@streeter said:
I might be a little cynical/jaded here but after walking the last Long Beach I attended, I came away with the opinion that several dealers were starting a museum. Only CAC coins at 20%+ over priced. Maybe they were being sold, maybe not. If it's a $2,500 coin then that is what it is. I'm not interested in paying $3,000-3,500 because of the bean.
My guess is some collectors need the bean and dealers will happily accommodate them.
Is it possible that some coins with CAC stickers for sale at those dealers tables you mention had higher prices because those coins were nicer (perhaps “A” coins with stickers vs “C” coins without stickers), or in the case of gold coins, those coins at other dealers tables whose gold coins didn’t merit CAC stickers had surface issues that in the opinion of CAC were problematic, but are OK with PCGS and NGC? So MAYBE it’s the coins themselves that determine pricing differentials, and the stickers are sometimes just identifying nicer coins????
While no doubt you won’t buy coins with higher prices that might be high end for the grade, is it possible there are collectors who pass by booths on the bourse that offer coins at lower prices since they are lower end for the grade? I know I pass those booths by!
Is it possible that coins are not all “commodities” , where every coin in a particular date and grade are not identical, and some may indeed merit a price higher than other coins in that same date and grade? Using your example, if “C” coins are selling for $2,500, is it possible there are “A” coins in that date and grade where collectors would not be silly paying $3,000 for that nicer coin?
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@streeter said:
I might be a little cynical/jaded here but after walking the last Long Beach I attended, I came away with the opinion that several dealers were starting a museum. Only CAC coins at 20%+ over priced. Maybe they were being sold, maybe not. If it's a $2,500 coin then that is what it is. I'm not interested in paying $3,000-3,500 because of the bean.
My guess is some collectors need the bean and dealers will happily accommodate them.
Is it possible that some coins with CAC stickers for sale at those dealers tables you mention had higher prices because those coins were nicer (perhaps “A” coins with stickers vs “C” coins without stickers), or in the case of gold coins, those coins at other dealers tables whose gold coins didn’t merit CAC stickers had surface issues that in the opinion of CAC were problematic, but are OK with PCGS and NGC? So MAYBE it’s the coins themselves that determine pricing differentials, and the stickers are sometimes just identifying nicer coins????
While no doubt you won’t buy coins with higher prices that might be high end for the grade, is it possible there are collectors who pass by booths on the bourse that offer coins at lower prices since they are lower end for the grade? I know I pass those booths by!
Is it possible that coins are not all “commodities” , where every coin in a particular date and grade are not identical, and some may indeed merit a price higher than other coins in that same date and grade? Using your example, if “C” coins are selling for $2,500, is it possible there are “A” coins in that date and grade where collectors would not be silly paying $3,000 for that nicer coin?
Steve
I think Steve raises some good points, and a strong defense for not only the CAC argument but for PCGS vs. NGC. Ultimately the coin must determine the value, and I think a lot of people put WAY too much emphasis on the plastic leading the price rather than the coin.
For example, if there is a correlation between higher prices and the plastic a coin is in, collectors automatically jump to the conclusion that the coins are higher priced BECAUSE of the plastic. Very few I think actually check to see if the coins bringing higher prices are higher quality.
Every time I check, it seems the higher the quality = the higher the price. I rarely see an example where a coin sells for crazy money if the coin is not nice (rare holders excluded).
@winesteven does make some solid points. Coins are not just a share of stock like every other share, each will find its place and price. In the past before CAC PQ coins still brought higher selling prices most of the time, the CAC bean just helps those who value the opinion of JA quickly identify those coins they might be interested in quickly.
Are there dealers that are using the CAC bean to pad profits, I imagine there are some, but is that really any different than those dealers that are now using toning (any and all toing is rainbow toned) to pad profits. There have always been overpriced coins in the market, it is up to the buyers to decide where they draw the line. From what I see in recent auctions and what I read about shows from the show reports here, buyers are still hungry even at these prices.
Until collectors slow down and pump the brakes there is no reason for dealers not to keep pushing the prices higher. I like CAC and what it brings to the table, but unless the coin has to sing and dance on its own merits not just because it has a bean.
@streeter said:
I might be a little cynical/jaded here but after walking the last Long Beach I attended, I came away with the opinion that several dealers were starting a museum. Only CAC coins at 20%+ over priced. Maybe they were being sold, maybe not. If it's a $2,500 coin then that is what it is. I'm not interested in paying $3,000-3,500 because of the bean.
My guess is some collectors need the bean and dealers will happily accommodate them.
Is it possible that some coins with CAC stickers for sale at those dealers tables you mention had higher prices because those coins were nicer (perhaps “A” coins with stickers vs “C” coins without stickers), or in the case of gold coins, those coins at other dealers tables whose gold coins didn’t merit CAC stickers had surface issues that in the opinion of CAC were problematic, but are OK with PCGS and NGC? So MAYBE it’s the coins themselves that determine pricing differentials, and the stickers are sometimes just identifying nicer coins????
While no doubt you won’t buy coins with higher prices that might be high end for the grade, is it possible there are collectors who pass by booths on the bourse that offer coins at lower prices since they are lower end for the grade? I know I pass those booths by!
Is it possible that coins are not all “commodities” , where every coin in a particular date and grade are not identical, and some may indeed merit a price higher than other coins in that same date and grade? Using your example, if “C” coins are selling for $2,500, is it possible there are “A” coins in that date and grade where collectors would not be silly paying $3,000 for that nicer coin?
Steve
I think Steve raises some good points, and a strong defense for not only the CAC argument but for PCGS vs. NGC. Ultimately the coin must determine the value, and I think a lot of people put WAY too much emphasis on the plastic leading the price rather than the coin.
For example, if there is a correlation between higher prices and the plastic a coin is in, collectors automatically jump to the conclusion that the coins are higher priced BECAUSE of the plastic. Very few I think actually check to see if the coins bringing higher prices are higher quality.
Every time I check, it seems the higher the quality = the higher the price. I rarely see an example where a coin sells for crazy money if the coin is not nice (rare holders excluded).
