CAC Questions
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Does having a green cac sticker mean a coin will upgrade?
I only ask for one reason.
I don't want to pay a premium unless it does.
If it's because they agree with the grade it may sway my decision to purchase a WLH only if it's not a huge premium.
I just want to get this squared away in my thinking.
When will they start their grading services?
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Green stickers mean they like it for that grade. There are many coins in holders that they do not like for the assigned grade. I only buy gold coins and I only buy CAC coins.
Gold CAC stickers means they feel it will upgrade though no guarantees
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@Watchtower No, the CAC green bean means that the coin is high end for the grade. It does not mean that it is under graded. I personally do not agree with many of the CAC stickered coins that I come across. They apparently don't take strike quality into consideration for example, because I see CAC stickered V nickels every day that have several flat stars, and the reverse corn ear is completely flat - coins which I would never buy.
So, while this opinion is definitely not popular, to me, CAC stickers mean absolutely nothing.
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
Learn to grade conservatively before spending money on coins. Regardless of the plastic or stickers this is what will really save you money in the long run. The "market" consists of large numbers of collectors and dealers. A significant percentage of the participants simply can't grade. Make sure that you are one of those that CAN grade. Make your own decisions. Don't rely blindly on the grading opinions of others.
They do consider strike quality.
Since PCGS has obviously graded many of those Liberty nickels with flat stars and completely flat corn ears (some of which are stickered by CAC and others, rejected), does that mean PCGS grading also means “absolutely nothing” to you? If not, why not?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Well if they do consider strike quality, they failed miserably on many, many coins that I have seen - at least in the V nickel series, which is what I spend the majority of my time with.
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
CAC's green bean means they think the coin is correctly graded (solid) at its current grade. Gold means they think it's under graded by at least a point (they see it as solid at the next grade up).
However, when evaluating a potential purchase, you will want to determine qualities of the coins you want that CAC and PCGS/NGC grading do not say on their labels. For example, if you want a coin with exceptional luster, you're going to have to be able to evaluate each coin case by case and on your own. CAC is a good tool, but you can't rely solely on it.
Coin Photographer.
I try and pay as little premium as possible when buying cac coins
That being said I’ve historically paid up to 10% premium if I really like the coin. Other times I’ve paid 0% premium
It does help when you go to sell
It’s kinda like having a second opinion from John Albanese concerning the pcgs or ngc grade. Similar to Rick Snows “eagle eye” sticker
I know my opinion isn't a popular one, because there seems to be a general respect and desire for CAC stickered coins. I'm just saying that in my years of collecting the V nickel series, I have seen countless CAC stickered coins that I had no idea how they were considered "high end" for the grade.
To answer your question - I have every confidence in PCGS grading. Poor strike quality does not preclude a coin from being graded. Straight grades are one thing, but the green bean is supposed to mean that a coin is outstanding for the grade, right? In many cases, those coins are outstanding, BUT in some cases they are not. I think what @FlyingAl just said above is the sentiment I am trying to convey... "CAC is a good tool, but you can't rely solely on it."
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
No, a CAC sticker isn’t meant to mean “outstanding for the grade”. Neither CAC nor any other tool should be solely relied upon.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Actually, no it doesn't. CAC Green means the coin is SOLID for the grade, not high-end. If you divide into A, B, C ... A is the best of that grade, C is the borderline, and B is the middle. A's and B's get CAC Green beans.
So what CAC really says is it's not marginal at that grade.
CAC Gold bean means it would Green bean at the next higher grade.
But there is no lock on upgrades, CAC and the TPGs are separate companies.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Strike quality is one of the differences between technical grading and market grading.
But that ship sailed and sank before leaving the harbor (like the Vasa) in 1989 when the ANA sold ANACS to Amos Press.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
And strike is just one component of grading. A coin can be of outstanding overall quality, and still exhibit areas of weakness in strike. You don’t have to like it, but that doesn’t mean it’s not a good or great coin.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
As others have explained, green bean means they thought it was solid for the grade. When selecting coins for purchase, I feel that I get more “bang for my buck” buying coins that are at the upper end of the grade. Take this example-
Let’s say I’m shopping a coin that cost ~2k in ms63, ~4k in ms64, and ~16k in ms65. I find two coins in ms64 available within my price range. Coin 1 is average and “just made the grade” and is priced at $3600. Coin 2 is superb for the grade, and looks more like a ms65 at first glance, but it’s priced accordingly at $4400. More often than not, coin 2 will have a CAC sticker. I prefer to buy coin 2.
