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How NOT to negotiate a discount?

jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,976 ✭✭✭✭✭

Message from eBay member:

"Hi,
Is there any chance you can make an offer for this piece lower than the listed price. The reason I ask is that I have checked NGC Verify and has both your offering and the one with the same number listed on NGC blown up and there seems to be slight discrepancies between the two pieces. This could be for a variety of reasons and I am not saying someone has substituted a contemporary piece into the holder, I am just letting you know that if you go through the same process you may also see the discrepancies. It is, in all likelihood, a genuine piece. And my concerns may not even be noteworthy - that said, is there room for an offer somewhat less that the listed value?"

Summary: This coin could be a modern fake. So if like to buy it at a discount.

My response:
"This coin came from a major auction house. I'm quite sure there is no problem with it. NGC photography is mediocre. I'm also not sure what that has to do with your desire to pay less. If you really think there's a problem, why would you want it at all?

I'm not comfortable with this email and I would recommend not purchasing the coin."

Thoughts?

[If you care, it's a 13th century French angel bracteate for under $100. I'm unaware of anyone bothering to counterfeit them. ]

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Comments

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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    I don't mind a request for a reasonable discount. Let's face it, no matter what price you list it at, they always want a discount. But talking down the coin is either an annoying ploy or a legitimate concern that makes me think they are a return risk.

    Agreed. Posters here complain about dealers doing that when buying, it's not well received when collectors do it, too.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,976 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DeplorableDan said:
    I think your response was appropriate. As you stated, If they suspected a counterfeit, why would they still want the coin? NGC photography (slab shots, not PV) is notoriously mediocre, and if they were actually concerned about a counterfeit, I don’t see how that can be used to justify a lower price from you. They should have just simply asked if you had any room to come down lol. That being said, at least they were polite about it

    Agree. I didn't block them...yet. lol

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    MilesWaitsMilesWaits Posts: 5,310 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yet…..they are blockable for sure and your response was right on, well thought out and professional.

    Now riding the swell in PM's and surf.
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    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree. You handled it perfectly. No reason to block at this point... Although I wouldn't blame you if you did. I blocked one recently that told me I would accept their lowball offer because my coin is worth what they think it is.

    If you want to make an offer just make an offer. Much simpler and no risk of confusion. I had a guy tell me he wanted to offer $x amount for 2 of my coins that would have resulted in a loss... I used the reply with offer option and sent him my lowest offer and never heard back. But at least he was respectful about it. Just matter of fact... My offer is this.

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,313 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would block them just to prevent a future issue. Also, knowing they would not be satisfied with this item if they paid your asking price and would most likely return it. Even though they were polite, they offered an offensive attack on your coin's credibility and then wanted a lower price, for what incase it was nongenuine? Sorry, no second chance there, IMO.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,735 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wouldn't even reply.

    Life is short.

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    Coin FinderCoin Finder Posts: 6,954 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It made me laugh! I like your response. What did they do after your response?

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    IkesTIkesT Posts: 2,594 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    My response:
    "This coin came from a major auction house. I'm quite sure there is no problem with it. NGC photography is mediocre. I'm also not sure what that has to do with your desire to pay less. If you really think there's a problem, why would you want it at all?

    I'm not comfortable with this email and I would recommend not purchasing the coin."

    The last sentence says it all - you do not want this person buying the coin or any further frustrations that may entail (nor would I!). I would block them.

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    1630Boston1630Boston Posts: 13,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You are a well-spoken and patient man @jmlanzaf
    I love your posts on this forum and I am educated with your knowledge.
    I especially like your posts about interacting with other people/buyers/sellers.
    I am sure, whatever you do with this "buyer", it will be the right thing.
    boston :)

    Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb

    Bad transactions with : nobody to date

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,439 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think the OP is taking this way too personally. This is a common negotiating tactic that I've seen dealers use many times. Talk down the coin before making a low-ball offer. I would have passed on the offer and then put it out of my mind. I certainly wouldn't start a thread about it but I guess venting here is good therapy for the OP.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,976 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2023 3:46AM

    @PerryHall said:
    I think the OP is taking this way too personally. This is a common negotiating tactic that I've seen dealers use many times. Talk down the coin before making a low-ball offer. I would have passed on the offer and then put it out of my mind. I certainly wouldn't start a thread about it but I guess venting here is good therapy for the OP.