I won’t deny that some dealers like to price higher and let their inventory sit a little longer, and if it suits their business, good for them. A lot of times when the CAC is mentioned in the same breath as highprices in a negative way, without taking into consideration the quality of coins as you and Steve both pointed out.
Some dealers have more overhead than others, and pay more to acquire the coins in inventory. In my opinion, it’s difficult to offer really nice inventory all the time and the dealers that do so charge accordingly. You will see some dealers list new purchases on their website, and 50% of them get sold that day. Other times there may just be a handful of coins that linger for a few months before the right buyer comes along. I pay strong prices for a quite a few of my coins but each purchase has to be evaluated on its own. I try not to make generalizations about a dealer or write them off as overpriced, or I might miss out on the white whale that I would have been happy to overpay for.
@streeter said:
I might be a little cynical/jaded here but after walking the last Long Beach I attended, I came away with the opinion that several dealers were starting a museum. Only CAC coins at 20%+ over priced. Maybe they were being sold, maybe not. If it's a $2,500 coin then that is what it is. I'm not interested in paying $3,000-3,500 because of the bean.
My guess is some collectors need the bean and dealers will happily accommodate them.
Did you also price a good number of their non-CAC coins? My experience has been that some dealers typically price many or most of their coins reasonably, while others typically price most of them at unreasonable levels. And that's whether the overall market is good or bad. So I wouldn't automatically assume that the seemingly high asking prices were due solely to the CAC stickers.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
My thoughts exactly @winesteven
So many focus on "CAC coins are over priced because of the sticker". No, they have a sticker because they are high end coins, and those warrant higher prices. Last night I posted something similar in another thread. We see collecting coins much the same.
I see a lot of ugly coins sell at auction. Ones I would never bid on. There is no way I can then use the prices they realize to try and set a price for an "A" coin in the same grade. Others can, and best of luck to you.
@streeter said:
I might be a little cynical/jaded here but after walking the last Long Beach I attended, I came away with the opinion that several dealers were starting a museum. Only CAC coins at 20%+ over priced. Maybe they were being sold, maybe not. If it's a $2,500 coin then that is what it is. I'm not interested in paying $3,000-3,500 because of the bean.
My guess is some collectors need the bean and dealers will happily accommodate them.
When we are talking about CAC coins and what a coin is worth. I keep asking myself, "How do we know what a coin is worth?" Are we ignoring the CAC price guide and basing it solely on other price guides? Or are we factoring in all data?
@streeter said:
I might be a little cynical/jaded here but after walking the last Long Beach I attended, I came away with the opinion that several dealers were starting a museum. Only CAC coins at 20%+ over priced. Maybe they were being sold, maybe not. If it's a $2,500 coin then that is what it is. I'm not interested in paying $3,000-3,500 because of the bean.
My guess is some collectors need the bean and dealers will happily accommodate them.
When we are talking about CAC coins and what a coin is worth. I keep asking myself, "How do we know what a coin is worth?" Are we ignoring the CAC price guide and basing it solely on other price guides? Or are we factoring in all data?
I'm only speaking for myself, but when I'm trying to put a value on a coin, the price guide, whichever price guide were talking about, has little influence on my decision. Of course there are times where a scarce coin has no recent comps and price guide is all you have, but I like to use the PCGS database and compare all the CAC sales for the past 5 years. Sometimes ill go back even further before CAC was prominent and still compare the A coins to the C coins.
I’d rather have a completely original CAC approved XF45 than a barely market acceptable AU55. An AU55 that might not even straight grade if cracked out and resubmitted.
Hypothetical Example:
If the price guide is $800 for XF45 and $1,000 for AU55, I don’t find it unreasonable to pay $900 for the CAC XF45 coin I want whereas I wouldn’t pay even $800 for the AU55.
If another collector walked by, they might think the XF45 at $900 is ripoff and the AU55 priced under guide at $800 is a ‘deal’. It’s a matter of perspective and preference.
You see this dynamic at some of the dealers - you can easily find, for example, a group of three 1921 Peace dollars in MS63 with different prices on each from the same dealer.
@FlyingAl said:
... Gold means they think it's under graded by at least a point (they see it as solid at the next grade up).
I thought it meant it would bump but not always green at the next grade.
Gold means that they would sticker the coin in the next grade up. When CACG opens up, a ms64 gold CAC can automatically cross as a 65. Probably not be a great idea though.
I've been ready all of these posts. What an education. I didn't really expect this. It really does bring me up to speed with things.
This is what I have come away with and I don't know any of these people involved so I have nothing good or bad to say for me it's all about the coins.
How can a 64 from the predominant grading companies we all respect have an A,B or C 64 grade and up?
We already have a + right?
This would be a good discussion not based on the grading companies themselves but how a coin would find itself in a holder as an A,B or C.
I'm not suggesting grading companies have done something nefarious because I don't think they do. Human error maybe and on a rare occasion
I could see where a 63 and below gets sketchy.
I thought of something interesting and I hope this doesn't create any problems because if it does I'm not posting my thoughts anymore.
When CAC opens up as a TPG and I think that will be a good thing because I have been studying. I have OCD, I really do. Who is going to put a green or golden star on the holders?
@Watchtower said:
I've been ready all of these posts. What an education. I didn't really expect this. It really does bring me up to speed with things.
This is what I have come away with and I don't know any of these people involved so I have nothing good or bad to say for me it's all about the coins.
How can a 64 from the predominant grading companies we all respect have an A,B or C 64 grade and up?
We already have a + right?
This would be a good discussion not based on the grading companies themselves but how a coin would find itself in a holder as an A,B or C.
I'm not suggesting grading companies have done something nefarious because I don't think they do. Human error maybe and on a rare occasion
I could see where a 63 and below gets sketchy.
I thought of something interesting and I hope this doesn't create any problems because if it does I'm not posting my thoughts anymore.
When CAC opens up as a TPG and I think that will be a good thing because I have been studying. I have OCD, I really do. Who is going to put a green or golden star on the holders?
How can a 64 from the predominant grading companies we all respect have an A,B or C 64 grade and up?