Edit: grammar
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I completely agree, Mark. Our coin tastes are subjective just like our tastes in music, or food - which is why I prefaced my remarks with "I know this is an unpopular opinion" because I know I'm in the minority on this.
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
Strike is relative to grade. A 64 need not have a sharp a strike as a 67. It is only one grading criteria.
Except you claimed that CAC ignores strike which is very different.
Cac coins can be great for starters, mainly because it shows that not only the 3 graders at the tpg but also another neutral third party has reviewed the coin and determined its well within the middle to upper quality for the grade. I literally built a review set 63 to 66 with cac in Morgan's so I have great samples to compare against and determine grade on my own and learn the differences.
As for the market, cac stickers do draw a bit of a premium because of the recognized quality. But as others have pointed out that doesn't mean you will like it. You will want to develop your own tastes for what features of your coin are important to you. For instance on walkers, I know a guy who specifically looks for strong feathers on the eagle leg. If you learn to grade for yourself, you will find that you can find some really great coins that don't have the cac sticker and save some premium.
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At the end of the day, the only thing that should matter is the coin itself, not in whose holder it resides or whose sticker it does or does not bear. Education is key. Lazy collectors/investors reap what they sow.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I did say "Apparently" because of my personal experience, but admittedly, I only work with a few specific series. For me, in the series that I work with, strike is the first thing I look at. We can debate it all day, but I stand by my original statement. CAC stickers do not impress me. You seem to be a fan, so, I apologize if my opinion bothers you.
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
No. PCGS and NGC have their own grading standards. A coin with a CAC sticker is an opinion by CAC and not an opinion from PCGS or NGC. These entities will make a grading decision based upon such standards.
Also, much forgotten, is that a CAC sticker indicates that they would be interested in buying the coin and their sticker indicates they are a market maker in coins with CAC blessing. It is not intended to convey that the coin will upgrade at other services or, in my estimation, that it will upgrade at their impending grading services.
There are no guarantees in numismatics.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I hear what you are saying. I see MANY CAC stickered coins I wouldn't buy also. But I should point out the obvious: Many of those same coins were graded by PCGS as well. I think that is where Mark's first comment to you was key. Whatever the case I don't think your opinion of CAC set people off here. I think it is the way you explained your reasoning behind it. That's all...no big deal.
Personally I just use CAC, PCGS and NGC as a tool. Period. No holder is going to tell me whether I like a coin or not.
jom
I don't care if you love or hate CAC. I do care that you not make affirmative statements that are flawed.
Personally, I like raw coins just fine.
Usually, the CAC sticker just means that the owner will be asking top dollar for his coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Are you certain that the statement is flawed? It's an opinion based on my personal experience, and that experience tells me that CAC does not take strike into consideration, at least in the series that I work with most.
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
Definitely the dealer will be asking top dollar.
Yes. I'm quite certain. Strike is part of the grade, whether technical or market. They could not simply ignore it.
From the horse's mouth:
https://www.caccoin.com/forums/discussion/78/cac-responds-to-a-frequently-asked-question-what-of-coins-does-cac-approve
I have already seen that thread. I'm sure they give strike some consideration, but it's not much.
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
I'm actually on the same school of thought as @PerryHall in that I see CAC as more of a marketing tool than anything else.
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
It's the appropriate amount. You care more. That's fine. That doesn't mean they should. I hate the way everyone grades Buff nickels. That doesn't make them wrong, it just means I need to buy XF or better if I want a full horn.
They apparently don't take strike quality into consideration for example, because I see CAC stickered V nickels every day that have several flat stars, and the reverse corn ear is completely flat - coins which I would never buy.
>
I am not good at grading or perceiving PVC. Learning the grade is correct and the coin hasn't been messed is what I like about having a CAC. The opportunity to evaluate the quality of a strike always gives me a good feeling when trying to find nice coins. Winesteven has gone even further by requesting an Eagle Eye sticker to evaluate the strike on his Indian Heads as well a CAC.
A business opportunity for you - along with Ricko's "Blast White" there might be a need for a "STAR" sticker service.
I haven't seen any replies with a link to the CAC homepage yet, so...
https://www.caccoin.com
Go to the CAC site and read up on what you are interested in with respect to their services and ideas. As for your questions, which I have quoted below-
Does having a green cac sticker mean a coin will upgrade?