    Talking a coin down is common. I'm not a fan of that tactic. But at least it makes sense. But calling it a modern counterfeit and then offering to buy it really doesn't make sense.

    I wasn't really venting. I just found it rather odd/funny. As i mentioned in another post, I didn't even block them, and I'm pretty quick to block people.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,976 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thebigeng said:
    It made me laugh! I like your response. What did they do after your response?

    I actually just got a response. "I understand. Good luck. "

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2023 3:55AM

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @MasonG said:
    Whenever I get comments with issues about a coin I have for sale along with a request for a lower price, I tell the prospective buyer that the coin I have for sale is probably not for them and that they should look for an example that's more in line with their expectations.

    I don't mind a request for a reasonable discount. Let's face it, no matter what price you list it at, they always want a discount. But talking down the coin is either an annoying ploy or a legitimate concern that makes me think they are a return risk.

    The reasoning is interesting. It's like the person is saying it's not legit but they still want to buy it.

    I agree on the return risk. Looks like they are setting up to return. Could the buyer even swap out the coin given the insinuation the coin isn't legit?

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    FrazFraz Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:
    I think the OP is taking this way too personally. This is a common negotiating tactic that I've seen dealers use many times. Talk down the coin before making a low-ball offer. I would have passed on the offer and then put it out of my mind. I certainly wouldn't start a thread about it but I guess venting here is good therapy for the OP.

    This is the rational reaction of an honest dealer; nothing to take personally. The buyer insinuates that it did not look genuine. Seller has to think ahead, and nips the bud. I see it as a subtle threat, hinting at extortion. It would bother me. The contradiction of being willing to buy a coin with a “look” ?
    @jmlanzarf also figured that had they transacted, it would become a return transaction too.

    Thanks for the story.

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    johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The story matches your thread title perfectly. Couldn’t agree more.

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf... I think your response was good... That had all the indications of becoming a problem transaction. I have made offers on auctions before... some were accepted, some were not. I never tried to qualify the offer... Just a straight offer, usually at ten to fifteen percent below price, because, IMO, that was what it was worth to me. Cheers, RickO

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    oldabeintxoldabeintx Posts: 1,637 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very kind of you to respond.

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    JoeLewisJoeLewis Posts: 1,906 ✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:
    I think the OP is taking this way too personally. This is a common negotiating tactic that I've seen dealers use many times. Talk down the coin before making a low-ball offer. I would have passed on the offer and then put it out of my mind. I certainly wouldn't start a thread about it but I guess venting here is good therapy for the OP.

    Hmmm. I don’t find anything wrong with his response, nor the appropriateness of posting it here. He comes across as very professional and respectful. I enjoy posts like these because like most here, I’m not a dealer, and am interested in seeing glimpses of what they deal with.

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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2023 9:13AM

    @PerryHall said:
    I think the OP is taking this way too personally. This is a common negotiating tactic that I've seen dealers use many times.

    And people regularly complain about it on this forum. If it's a common tactic and nothing to take personally, why do you think they do that?

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    airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 21,910 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:
    I think the OP is taking this way too personally. This is a common negotiating tactic that I've seen dealers use many times. Talk down the coin before making a low-ball offer. I would have passed on the offer and then put it out of my mind. I certainly wouldn't start a thread about it but I guess venting here is good therapy for the OP.