Coins are already parsed into pools within their assigned grade by astute dealers and collectors and this has been going on for decades. Individuals or companies might not use A, B and C for separating coins within a grade, but you better believe those folks with good grading skills are always assigning a finer grade to a coin than the integer grades we have now at the TPGs. It makes for grading arbitrage and, when done with education and skill, can lead to very large returns.
Regardless, in the early days of the TPGs the idea of splitting grades, or aspects of a grade, up into A, B and C was used and the information was sometimes included on the insert within the slab. This is not a new idea, but you are relatively new to numismatics so it might appear wildly radical. Lastly, grading is not a digital activity, but rather an analog one and this will yield a distribution curve of data points (individual coin grades) within any grade range. When you have seen thousands upon thousands of the same coin in-hand you will get a better feel for how different one coin is vs. another even if they are the same grade.
How can a 64 from the predominant grading companies we all respect have an A,B or C 64 grade and up?
Assuming a coin will be straight graded and there are no issues or problems, when CAC starts grading an "A" coin would be a 64+. A "B" coin would be a 64. A "C" coin would drop down to a 63+. A rude awaking for current owners and delightful for buyers wanting a PLUS coin. Eliminates the concern of having an overgraded coin.
The coming adjustments in price guides should be interesting!
Same coins e.g. date, denomination PCGS grade and type. 1 is a cac, one is not. Vote on which one is the CAC coin. Mind you same grade and this is a rare coin My point is this CAC means something, you get the advice of the best coin dealers on the plant with the sticker
Gold coins
Both have a nice reverse but something doesn't look right with the top one and the bottom one has a pretty good rash.
I'm not knocking the coins.
I think they grade a 62.
I don't collect gold coins but I do see a couple in my future.
Who doesn't like a double eagle?
So if I needed to guess I would say bottom coin looks right for the grade.
How'd I do?
@Clackamas1 said:
Same coins e.g. date, denomination, PCGS grade and type. One of these merits a CAC sticker, the other does not. Vote on which one is the CAC coin. Mind you, both are the same grade and this is a rare coin My point is CAC means something, you get the advice of the best coin graders on the plant with the sticker
Perfect example, which is very clear even to inexperienced collectors! Thanks for sharing!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@streeter said:
I might be a little cynical/jaded here but after walking the last Long Beach I attended, I came away with the opinion that several dealers were starting a museum. Only CAC coins at 20%+ over priced. Maybe they were being sold, maybe not. If it's a $2,500 coin then that is what it is. I'm not interested in paying $3,000-3,500 because of the bean.
My guess is some collectors need the bean and dealers will happily accommodate them.
Does anyone else remember CAC ads saying that their sticker doesn't add value?
Does anyone else remember CAC ads saying that their sticker doesn't add value?
The point they made in those ads (and those ads still run) is that the stickers are not the CAUSE of the added value - the added value is there due to the coins themselves!!!!!!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@MasonG said:
That wouldn't make any more sense than saying getting a coin slabbed doesn't add value. What's the point of doing so otherwise?
Sorry @winesteven I too have never understood their claim when the market says otherwise. Whether CAC wishes to ignore this reality, the sticker brings more money compared to one without it. The packaging (and what it represents) makes a difference
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I hear you both. Their point is that the sticker is identifying coins that in their opinion are solid for the grade, and don't have surface issues that CAC deems problematic, but are acceptable by the TPG's. So while many collectors will pay more due to the sticker identifying those "nicer" coins, CAC says (and I understand it) that coins that are solid for the grade and don't have those surface issues should sell for more than coins that might be "C" coins, or have those surface issues.
Don't you each agree that even when comparing two unstickered coins, a collector with good grading skills will often be willing to pay more for a coin at the mid or high end for the grade compared to one at the lower end, or for a gold coin straight graded that might have been puttied? The point is that nicer coins often sell for more than coins in the same grade that aren't as nice for the reasons I mentioned. Same for coins with CAC stickers. In theory, those coins are nicer than unstickered coins that have failed on their attempt to get a sticker. So it's the coin itself that merits the higher cost, not the sticker.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
Primarily I seek 20th century silver and gold in seasoned holders. I learned to grade by this method,
65.0, 65.2, 65.4, 65.6, 65.8.
It's not a problem determining which is the right coin.
OTOH, if you are dealing with coins that can be a problem like older copper or 19th century type....CAC is invaluable. And you pay the price.
@MasonG said:
This question was asked in another thread:
"You only buy CAC. A coin is reholdered was CAC now no bean but can be confirmed on CAC website. Would you still buy it ?"
Some posters said no.
edited to add... CAC can certainly explain how they see their service working but they can't stop the market from using it in other ways.
I understand, and don't disagree. While the coin speaks for itself, there's no doubt that when the time comes to sell, whether by me or my heirs, I want that sticker. A BIG reason for that is that some buyers (like me) set filters to ONLY look at coins with stickers. As such, I would not want to have my coin get sold without the sticker since that will exclude potential buyers.
I fully agree with you that there are PLENTY of buyers who will buy coins solely for the sticker. But as you say, it sounds like we both understand what CAC is saying.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@MasonG said:
This question was asked in another thread:
"You only buy CAC. A coin is reholdered was CAC now no bean but can be confirmed on CAC website. Would you still buy it ?"
Some posters said no.
edited to add... CAC can certainly explain how they see their service working but they can't stop the market from using it in other ways.
I understand, and don't disagree. While the coin speaks for itself, there's no doubt that when the time comes to sell, whether by me or my heirs, I want that sticker. A BIG reason for that is that some buyers (like me) set filters to ONLY look at coins with stickers. As such, I would not want to have my coin get sold without the sticker since that will exclude potential buyers.
I fully agree with you that there are PLENTY of buyers who will buy coins solely for the sticker. But as you say, it sounds like we both understand what CAC is saying.