I only ask for one reason.
I don't want to pay a premium unless it does.
If it's because they agree with the grade it may sway my decision to purchase a WLH only if it's not a huge premium.
I just want to get this squared away in my thinking.
When will they start their grading services?
A green sticker simply means that CAC believes the coin is solid or better for the grade. Might it upgrade? Of course, and I have had many green sticker CAC coins upgrade after I sold them to clients. However, are they guaranteed to upgrade? No way, no how. If you don't want to pay a premium for a coin with a CAC sticker then don't. Of course, at this point a whole boatload of coins above a certain value have likely cycled through CAC so you may want to be more careful as the value of potential purchases increases, but that might be obvious under any circumstance. As for the grading service, well, I'd suggest going to their website and checking (I have not checked) since that might have the best information.
I've written similar statements to what I am about to write on multiple occasions within the forum, but will repeat again my thoughts on the issue. CAC is a tool that is available to all and, as such, it is quite similar to knowing how to use a loupe; having the knowledge to spot counterfeit pieces; understanding what manipulated and original coinage should look like or how they will likely appear; being able to interpret printed guide prices and auction results; understanding how to grade according to the ANA standards and how this grading differs from the various TPG grading standards; and learning all the options for buying and selling within the market.
Sadly, the vast majority of collectors ignore their study of coinage and thus are not truly numismatists. However, some folks pursue this knowledge and will happily listen to other opinions, regardless of whether or not they agree with those opinions. CAC can help all, but will help those who are willing to accept their help the most.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
@Watchtower, a discussion about CAC will always yield a ton of different opinions on this forum. Many will refute the value of the service until their last breath. Regardless, only YOU can decide what your collecting goals are, and how you want to approach it. Personally, I feel that CAC helped me immensely in the selection of the coins that I have purchased, by narrowing down the amount of coins I have to sort through to find an example that meets my criteria. Sure, there's plenty of good coins without a bean, and if you have the time to dedicate to really learning about a series and you're confident that you can detect surface issues and correctly grade a coin than you don't have to prioritize the sticker, but the TPGs miss things all the time and the added benefit of JA's approval has value to me.
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No it does not mean a coin will upgrade, just that a coin with a green CAC bean is an A or B coin for the grade in CAC's opinion.
While not 100% of the time, most of the time you will pay a premium for a CAC coin, the market has spoken very loudly on that aspect. There are few CAC "bargains".
Is an A or B coin worth a premium over a C coin? Usually the market says yes even if there is not a CAC bean.
Last year JA suggested a "soft opening" for the first quarter 2023, however no date has been set yet. And that will not be for the general public, initially submissions are going to be limited.
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Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Ok, but have you considered WHY it's a good marketing tool? Maybe it's because Albanese is one of the best graders on the planet? I mean, if I were to put stickers on graded coins do you think anyone other than my mom would give a damn? Hell, my wife would kick my ass for wasting print paper, ink and people's time.
jom
It's also rather hard to call it simply a marketing tool. If i sell a CAC coin, CAC doesn't benefit directly from the sale. That coin can trade 10x and there is no incremental benefit to CAC beyond the original sticker. If CAC is "marketing", then so are PCGS and NGC. To call it "marketing", I think you need to be selling the product. It's a little complex with CAC because they do have the exchange that PCGS/NGC do not.
Both PCGS and CAC are selling an expert opinion. The market values those opinions. The sticker or slab are just the statement of those opinions. That goes far beyond "marketing ".
I think my question was answered thoroughly thank you very much.
I apologize if I set the stage for controversy. This was not intentional and I am never motivated to create that kind of atmosphere. I grew out of that a long while ago.
I will explain what has brought on the question.
I have spent hours. Let's say 100 hours studying and trying to grasp the ins and outs of grading what I want to collect. I don't think I've scratched the surface. However, with my most recent purchases I did spend the time to know what I was buying.
During that process the sticker came into play. So I asked my question
I will buy slabbed coins and I already have. Most of them in very high grade. I did not want to overpay. I've been there and done that. I blame that on myself.
I am a little concerned with the idea that "most coins have cycled through CAC" which leads to most coins without this sticker may be in the C class of grade.
I hope that's not true.
I am not so sure it's necessary with WLH in all cases. After investing all that dough in grading fees and the sticker you'd be left negative actual cost.
I would also like to buy some raw coins and submit them knowing that I acquired the skill to grade for myself.
