Home U.S. Coin Forum

Is there a difference between 1909 Proof

Lincoln cent and a 1909 matte proof Lincoln cent?
Not to be confused with the 1909 VDB.
I saw one for sale in a 1909 NGC 63 holder as a proof matte for sale and wondered if there were two types. If there the usual shiney proof and a matte proof?
After doing some research I almost believe the proof is matte type struck on three different dies. I thought it would be worthwhile to ask the forum.
While it's not something I collect it is something I am curious about.

Comments

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,022 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Proof Lincoln Cents from 1909-1916 are typically referred to as Matte Proofs. There aren't different types of production within each of those years.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Mark everyone is always looking for a bargain. I spotted one in an NGC 63 holder for $800. Is that a cheap price?

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,479 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Some Matte Proof coins, especially the bronze cents can be shinier than others. The reason is that the dull surfaces can be worn off from the fraction produced when the coins are struck.

    Look at it this way. In the old days, cameo Proof coins were produced from the pieces that were struck with new or sometimes re-polished dies. After a comparatively small number of strikings, the cameo went away. It didn’t happen as quickly with Matte Proof cents because the mint wanted to make them with a duller finish. Still, brighter coins were produced especially with the coins with higher mint ages.

    This one reason why Matte Proof cents can be hard to spot when they are uncertified. You have go by the sharply squared off rims and sharply defined devices.

    I have a certified 1913 Matte Proof cent. One side is brighter than the other. It is not from cleaning, but is from the fact that one side, the reverse, had been used to strike coins for a lesser time, and therefore has more of a Matte finish.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,022 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Watchtower said:
    Mark everyone is always looking for a bargain. I spotted one in an NGC 63 holder for $800. Is that a cheap price?

    How could I possibly answer that, without knowing the grade, the color designation and what the coin looks like?
    And I disagree with your statement that "everyone is always looking for a bargain."

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • @MFeld said:

    @Watchtower said:
    Mark everyone is always looking for a bargain. I spotted one in an NGC 63 holder for $800. Is that a cheap price?

    How could I possibly answer that, without knowing the grade, the color designation and what the coin looks like?
    And I disagree with your statement that "everyone is always looking for a bargain."

    I apologize. I say things sometimes that make me look stupid. This kind of thinking is inexcusable. In the future I will try to choose my words a little more carefully. I emabrarrass myself more often then not.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,022 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2023 8:34AM

    @Watchtower said:

    @MFeld said:

    @Watchtower said:
    Mark everyone is always looking for a bargain. I spotted one in an NGC 63 holder for $800. Is that a cheap price?

    How could I possibly answer that, without knowing the grade, the color designation and what the coin looks like?
    And I disagree with your statement that "everyone is always looking for a bargain."

    I apologize. I say things sometimes that make me look stupid. This kind of thinking is inexcusable. In the future I will try to choose my words a little more carefully. I emabrarrass myself more often then not.

    No need to apologize and you didn't sound stupid. I bet each of us forgets to include some of the relevant information in posts/questions, from time to time.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • WaterSportWaterSport Posts: 6,708 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Considering the very low mintages - Matte proofs in lower grades are often under $1000. This is because the demand for collectors of Matte proofs is not nearly as strong as say 1936 and on. Since they were shipped and thus often kept a long time in tissue paper the result is very colorful examples. Those that are full red and those that are very colorful will command more. I would research a bit more and study the availability before you buy your first one. A great book to have is Kevin Flynn's book titled Lincoln Cent Matte Proofs. Its readily available on amazon or eBay.

    WS

    Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,545 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is a question for somebody like Roger B.: During Proof coin production, was it common to replace the die for one side of the coin on account of die wear while continuing to use the other die until it became too worn to use for Proofs?

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,725 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Matte proof Lincoln cents (MPLs) are great coins. However, even though they had relatively low mintages and they were only issued from 1909-1916, there isn't a wildly deep pool of collectors itching to complete the set. Part of the reason is that most MPLs are simply not that attractive at this point in time with having become spotted, unevenly toned and/or previously cleaned. After all, who wants to spend $1k or more per coin for aesthetically unpleasant examples? Another part of the reason has to be that the 1909 VDB MPL is far too expensive for nearly all but the most wealthy collectors to obtain. That coin in a mid-grade with good eye appeal might come up at auction only once ever few years and might run $50k to obtain. This is just far too much for the typical collector to sink into one coin and without this one coin the set is missing more than 10% of the coins that make up the set.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,845 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    Here is a question for somebody like Roger B.: During Proof coin production, was it common to replace the die for one side of the coin on account of die wear while continuing to use the other die until it became too worn to use for Proofs?

    Yes. Usually it was the anvil die being replaced due to the easier to access and view by the press operator.

    Visual evidence of this can be seen by one sided cameo proofs from 1950-64, as well as die records 1936-42 where only one die was replaced while the other die continued striking coins (often due to cracking or another issue).

    Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,479 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would not even consider putting together a complete set of the 1909 to ‘16 Matte Proof Lincolns. The 1909-VDB is a total stopper. One guy owned over 50 of them and still has them, probably. The coin is quite scarce, but it’s also over priced in my opinion.

    I have a 1909 Plain in PR-66 R& B and the 1913 in PR-65, Brown that is in a 1913 Proof set I assembled a few years ago. That is going to be it for me. I had a chance at one point to upgrade the color grade on they 1913 cent but passed.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file