Steve
Agree 100%, and I share the same mentality that the sticker is merely an indicator/filter for me that the coin is worth consideration and I will take a closer look to see if I like it, I'm not paying for the actual sticker itself, but when it comes time to sell the sticker needs to be there to maximize value. When shopping on the internet, there is simply too many coins to look through, and I can hunt more efficiently just by searching CAC listings only. The other thread doesn't really tell me anything as there was no context given to the situation and everyone's answers are different based on the type of coins they collect and how inconvenient it would be for them to get the coin re-stickered.
I’m slightly off topic but I would recommend going to as many large shows with auctions as possible and spend a lot of time lot viewing. Obviously there are exceptions and sometimes I’m scratching my head when I see a coin with a sticker but in general CAC coins look better than non CAC coins and PCGS coins in the same grade look better than NGC coins.
The market ultimately decides the value of a CAC coin just like the market values a PCGS and NGC coin in the same grade. If nobody was willing to pay a premium for a sticker CAC would probably go out of business.
@winesteven said:
I understand, and don't disagree. While the coin speaks for itself...
Here's the thing- the coin doesn't speak for itself for everybody. If the ability to reliably identify A, B and C coins was universal, CAC wouldn't exist. That ability, however, isn't one that everybody has. For those who don't have it, the sticker (or, more clearly, the opinion that the sticker represents) does add value.
@skier07 said:
I’m slightly off topic but I would recommend going to as many large shows with auctions as possible and spend a lot of time lot viewing. Obviously there are exceptions and sometimes I’m scratching my head when I see a coin with a sticker but in general CAC coins look better than non CAC coins and PCGS coins in the same grade look better than NGC coins.
What are your observations comparing NGC CAC to PCGS in the same grade? I would think that for the most part the NGC coins should have better eye appeal.
@skier07 said:
I’m slightly off topic but I would recommend going to as many large shows with auctions as possible and spend a lot of time lot viewing. Obviously there are exceptions and sometimes I’m scratching my head when I see a coin with a sticker but in general CAC coins look better than non CAC coins and PCGS coins in the same grade look better than NGC coins.
What are your observations comparing NGC CAC to PCGS in the same grade? I would think that for the most part the NGC coins should have better eye appeal.
Why should one TPG have coins that look better than the other TPG if they are the same grade and also with a CAC sticker?
@skier07 said:
I’m slightly off topic but I would recommend going to as many large shows with auctions as possible and spend a lot of time lot viewing. Obviously there are exceptions and sometimes I’m scratching my head when I see a coin with a sticker but in general CAC coins look better than non CAC coins and PCGS coins in the same grade look better than NGC coins.
What are your observations comparing NGC CAC to PCGS in the same grade? I would think that for the most part the NGC coins should have better eye appeal.
Why should one TPG have coins that look better than the other TPG if they are the same grade and also with a CAC sticker?
Maybe I wasn't clear. A NGC CAC coin compared to a PCGS coin without CAC. There is also an underlying assumption in my question that the PCGS coin would not CAC. I agree with @skier07 observations. I guess what I'm saying is how does the market evaluate/rank various combinations of plastic and stickers. Is it 1)PCGS CAC 2) PCGS 3)NGC CAC or 1) PCGS CAC 2) NGC CAC 3)PCGS. I would argue that PCGS CAC and NGC CAC coins at the same grade should have equal eye appeal, yet I believe the market still pays more for PCGS CAC over NGC CAC (although don't quote me on that).
@Clackamas1 said:
Same coins e.g. date, denomination, PCGS grade and type. One of these merits a CAC sticker, the other does not. Vote on which one is the CAC coin. Mind you, both are the same grade and this is a rare coin My point is CAC means something, you get the advice of the best coin graders on the plant with the sticker
Perfect example, which is very clear even to inexperienced collectors! Thanks for sharing!
Based on the pics the 1st coin is 63/64. The second 58/62. From your guys comments the 1st must be CAC. Is the 1st coin net graded, or under graded, perhaps with a gold bean?
@skier07 said:
I’m slightly off topic but I would recommend going to as many large shows with auctions as possible and spend a lot of time lot viewing. Obviously there are exceptions and sometimes I’m scratching my head when I see a coin with a sticker but in general CAC coins look better than non CAC coins and PCGS coins in the same grade look better than NGC coins.
What are your observations comparing NGC CAC to PCGS in the same grade? I would think that for the most part the NGC coins should have better eye appeal.
Why should one TPG have coins that look better than the other TPG if they are the same grade and also with a CAC sticker?
Maybe I wasn't clear. A NGC CAC coin compared to a PCGS coin without CAC. There is also an underlying assumption in my question that the PCGS coin would not CAC. I agree with @skier07 observations. I guess what I'm saying is how does the market evaluate/rank various combinations of plastic and stickers. Is it 1)PCGS CAC 2) PCGS 3)NGC CAC or 1) PCGS CAC 2) NGC CAC 3)PCGS. I would argue that PCGS CAC and NGC CAC coins at the same grade should have equal eye appeal, yet I believe the market still pays more for PCGS CAC over NGC CAC (although don't quote me on that).
Personally I’m indifferent to PCGS CAC vs NGC CAC but I think there are some people who either think one is better, have a registry set preference, or who just want every coin in the same holder for aesthetics.
For type set collectors, it is very difficult to build the required expertise to identify A vs B vs C coins in every series. It takes too long and the average collector doesn’t have access to hundreds or thousands of coins to examine in hand to get up to speed. CAC acts as a filter.
Personally I’m indifferent to PCGS CAC vs NGC CAC but I think there are some people who either think one is better, have a registry set preference, or who just want every coin in the same holder for aesthetics.
For type set collectors, it is very difficult to build the required expertise to identify A vs B vs C coins in every series. It takes too long and the average collector doesn’t have access to hundreds or thousands of coins to examine in hand to get up to speed. CAC acts as a filter.
I do prefer the cleaner look of PCGS plastic (my opinion anyway). Although the coin is the star of the show, presentation does matter.
** Personally I’m indifferent to PCGS CAC vs NGC CAC **
As well you should be because there is no difference. If a coin will CAC at 65 in NGC it will cross and CAC at 65 to PCGS. I have done it dozens of times.