Even more reason to study and plan for each purchase. To know how they come. I want to have the basic skill set to determine for myself what to pay for the date and grade I'm ready to purchase.
Aside from bring so darn beautiful they are obtainable for middle class folks whatever that means these days.
Seems I could go on more but I will stop typing......
Walking Liberty Halves are so darn beautiful. Totally agree.
What is 'very high grade' for your slabbed coin purchases? How does it compare to condition census levels? Example is a 43-P. If you acquired a unstickered MS65 or 66 example (several hundred higher graded examples exist) it would not be safe to assume that CAC has reviewed and rejected it. For an unstickered 67+ or 68 example (near or top condition census grade) your assumption likely is correct as the financial dynamics favor CAC review.
It is great that you are pursuing learning to effectively grade raw coins, a skill that will put you at great advantage.
If you see one of those beaned coins where the strike doesn't meet your expectations have you ever bothered to call John on the phone and ask him why an apparently weak strike was given his blessing? He's always willing to discuss coins that have stickered.
I see in your post you wrote in quotes "most coins have cycled through CAC" and I wonder if you were quoting my post in this thread where I wrote-
"Of course, at this point a whole boatload of coins above a certain value have likely cycled through CAC so you may want to be more careful as the value of potential purchases increases, but that might be obvious under any circumstance."
You'll note that I intentionally included "above a certain value" as a caveat in my statement. CAC has been around for what, about 15-years perhaps, and they have seen a ton of coins, but I would suspect that as the price level of the coin increases then the likelihood that it has been sent to CAC increases, too. Not very many $10 coins get submitted to CAC and probably not a high percentage of $100 coins get sent to CAC, either, but I'd guess that any $5,000 or $10,000 coin you pick up on the bourse has had a higher probability of going to CAC than any $10 or $100 coin on the bourse. That is what I was getting at...as the value of the coin increases you have to be more careful about everything.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
@BAJJERFAN No sir, I never knew that was an option. This hobby is full of wonderful people, and I'm sure John is a great guy and does his job well. I didn't mean to ruffle so many feathers here. I know my opinion is an unpopular one, so I will just keep it to myself from now on.
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
At the end of the day the coin is obviously most important but when the time comes to sell you might feel differently about holders and stickers.
Tom I honestly didn't look back to see the comment about "cycled through".
This should show that I am listening and learning.
I totally understand where you coming from and your point is well taken.
For myself I would add $1500 and up. The reason would be as someone has said "when the time comes to sell".
I don't imagine that all of the coins I buy in the first round will be where I end up as far as grade goes. Who knows. I may end up with a raw coin that is and upgrade. There are plenty out there to be found. While there are rarities in the series there are also millions of upgraded coins just waiting to get picked. I just need to zero in on my skill set.
Maybe your post will be brought to his attention and he will chime in.
He doesn’t post here.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
He has in the past, but maybe he gave it up.
No. If you spend a little time at Legend's site https://legendnumismatics.com/inventory/ reading descriptions you'll see several PCGS/CAC coins that Legend was sure would upgrade but didn't. I suspect many other dealers have those coins as well.
Your last statement is exactly right. The first part is not true, not entirely. CAC isn't ubiquitous. It is well known but to say that most or all coins have been to cac would be a mistake. Have a lot been? Yes... But when there are literally hundreds of millions of coins, a lot is still a small, small fraction. They would need a literal army of graders to grade any sizeable portion of coins.
With that said, as @TomB said, the higher the value the higher the probability it may have been to cac. But ultimately that isn't what matters, nor should it. If you learn to grade yourself (which it sounds like you are), you will be able to find many samples of a and b class coins within the grade you are after without the bean. As I said before, the bean only indicates a second third party has reviewed the coin and found it good for the grade. It's all just opinions in the end, and doesn't mean you will like it.
There are literally millions of coins to be had... Be patient and decide what you like yourself, and do your homework and you will likely come out just fine. The bean should only be a bonus if it happens to have it.
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I'm a dealer so I sell all the time, raw and slabbed, stickered and not.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I might be a little cynical/jaded here but after walking the last Long Beach I attended, I came away with the opinion that several dealers were starting a museum. Only CAC coins at 20%+ over priced. Maybe they were being sold, maybe not. If it's a $2,500 coin then that is what it is. I'm not interested in paying $3,000-3,500 because of the bean.
My guess is some collectors need the bean and dealers will happily accommodate them.