-2019).....Brady(2007-12. He missed one year here in the middle so just did rates).
    QB Record 63-16.......................59-17..............................66-15
    2 Super Bowl wins.......................3 Super Bowl wins.........0 Super Bowl
    Averaged 4,791 yds a year.........4,262...........................
    Averaged 38 TD a year.................29.8
    Averaged 9 INT a year.....................7.2
    QB rating of 106...............................99.8................................Rating of 105.4
    QBR's of 80.3, 78.1, 77.7, 77.6, 62.2.............79.4, 70.6, 68.4, 68.4, 55.7.............87, 79, 74, 73.9, 76.

    In their five year peak dang, it is super close. I would give the edge to Mahomes over the 2015-19 Brady, and a draw in the 2007-12 Brady. Thing is, Brady has two of those peaks, and a few other top notch ones as well. Mahomes has some work to do still of course.

  • I made a mistake above, Brady didn't have any Super Bowls in the 2007-12 run, but statistically was his closest comparison to Mahomes. I would give Mahome the edge in his peak compared to that peak for Brady.

    Right now Mahomes has a five year peak slightly better than Brady's best five year peak IMO.

  • DarinDarin Posts: 6,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1948swell- wouldn’t it be more fair to compare mahomes first 5 years to. Brady’s first 5 years?

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  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,179 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is a hot topic today on local sports talk radio here in New England. I think having this conversation is way too early to compare Brady's long career to what Mahomes has done to date in his. Like Darin says above,its better to compare how each started their career over their first 5-6 seasons because that would make more sense. A case can be made that no QB has had a better first 6 seasons in the NFL than Mahomes.

    I think any comparison to Brady's career or argument for who is the greatest ever needs to account for all of the career passing records,the winning percentage and not only the number of rings but also the number of SB appearences. Right now,I really wouldn't put Mahomes on Brady's level or even Montana's. I'd say he closer to a Manning,Staubach or Roethlisberger but if we had to choose one QB who could possibly come close to a Tom Brady type of career,I would say its Mahomes.

    Side topic: Brady always had an in conference nemesis that was capable of carrying teams to multiple SB wins in Peyton Manning and Ben Roethliseberger, we'll have to see who steps up to be that guy in the Mahomes era.

  • @Darin said:
    1948swell- wouldn’t it be more fair to compare mahomes first 5 years to. Brady’s first 5 years?

    If you are looking at a career trajectory of sort, then maybe. Brady got better as he went on(as most do). It is possible Mahomes is already as good as he is going to be. It is possible Mahomes gets better(scary if he does).

    Since this is all we have for Mahomes so far I just went with Brady's best peaks. It is pretty impressive that Mahomes stands toe to toe with Brady's best peak already. Who knows how it will play out going forward.

  • MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,884 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2023 9:30PM

    @erikthredd said: Like Darin says above, its better to compare how each started their career over their first 5-6 seasons

    These numbers for their first six seasons aren't really close.
    Completion % --- Mahomes leads 66.3% - 57.2%.
    Passing Yards --- Mahomes leads 24,241 - 18,035.
    Touchdown Passes --- Mahomes leads 192 - 123.
    Interceptions --- Both players have 49 although Mahomes threw 445 more passes.

  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,179 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Maywood said:
    @erikthredd said: ** Like Darin says above, its better to compare how each started their career over their first 5-6 seasons**

    These numbers for their first six seasons aren't really close.
    Completion % --- Mahomes leads 66.3% - 57.2%.
    Passing Yards --- Mahomes leads 24,241 - 18,035.
    Touchdown Passes --- Mahomes leads 192 - 123.
    Interceptions --- Both players have 49 although Mahomes threw 445 more passes.

    I bet if you asked each QB which start would he prefer, Great passing stats w/2-1 in the SB or Good passing stats w/3-0 in the SB I'd love to hear their answer. 😎

    Another thing to factor in,KC traded up to draft Mahomes then he was groomed to be the starter one year later while the front office built the offense around him in his first few seasons.