** Personally I’m indifferent to PCGS CAC vs NGC CAC **
As well you should be because there is no difference. If a coin will CAC at 65 in NGC it will cross and CAC at 65 to PCGS. I have done it dozens of times.
Not always, I’m sure you have a better chance at crossing a coin that was CAC approved but even with CAC some NGC coins do not cross to pcgs at the same grade.
To drive the point home, IF you have two identical coins (condition and eye appeal) in the same grade, one graded by NGC, and the other by PCGS, both with CAC stickers, they SHOULD be treated the same as each other regarding pricing and demand. However, the reality is they are not. "The Market" will tend to value the identical coin graded by PCGS higher.
Based on the above, I suspect many collectors with NGC coins with CAC stickers will look to cross to the new CACG holders at that grade. Separately, I initially thought that would also result in a LOT of new plus graded coins at CACG due to those NGC CAC stickered coins getting crossed that are "A" coins. JA has estimated that roughly about 25% of CAC stickered coins are "A" coins. But a very knowledgeable person pointed out to me that many of the NGC CAC stickered coins that are "A" coins are likely to have already crossed to PCGS, so what's left of NGC CAC stickered coins that are "A" coins may indeed be less than 25%. I agree with that point he made!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@winesteven said:
To drive the point home, IF you have two identical coins (condition and eye appeal) in the same grade, one graded by NGC, and the other by PCGS, both with CAC stickers, they SHOULD be treated the same as each other regarding pricing and demand. However, the reality is they are not. "The Market" will tend to value the identical coin graded by PCGS higher.
(snip)
Steve
And if one looks at the Greysheet app, Steve's point is validated by value distinctions often shown between the two services (with CAC certification and without).
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@Clackamas1 said:
Same coins e.g. date, denomination, PCGS grade and type. One of these merits a CAC sticker, the other does not. Vote on which one is the CAC coin. Mind you, both are the same grade and this is a rare coin My point is CAC means something, you get the advice of the best coin graders on the plant with the sticker
Perfect example, which is very clear even to inexperienced collectors! Thanks for sharing!
Based on the pics the 1st coin is 63/64. The second 58/62. From your guys comments the 1st must be CAC. Is the 1st coin net graded, or under graded, perhaps with a gold bean?
Actually, I disagree, in that I do think it is indeed a perfect example. His point is made since PCGS graded each coin the same grade as each other. CAC felt one of those two coins was solid for the grade, and the other one wasn’t! Is there anyone here that can’t determine which one of those two coins CAC deemed merited their sticker? By the way, the poster of that reply only mentioned a CAC sticker, so I must assume it was green and not gold.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
Gold sticker - they feel it has potential to upgrade.
At recent show guy tried get 65 money on 64 CAC gold sticker DE coin (grade on holder) offering coin to dealer setup next to me. Dealer said “take it up with the TPG (send it in) Bullwinkle. Me no dinero above 64 grade on holder (laughing).”
Green Sticker means solid for the grade - use CAC CPG as value. A gold sticker - send it in for upgrade.
@Cougar1978 said:
Gold sticker - they feel it has potential to upgrade.
At recent show guy tried get 65 money on 64 gold sticker DE coin (grade on holder) offering coin to dealer setup next to me. Dealer said “take it up with the TPG (send it in) Bullwinkle. Me no dinero above 64 grade on holder (laughing).”
Green Sticker means solid for the grade - use CAC CPG as value.
Gold is only “potential” to upgrade at PCGS, but if you were to crack out and send in raw I feel think you’d be successful most of the time. The market doesn’t really treat it as a “potential”, technically it’s treated as at least 1 grade up and can cross automatically at the next grade up once CACG accepts submissions. Since they’re given out so sparingly, the collectible value alone can cause a coin to trade for the same price that it would 2-3 grades up or more in some cases.
While I don’t know the specifics of the experience with the dealer at the coin show, I would bet a large sum that the dealer made a poor financial decision if he didn’t want to pay normal 65 money for 64 gold cac DE.
Potential and “the market” are 2 speculative things or for that matter conjecture. Before the 89 crash “the market” and its potential to go up were terms used. It crashed. Reality can be mean. Many players went bankrupt or CC debt default.
Yes if send gold sticker coin in it may have “potential” go higher than just one grade too. But conjecture does not cut it on the bourse. And yes there are people who will pay thru nose for gold sticker coins bid them up real high. However I would not call them “the market” lol. If JA will pay a grade up or more for gold sticker - send it to him.
One needs to know the right venue for certain coins. Cougar and his ilk are greysheet dealers. A gold stickered coin should be consigned or sold to dealers like Paradime that deals in these types of coins or to be sold at auction to access those collectors who value/collect the gold designation. That's also the reality and it can be generous.
BTW - A gold sticker represents, in CAC's opinion, at least a 1.5 point upgrade (assuming MS coins) in that it will green sticker at the next level. The .5 is reflective of a coin being a B or better coin.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@Cougar1978 said:
Potential and “the market” are 2 speculative things or for that matter conjecture. Before the 89 crash “the market” and its potential to go up were terms used. It crashed. Reality can be mean.
Yes if send gold sticker coin in it may have “potential” go higher than just one grade too. But conjecture does not cut it on the bourse. And yes there are people who will pay thru nose for gold sticker coins bid them up real high. However I would not call them “the market.”
The current market is the reality, we’re not just talking about greed driven speculation in the 80’s market bubble. While the market has its ups and downs as a whole, CAC is a trusted and recognized brand that that people pay a premium for. JA is very strict with gold, and if he gives out a gold bean it means he would sticker the coin green if it were housed in the next grade. There’s not that many gold stickered $20 Libs. They will automatically upgrade the coin into their holder.
You’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but if you ever want to sell a gold cac ms64 double eagle, please call me and I will gladly take it off your hands for 65 money.
Yes your entitled to your opinion too. I simply run a business, not a democracy. However “their holder” CACG is not on the bourse yet is it? What about the CAC gold stickered coin that goes bad in the holder. However if he does all these wonderful things send it to him.