    I read it more as passing along a funny story than taking it personally. That said, as far as red flags go, there are a few differences between the OP's experience and your scenario:

    -Talking down a coin is a way to make it seem less valuable, where insinuating it's counterfeit is a way to make it seem worthless (collectible counterfeits aside)

    -Whether or not the implication is that the seller did it, the "buyer" is suggesting the seller is passing along significantly problematic merchandise. Saying the slab and coin were tampered with is very different than saying the coin might have a market acceptable issue, but just isn't amazing.

    I agree with the OP that the buyer is basically saying the coin is worthless, but he'll do a favor by taking it at a discount. That's not the same as saying the coin is worth less, and he'll take it at a discount.

    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
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    jt88jt88 Posts: 2,838 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think that's a good reply. I always tell the buyer to buy from other sellers if his offer is too far apart from my list price.

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    jt88jt88 Posts: 2,838 ✭✭✭✭✭

    tell the buyer to buy from other sellers is a polite way to say go away.

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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2023 2:40PM

    @jt88 said:
    I always tell the buyer to buy from other sellers if his offer is too far apart from my list price.

    When I respond to a lowball offer, I thank the buyer for their interest and tell them that since our opinions on value are so far apart they'd be better off buying from someone who more closely agrees with their thoughts on pricing.

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    telephoto1telephoto1 Posts: 4,749 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @MasonG said:
    Whenever I get comments with issues about a coin I have for sale along with a request for a lower price, I tell the prospective buyer that the coin I have for sale is probably not for them and that they should look for an example that's more in line with their expectations.

    I don't mind a request for a reasonable discount. Let's face it, no matter what price you list it at, they always want a discount. But talking down the coin is either an annoying ploy or a legitimate concern that makes me think they are a return risk.

    This. You were looking at a lose- lose. Even if you discount it, he'd probably return it for some lame reason. I call these guys time wasters and he'd likely end up on my block list.


    RIP Mom- 1932-2012
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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @telephoto1 said:
    I call these guys time wasters...

    I learned this to be so by trying to make deals with some of them. Many times, it went like this:

    Coin listed for $125, buyer offers $25. I counteroffer $110. Buyer counters at $30, I decline. Buyer reoffers at $70, with a comment "Can we meet in the middle?"

    I really want to respond to offers like this with "If I had known you'd want to meet in the middle, my previous offer would have been $210, making $120 the middle. Work for you?" Maybe some day I will. >:)

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    telephoto1telephoto1 Posts: 4,749 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If someone offers me $25 for a $125 coin, I don't bother responding. You can auto-reject offers below the threshold you set.


    RIP Mom- 1932-2012
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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @telephoto1 said:
    If someone offers me $25 for a $125 coin, I don't bother responding. You can auto-reject offers below the threshold you set.

    I don't use auto-reject because I have some buyers who show up a few times a year and make offers on a large number of coins at one time. Most of the offers are acceptable but occasionally, there are a couple that are lower than I'd accept if they were made alone but when considering the total amount, are not a dealbreaker and I don't want these guys to think I'm nickel-and-diming them by rejecting those offers.

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    NeophyteNumismatistNeophyteNumismatist Posts: 894 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Calling a genuine, certified coin fake... and then trying to negotiate a deal on that basis is beyond absurd. How much more can the buyer insult the intelligence of the seller? Dumb. :s

    I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.

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    cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,062 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2023 4:04PM

    Step 1. Block bidder.
    Step 2. Tell the buyer “click buy it now” and that you’ll “provide the discount at checkout if successfully purchased on the invoice” to that account. The buyer is blocked and cannot execute the sale.
    Step 3. What for him to buy it from another account, a supposed violation of eBay rules that leads to account bans. You now also have his personal information and can refuse to do business with him again.
    Step 4. Wait for eBay to nuke all of his accounts.

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    jt88jt88 Posts: 2,838 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I find letting buyer come to you is a much better way than betting the buyer with big discounts

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,091 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It makes absolutely no sense for someone to contact you regarding a possible fake slab and then having created that anxiety to ask if you can discount the suspected fake.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,976 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    @telephoto1 said:
    I call these guys time wasters...