    In Brady's case,he went from the 6th round to becoming 4th string QB during his rookie year. then as the #3QB in year 2 Belichick threw him out there after Bledsoe got hurt, the rest is history. Bill certainly didn't build around Brady those early years leaving Tom to work with who he had. Finally in 2007 BB actually got Brady some ProBowl level talent on offense.

  • MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,884 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I imagine both would be content to have it as it is, satisfied with what's happened.

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It is a common complaint by some that Brady is only considered the GOAT because of his

    @erikthredd said:

    @Maywood said:
    @erikthredd said: ** Like Darin says above, its better to compare how each started their career over their first 5-6 seasons**

    These numbers for their first six seasons aren't really close.
    Completion % --- Mahomes leads 66.3% - 57.2%.
    Passing Yards --- Mahomes leads 24,241 - 18,035.
    Touchdown Passes --- Mahomes leads 192 - 123.
    Interceptions --- Both players have 49 although Mahomes threw 445 more passes.

    I bet if you asked each QB which start would he prefer, Great passing stats w/2-1 in the SB or Good passing stats w/3-0 in the SB I'd love to hear their answer. 😎

    Another thing to factor in,KC traded up to draft Mahomes then he was groomed to be the starter one year later while the front office built the offense around him in his first few seasons.

    In Brady's case,he went from the 6th round to becoming 4th string QB during his rookie year. then as the #3QB in year 2 Belichick threw him out there after Bledsoe got hurt, the rest is history. Bill certainly didn't build around Brady those early years leaving Tom to work with who he had. Finally in 2007 BB actually got Brady some ProBowl level talent on offense.

    .........
    I understand and lived through your point about Brady finally getting some talent around him later into his career. If you are on the side of Brady as GOAT you understand that he made lemons into lemonade and continued to do that throughout his career.

    As I think more about this, it is amazing to think back to the arc of Brady's career.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,493 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Who had better weapons in their first 6 seasons?

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • 1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭✭

    @Maywood said:
    @erikthredd said: Like Darin says above, its better to compare how each started their career over their first 5-6 seasons

    These numbers for their first six seasons aren't really close.
    Completion % --- Mahomes leads 66.3% - 57.2%.
    Passing Yards --- Mahomes leads 24,241 - 18,035.
    Touchdown Passes --- Mahomes leads 192 - 123.
    Interceptions --- Both players have 49 although Mahomes threw 445 more passes.

    I didn't use their first seasons because you are dong a disservice to Mahomes. You don't need to qualifty Mahomes greatness by limiting it to "their first five seasons."

    Mahomes's first five seasons are as good as ANYONE's BEST five seasons at any time. That is more impressive.

    As for going forward, it is possible Mahomes is already at his peak. It is possible he gets a little better. It is even possible he gets dinged up a little and regresses. That is why the jury is obviously still out on comparing to Brady.

    The peak comparison is already in the books, and Mahomes is as good as Brady at that peak level, and probably a hair above.

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 29,456 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2023 7:30AM

    What people forget is Bradys first 6 seasons were not statistically great, he got those Super Bowl wins but it was all about his ability to make plays without Stud WR's and managing games,

    I'd say Bradys first 5 seasons were more impressive since he didn't have a Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce

    Brady has literally had 2 HOF Careers rolled into 1

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As they say, hindsight is 20/20.

    The knock on Brady in the beginning was that he was a system quarterback. However, looking back on it, we were probably never again going to sniff a SB with Bledsoe. Brady was the system.

    Mahomes obviously started his career on a team that was more primed for success.

    The success injection that Brady brought is unparalleled.

  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,126 ✭✭✭✭✭

    i'll be the first to admit that i was very wrong about the Chiefs this season. i said it's foolish to think that you can ascend after subtracting the cheetah. what i failed to consider, however, is Pat elevating his game.......and in turn elevating his team. middle-of-the-pack D, no true #1 wideout, yet here he is getting sized up for another ring. you do stuff like that and your career starts trending in a direction that few do. actually what he pulled off this season is very reminiscent of the lean Brady years when he reached the pinnacle with a stud TE and complementary weapons elsewhere.