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Is it possible that some coins with CAC stickers for sale at those dealers tables you mention had higher prices because those coins were nicer (perhaps “A” coins with stickers vs “C” coins without stickers), or in the case of gold coins, those coins at other dealers tables whose gold coins didn’t merit CAC stickers had surface issues that in the opinion of CAC were problematic, but are OK with PCGS and NGC? So MAYBE it’s the coins themselves that determine pricing differentials, and the stickers are sometimes just identifying nicer coins????
While no doubt you won’t buy coins with higher prices that might be high end for the grade, is it possible there are collectors who pass by booths on the bourse that offer coins at lower prices since they are lower end for the grade? I know I pass those booths by!
Is it possible that coins are not all “commodities” , where every coin in a particular date and grade are not identical, and some may indeed merit a price higher than other coins in that same date and grade? Using your example, if “C” coins are selling for $2,500, is it possible there are “A” coins in that date and grade where collectors would not be silly paying $3,000 for that nicer coin?
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I think Steve raises some good points, and a strong defense for not only the CAC argument but for PCGS vs. NGC. Ultimately the coin must determine the value, and I think a lot of people put WAY too much emphasis on the plastic leading the price rather than the coin.
For example, if there is a correlation between higher prices and the plastic a coin is in, collectors automatically jump to the conclusion that the coins are higher priced BECAUSE of the plastic. Very few I think actually check to see if the coins bringing higher prices are higher quality.
Every time I check, it seems the higher the quality = the higher the price. I rarely see an example where a coin sells for crazy money if the coin is not nice (rare holders excluded).
Coin Photographer.
@winesteven does make some solid points. Coins are not just a share of stock like every other share, each will find its place and price. In the past before CAC PQ coins still brought higher selling prices most of the time, the CAC bean just helps those who value the opinion of JA quickly identify those coins they might be interested in quickly.
Are there dealers that are using the CAC bean to pad profits, I imagine there are some, but is that really any different than those dealers that are now using toning (any and all toing is rainbow toned) to pad profits. There have always been overpriced coins in the market, it is up to the buyers to decide where they draw the line. From what I see in recent auctions and what I read about shows from the show reports here, buyers are still hungry even at these prices.
Until collectors slow down and pump the brakes there is no reason for dealers not to keep pushing the prices higher. I like CAC and what it brings to the table, but unless the coin has to sing and dance on its own merits not just because it has a bean.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I won’t deny that some dealers like to price higher and let their inventory sit a little longer, and if it suits their business, good for them. A lot of times when the CAC is mentioned in the same breath as high prices in a negative way, without taking into consideration the quality of coins as you and Steve both pointed out.
Some dealers have more overhead than others, and pay more to acquire the coins in inventory. In my opinion, it’s difficult to offer really nice inventory all the time and the dealers that do so charge accordingly. You will see some dealers list new purchases on their website, and 50% of them get sold that day. Other times there may just be a handful of coins that linger for a few months before the right buyer comes along. I pay strong prices for a quite a few of my coins but each purchase has to be evaluated on its own. I try not to make generalizations about a dealer or write them off as overpriced, or I might miss out on the white whale that I would have been happy to overpay for.
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Did you also price a good number of their non-CAC coins? My experience has been that some dealers typically price many or most of their coins reasonably, while others typically price most of them at unreasonable levels. And that's whether the overall market is good or bad. So I wouldn't automatically assume that the seemingly high asking prices were due solely to the CAC stickers.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
My thoughts exactly @winesteven
So many focus on "CAC coins are over priced because of the sticker". No, they have a sticker because they are high end coins, and those warrant higher prices. Last night I posted something similar in another thread. We see collecting coins much the same.
I see a lot of ugly coins sell at auction. Ones I would never bid on. There is no way I can then use the prices they realize to try and set a price for an "A" coin in the same grade. Others can, and best of luck to you.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
When we are talking about CAC coins and what a coin is worth. I keep asking myself, "How do we know what a coin is worth?" Are we ignoring the CAC price guide and basing it solely on other price guides? Or are we factoring in all data?
I'm only speaking for myself, but when I'm trying to put a value on a coin, the price guide, whichever price guide were talking about, has little influence on my decision. Of course there are times where a scarce coin has no recent comps and price guide is all you have, but I like to use the PCGS database and compare all the CAC sales for the past 5 years. Sometimes ill go back even further before CAC was prominent and still compare the A coins to the C coins.
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I’d rather have a completely original CAC approved XF45 than a barely market acceptable AU55. An AU55 that might not even straight grade if cracked out and resubmitted.
Hypothetical Example:
If the price guide is $800 for XF45 and $1,000 for AU55, I don’t find it unreasonable to pay $900 for the CAC XF45 coin I want whereas I wouldn’t pay even $800 for the AU55.
If another collector walked by, they might think the XF45 at $900 is ripoff and the AU55 priced under guide at $800 is a ‘deal’. It’s a matter of perspective and preference.
You see this dynamic at some of the dealers - you can easily find, for example, a group of three 1921 Peace dollars in MS63 with different prices on each from the same dealer.
I thought it meant it would bump but not always green at the next grade.
Gold means that they would sticker the coin in the next grade up. When CACG opens up, a ms64 gold CAC can automatically cross as a 65. Probably not be a great idea though.
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I've been ready all of these posts. What an education. I didn't really expect this. It really does bring me up to speed with things.
This is what I have come away with and I don't know any of these people involved so I have nothing good or bad to say for me it's all about the coins.
How can a 64 from the predominant grading companies we all respect have an A,B or C 64 grade and up?
We already have a + right?
This would be a good discussion not based on the grading companies themselves but how a coin would find itself in a holder as an A,B or C.
I'm not suggesting grading companies have done something nefarious because I don't think they do. Human error maybe and on a rare occasion
I could see where a 63 and below gets sketchy.
I thought of something interesting and I hope this doesn't create any problems because if it does I'm not posting my thoughts anymore.
When CAC opens up as a TPG and I think that will be a good thing because I have been studying. I have OCD, I really do. Who is going to put a green or golden star on the holders?
Great discussion and good read. Actually it's ironic for me that coin collecting is much like the classic car arena.