    I learned this to be so by trying to make deals with some of them. Many times, it went like this:

    Coin listed for $125, buyer offers $25. I counteroffer $110. Buyer counters at $30, I decline. Buyer reoffers at $70, with a comment "Can we meet in the middle?"

    I really want to respond to offers like this with "If I had known you'd want to meet in the middle, my previous offer would have been $210, making $120 the middle. Work for you?" Maybe some day I will. >:)

    I always make my best offer. A lot of people interpret that as reason to press lower. Yesterday, I had a toy for sale at $29. I offered 25. The guy countered at $20. I declined. He immediately messaged me and asked "is 25 off the table?"

    As i say. It really doesn't matter what the price is, they always want lower. Even auctions. People constantly email to either offer me a lower price or to tell me if it doesn't sell they'll pay a lower price. I don't think they understand how auctions work. Lol

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    Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,640 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2023 5:59PM

    Some coins I will come down on about 10-20 pct if have plenty of room. When they try to argue with me about the price ior some other BS it’s time for them to take their BS and leave. Don’t care who they are.

    Just like there or know it all lowballers online this same trash is at shows. They will not pay the money. No use for them or their know it all BS. One could say “do you have one sell me at that.”

    I just keep my cool and might say “that’s the lowest the consignor will go.” Shuts them up or gets rid of them.

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    I always make my best offer. A lot of people interpret that as reason to press lower. Yesterday, I had a toy for sale at $29. I offered 25. The guy countered at $20. I declined. He immediately messaged me and asked "is 25 off the table?"

    As i say. It really doesn't matter what the price is, they always want lower.

    I do make sales at my listed price about half the time even though I would consider a lower offer. Based on this, I think my pricing is reasonable. And when I make a counteroffer, it's always my best offer. Many buyers initially reject it by making a lower offer that I end up declining and they end up agreeing to the previous offer I made. Occasionally, someone else buys at full price before I have a chance to respond to the buyer's counteroffer. This is especially satisfying when the guy who is trying to get a better price has told me that the item is overpriced.

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    Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,640 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2023 6:34PM

    NGC verify sometimes wil not have the label number in certificate verify. I think it rarely happens but …. I had a gold coin like this and called NGC and got that fixed. I had really gotten a super deal from the auc house. It sold online a couple months later really good margin. I think I got keystone - 100 pct.

    Bidding at auction I uasually check certificate verify for pop and tpg MV. Sometimes I pad prices up to still have profit room to move it at discount. It’s just fun and games. I know one guy on his graded world currency many low or top pop or single pop) big spender but he will want at least 50 pct margin after any haggling so he might market up cost x 2.15 to get at least 50pct or higher to get keystone (cost x 2). They are lot of people who don’t know how to price material. So they push for a sizeable discount. So the seller will pad it up with the price sticker in anticipation thereby working his angle. Or he may have his price in code in anticipation of a big spender always wanting 30 pct discount. It’s all looking out for no1 plus fun and games IMO. A bourse room dealer from the time he sets up is under pressure make the table fee plus show expenses plus target profit.

    Hagglers - I simply quote the price may counter At 10 or 20 pct off move the item (at decent margin) and they mite buy it or walk or away knowing they have been stuffed in the backfield.

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
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    jkrkjkrk Posts: 967 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2023 6:37PM

    @MasonG said:

    @telephoto1 said:
    I call these guys time wasters...

    I learned this to be so by trying to make deals with some of them. Many times, it went like this:

    Coin listed for $125, buyer offers $25. I counteroffer $110. Buyer counters at $30, I decline. Buyer reoffers at $70, with a comment "Can we meet in the middle?"