  • spacehaydukespacehayduke Posts: 5,468 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @erikthredd said:
    I bet if you asked each QB which start would he prefer, Great passing stats w/2-1 in the SB or Good passing stats w/3-0 in the SB I'd love to hear their answer. 😎

    Another thing to factor in,KC traded up to draft Mahomes then he was groomed to be the starter one year later while the front office built the offense around him in his first few seasons.

    In Brady's case,he went from the 6th round to becoming 4th string QB during his rookie year. then as the #3QB in year 2 Belichick threw him out there after Bledsoe got hurt, the rest is history. Bill certainly didn't build around Brady those early years leaving Tom to work with who he had. Finally in 2007 BB actually got Brady some ProBowl level talent on offense.

    Er, ah, let's see, your icon has a Boston Bruins B and a Pat Hat. No bias for the Beantown qb here........ Me? I have no home town qb in the field we are discussing. Just my observation of talent and achievement this far into a career. Mahomes is better than Brady this far in, no question about it. And, alot more likeable than Brady the stiffie who sacrificed his family for one more year of mediocrity at the end of his career. What is not to like, LOL?


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  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,179 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @spacehayduke said:

    @erikthredd said:
    I bet if you asked each QB which start would he prefer, Great passing stats w/2-1 in the SB or Good passing stats w/3-0 in the SB I'd love to hear their answer. 😎

    Another thing to factor in,KC traded up to draft Mahomes then he was groomed to be the starter one year later while the front office built the offense around him in his first few seasons.

    In Brady's case,he went from the 6th round to becoming 4th string QB during his rookie year. then as the #3QB in year 2 Belichick threw him out there after Bledsoe got hurt, the rest is history. Bill certainly didn't build around Brady those early years leaving Tom to work with who he had. Finally in 2007 BB actually got Brady some ProBowl level talent on offense.

    Er, ah, let's see, your icon has a Boston Bruins B and a Pat Hat. No bias for the Beantown qb here........ Me? I have no home town qb in the field we are discussing. Just my observation of talent and achievement this far into a career. Mahomes is better than Brady this far in, no question about it. And, alot more likeable than Brady the stiffie who sacrificed his family for one more year of mediocrity at the end of his career. What is not to like, LOL?

    Maybe you should read all of the comments before calling someone out on one. This was from my only other comment in this thread...
    This is a hot topic today on local sports talk radio here in New England. I think having this conversation is way too early to compare Brady's long career to what Mahomes has done to date in his. Like Darin says above,its better to compare how each started their career over their first 5-6 seasons because that would make more sense. A case can be made that no QB has had a better first 6 seasons in the NFL than Mahomes.

    You're right, I sound so biased there. 😂🤣😂🤣😂

  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,126 ✭✭✭✭✭

    i don't get why personal stuff has to be injected into the equation. if this was a perfection contest and we knew everything about everyone, there would be no one left standing and we'd be reduced to talking about A-rodg trying to gouge his eyeballs out on day 3 of self-imposed, self-retarded solitary confinement

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @galaxy27 said:
    i don't get why personal stuff has to be injected into the equation. if this was a perfection contest and we knew everything about everyone, there would be no one left standing and we'd be reduced to talking about A-rodg trying to gouge his eyeballs out on day 3 of self-imposed, self-retarded solitary confinement

    .........
    I learned long ago that I cannot use personal traits as qualifiers when determining sports greatness. I do, however, sometimes use them when determining who I root for on an individual basis. Not always though. I guess it's complicated. The bottom line is that I don't look for heroes in the realm of sports. There are things about Brady I admire, and things he believes and does that I wish he didn't.

  • MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,884 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Cue all the Lebron hate.

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Maywood said:
    Cue all the Lebron hate.

    ...
    Like I said, I sometimes do use personal traits to choose who to individually root for. But LeBron being knocked out of GOAT status or even the top ten by me isn't about anything other than his game.

    It's ok to discuss an athlete's life, but it doesn't have value when determining their abilities on the field. Although there is some overlap when it comes to things like what kind of teammate they are and how they carry themselves. Brady catches a lot of flak for his off-field stuff. I tout him all the time as greatest. I have real problems with some of his off field behavior and personal characteristics (and it's not the most obvious stuff). Brady seems to motivate and inspire teammates.

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