USAF (Ret.) 1985 - 2005. E-4B Aircraft Maintenance Crew Chief and Contracting Officer.
My current Registry sets:
✓ Everyman Mint State Carson City Morgan Dollars (1878 – 1893)
✓ Everyman Mint State Lincoln Cents (1909 – 1958)
✓ Morgan Dollar GSA Hoard (1878 – 1891)
Probably not be a great idea though.
Please explain - not being a dick I just do not understand.
Coins with gold CAC stickers are in short supply and sell for 2-3 grades higher sometimes.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
Coins have value.
Plastic has value.
Stickers have value.
Various combinations of the above exist, and are valued differently by different buyers.
How can a 64 from the predominant grading companies we all respect have an A,B or C 64 grade and up?
Coins are already parsed into pools within their assigned grade by astute dealers and collectors and this has been going on for decades. Individuals or companies might not use A, B and C for separating coins within a grade, but you better believe those folks with good grading skills are always assigning a finer grade to a coin than the integer grades we have now at the TPGs. It makes for grading arbitrage and, when done with education and skill, can lead to very large returns.
Regardless, in the early days of the TPGs the idea of splitting grades, or aspects of a grade, up into A, B and C was used and the information was sometimes included on the insert within the slab. This is not a new idea, but you are relatively new to numismatics so it might appear wildly radical. Lastly, grading is not a digital activity, but rather an analog one and this will yield a distribution curve of data points (individual coin grades) within any grade range. When you have seen thousands upon thousands of the same coin in-hand you will get a better feel for how different one coin is vs. another even if they are the same grade.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Assuming a coin will be straight graded and there are no issues or problems, when CAC starts grading an "A" coin would be a 64+. A "B" coin would be a 64. A "C" coin would drop down to a 63+. A rude awaking for current owners and delightful for buyers wanting a PLUS coin. Eliminates the concern of having an overgraded coin.
The coming adjustments in price guides should be interesting!
Same coins e.g. date, denomination PCGS grade and type. 1 is a cac, one is not. Vote on which one is the CAC coin. Mind you same grade and this is a rare coin My point is this CAC means something, you get the advice of the best coin dealers on the plant with the sticker
Gold coins
Both have a nice reverse but something doesn't look right with the top one and the bottom one has a pretty good rash.
I'm not knocking the coins.
I think they grade a 62.
I don't collect gold coins but I do see a couple in my future.
Who doesn't like a double eagle?
So if I needed to guess I would say bottom coin looks right for the grade.
How'd I do?
Perfect example, which is very clear even to inexperienced collectors! Thanks for sharing!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Does anyone else remember CAC ads saying that their sticker doesn't add value?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
The point they made in those ads (and those ads still run) is that the stickers are not the CAUSE of the added value - the added value is there due to the coins themselves!!!!!!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
That wouldn't make any more sense than saying getting a coin slabbed doesn't add value. What's the point of doing so otherwise?
Sorry @winesteven I too have never understood their claim when the market says otherwise. Whether CAC wishes to ignore this reality, the sticker brings more money compared to one without it. The packaging (and what it represents) makes a difference
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I hear you both. Their point is that the sticker is identifying coins that in their opinion are solid for the grade, and don't have surface issues that CAC deems problematic, but are acceptable by the TPG's. So while many collectors will pay more due to the sticker identifying those "nicer" coins, CAC says (and I understand it) that coins that are solid for the grade and don't have those surface issues should sell for more than coins that might be "C" coins, or have those surface issues.
Don't you each agree that even when comparing two unstickered coins, a collector with good grading skills will often be willing to pay more for a coin at the mid or high end for the grade compared to one at the lower end, or for a gold coin straight graded that might have been puttied? The point is that nicer coins often sell for more than coins in the same grade that aren't as nice for the reasons I mentioned. Same for coins with CAC stickers. In theory, those coins are nicer than unstickered coins that have failed on their attempt to get a sticker. So it's the coin itself that merits the higher cost, not the sticker.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
This question was asked in another thread:
"You only buy CAC. A coin is reholdered was CAC now no bean but can be confirmed on CAC website. Would you still buy it ?"
Some posters said no.
edited to add... CAC can certainly explain how they see their service working but they can't stop the market from using it in other ways.
Primarily I seek 20th century silver and gold in seasoned holders. I learned to grade by this method,
65.0, 65.2, 65.4, 65.6, 65.8.
It's not a problem determining which is the right coin.
OTOH, if you are dealing with coins that can be a problem like older copper or 19th century type....CAC is invaluable. And you pay the price.
I understand, and don't disagree. While the coin speaks for itself, there's no doubt that when the time comes to sell, whether by me or my heirs, I want that sticker. A BIG reason for that is that some buyers (like me) set filters to ONLY look at coins with stickers. As such, I would not want to have my coin get sold without the sticker since that will exclude potential buyers.
I fully agree with you that there are PLENTY of buyers who will buy coins solely for the sticker. But as you say, it sounds like we both understand what CAC is saying.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Agree 100%, and I share the same mentality that the sticker is merely an indicator/filter for me that the coin is worth consideration and I will take a closer look to see if I like it, I'm not paying for the actual sticker itself, but when it comes time to sell the sticker needs to be there to maximize value. When shopping on the internet, there is simply too many coins to look through, and I can hunt more efficiently just by searching CAC listings only. The other thread doesn't really tell me anything as there was no context given to the situation and everyone's answers are different based on the type of coins they collect and how inconvenient it would be for them to get the coin re-stickered.
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I’m slightly off topic but I would recommend going to as many large shows with auctions as possible and spend a lot of time lot viewing. Obviously there are exceptions and sometimes I’m scratching my head when I see a coin with a sticker but in general CAC coins look better than non CAC coins and PCGS coins in the same grade look better than NGC coins.
The market ultimately decides the value of a CAC coin just like the market values a PCGS and NGC coin in the same grade. If nobody was willing to pay a premium for a sticker CAC would probably go out of business.
Here's the thing- the coin doesn't speak for itself for everybody. If the ability to reliably identify A, B and C coins was universal, CAC wouldn't exist. That ability, however, isn't one that everybody has. For those who don't have it, the sticker (or, more clearly, the opinion that the sticker represents) does add value.
What are your observations comparing NGC CAC to PCGS in the same grade? I would think that for the most part the NGC coins should have better eye appeal.
Why should one TPG have coins that look better than the other TPG if they are the same grade and also with a CAC sticker?
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Maybe I wasn't clear. A NGC CAC coin compared to a PCGS coin without CAC. There is also an underlying assumption in my question that the PCGS coin would not CAC. I agree with @skier07 observations. I guess what I'm saying is how does the market evaluate/rank various combinations of plastic and stickers. Is it 1)PCGS CAC 2) PCGS 3)NGC CAC or 1) PCGS CAC 2) NGC CAC 3)PCGS. I would argue that PCGS CAC and NGC CAC coins at the same grade should have equal eye appeal, yet I believe the market still pays more for PCGS CAC over NGC CAC (although don't quote me on that).
I had misread your post and thought both coins were the same grade and both coins had received a CAC sticker.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
@Clackamas1 Rare coin for sure.
@winesteven Not so sure if a perfect example?
Based on the pics the 1st coin is 63/64. The second 58/62. From your guys comments the 1st must be CAC. Is the 1st coin net graded, or under graded, perhaps with a gold bean?
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Personally I’m indifferent to PCGS CAC vs NGC CAC but I think there are some people who either think one is better, have a registry set preference, or who just want every coin in the same holder for aesthetics.
For type set collectors, it is very difficult to build the required expertise to identify A vs B vs C coins in every series. It takes too long and the average collector doesn’t have access to hundreds or thousands of coins to examine in hand to get up to speed. CAC acts as a filter.
I do prefer the cleaner look of PCGS plastic (my opinion anyway). Although the coin is the star of the show, presentation does matter.
As well you should be because there is no difference. If a coin will CAC at 65 in NGC it will cross and CAC at 65 to PCGS. I have done it dozens of times.
Not always, I’m sure you have a better chance at crossing a coin that was CAC approved but even with CAC some NGC coins do not cross to pcgs at the same grade.
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To drive the point home, IF you have two identical coins (condition and eye appeal) in the same grade, one graded by NGC, and the other by PCGS, both with CAC stickers, they SHOULD be treated the same as each other regarding pricing and demand. However, the reality is they are not. "The Market" will tend to value the identical coin graded by PCGS higher.
Based on the above, I suspect many collectors with NGC coins with CAC stickers will look to cross to the new CACG holders at that grade. Separately, I initially thought that would also result in a LOT of new plus graded coins at CACG due to those NGC CAC stickered coins getting crossed that are "A" coins. JA has estimated that roughly about 25% of CAC stickered coins are "A" coins. But a very knowledgeable person pointed out to me that many of the NGC CAC stickered coins that are "A" coins are likely to have already crossed to PCGS, so what's left of NGC CAC stickered coins that are "A" coins may indeed be less than 25%. I agree with that point he made!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
And if one looks at the Greysheet app, Steve's point is validated by value distinctions often shown between the two services (with CAC certification and without).
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Actually, I disagree, in that I do think it is indeed a perfect example. His point is made since PCGS graded each coin the same grade as each other. CAC felt one of those two coins was solid for the grade, and the other one wasn’t! Is there anyone here that can’t determine which one of those two coins CAC deemed merited their sticker? By the way, the poster of that reply only mentioned a CAC sticker, so I must assume it was green and not gold.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Gold sticker - they feel it has potential to upgrade.
At recent show guy tried get 65 money on 64 CAC gold sticker DE coin (grade on holder) offering coin to dealer setup next to me. Dealer said “take it up with the TPG (send it in) Bullwinkle. Me no dinero above 64 grade on holder (laughing).”
Green Sticker means solid for the grade - use CAC CPG as value. A gold sticker - send it in for upgrade.
Gold is only “potential” to upgrade at PCGS, but if you were to crack out and send in raw I feel think you’d be successful most of the time. The market doesn’t really treat it as a “potential”, technically it’s treated as at least 1 grade up and can cross automatically at the next grade up once CACG accepts submissions. Since they’re given out so sparingly, the collectible value alone can cause a coin to trade for the same price that it would 2-3 grades up or more in some cases.
While I don’t know the specifics of the experience with the dealer at the coin show, I would bet a large sum that the dealer made a poor financial decision if he didn’t want to pay normal 65 money for 64 gold cac DE.
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Potential and “the market” are 2 speculative things or for that matter conjecture. Before the 89 crash “the market” and its potential to go up were terms used. It crashed. Reality can be mean. Many players went bankrupt or CC debt default.
Yes if send gold sticker coin in it may have “potential” go higher than just one grade too. But conjecture does not cut it on the bourse. And yes there are people who will pay thru nose for gold sticker coins bid them up real high. However I would not call them “the market” lol. If JA will pay a grade up or more for gold sticker - send it to him.
One needs to know the right venue for certain coins. Cougar and his ilk are greysheet dealers. A gold stickered coin should be consigned or sold to dealers like Paradime that deals in these types of coins or to be sold at auction to access those collectors who value/collect the gold designation. That's also the reality and it can be generous.
BTW - A gold sticker represents, in CAC's opinion, at least a 1.5 point upgrade (assuming MS coins) in that it will green sticker at the next level. The .5 is reflective of a coin being a B or better coin.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
The current market is the reality, we’re not just talking about greed driven speculation in the 80’s market bubble. While the market has its ups and downs as a whole, CAC is a trusted and recognized brand that that people pay a premium for. JA is very strict with gold, and if he gives out a gold bean it means he would sticker the coin green if it were housed in the next grade. There’s not that many gold stickered $20 Libs. They will automatically upgrade the coin into their holder.
You’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but if you ever want to sell a gold cac ms64 double eagle, please call me and I will gladly take it off your hands for 65 money.
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Yes your entitled to your opinion too. I simply run a business, not a democracy. However “their holder” CACG is not on the bourse yet is it? What about the CAC gold stickered coin that goes bad in the holder. However if he does all these wonderful things send it to him.