    I really want to respond to offers like this with "If I had known you'd want to meet in the middle, my previous offer would have been $210, making $120 the middle. Work for you?" Maybe some day I will. >:)

    I cannot tell you how many responses to low ball offers I've thought about sending, over the years. Clearly, unless you are severely overpricing your coins you will never reach a compromise.

    Thus, I have learned over time to simply say, "I'll pass". The response almost always ends the conversation. Do I really want to engage the person in a longer conversation? Once in awhile I will receive a 2nd e-mail asking for my best price. I simply respond by saying you saw it.

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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jkrk said:
    I cannot tell you how many responses to low ball offers I've thought about sending, over the years. Clearly, unless you are severely overpricing your coins you will never reach a compromise.

    Understood. Sometimes, I'm not really in the mood and just ignore them. Other times, however...

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    jkrkjkrk Posts: 967 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2023 7:15PM

    @MasonG said:

    @jkrk said:
    I cannot tell you how many responses to low ball offers I've thought about sending, over the years. Clearly, unless you are severely overpricing your coins you will never reach a compromise.

    Understood. Sometimes, I'm not really in the mood and just ignore them. Other times, however...

    Never happens to me. LOL.

    Sometimes, I write out an entire PM and then edit and rewrite the piece only to realize that I'm wasting my time responding. I become so wired up. I then write the "I'll pass" e-mail and move on. Those words are like having a drink to unwind. I feel so relaxed without the hangover.

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    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    I always make my best offer. A lot of people interpret that as reason to press lower. Yesterday, I had a toy for sale at $29. I offered 25. The guy countered at $20. I declined. He immediately messaged me and asked "is 25 off the table?"

    As i say. It really doesn't matter what the price is, they always want lower.

    I do make sales at my listed price about half the time even though I would consider a lower offer. Based on this, I think my pricing is reasonable. And when I make a counteroffer, it's always my best offer. Many buyers initially reject it by making a lower offer that I end up declining and they end up agreeing to the previous offer I made. Occasionally, someone else buys at full price before I have a chance to respond to the buyer's counteroffer. This is especially satisfying when the guy who is trying to get a better price has told me that the item is overpriced.

    I have seen this phenomenon lately too... I'll send out offers all day long then someone comes by and buys it now, occasionally with offers pending. Could been had if they didn't twiddle their thumbs! 😅

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    droopyddroopyd Posts: 5,381 ✭✭✭

    I'll always take advantage of the "make on offer" feature on eBay, I usually offer 20% or so below ask, sometimes it's accepted, sometimes countered at about 10% off and then I'll buy it most of the time.

    Me at the Springfield coin show:
    image
    60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,439 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @droopyd said:
    I'll always take advantage of the "make on offer" feature on eBay, I usually offer 20% or so below ask, sometimes it's accepted, sometimes countered at about 10% off and then I'll buy it most of the time.

    I agree with this buying strategy. When I see the "make an offer" option, I always assume the seller is willing to take less than his ask price. It would be foolish not to negotiate a lower price.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @droopyd said:
    I'll always take advantage of the "make on offer" feature on eBay, I usually offer 20% or so below ask, sometimes it's accepted, sometimes countered at about 10% off and then I'll buy it most of the time.

    I agree with this buying strategy. When I see the "make an offer" option, I always assume the seller is willing to take less than his ask price. It would be foolish not to negotiate a lower price.

    Not necessarily, if the coin is already reasonably priced and you buy it while somebody else is fooling around negotiating for a lower price. ;)

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,439 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @droopyd said:
    I'll always take advantage of the "make on offer" feature on eBay, I usually offer 20% or so below ask, sometimes it's accepted, sometimes countered at about 10% off and then I'll buy it most of the time.

    I agree with this buying strategy. When I see the "make an offer" option, I always assume the seller is willing to take less than his ask price. It would be foolish not to negotiate a lower price.

    Not necessarily, if the coin is already reasonably priced and you buy it while somebody else is fooling around negotiating for a lower price. ;)

    Agree but it's rare that a "make an offer" coin on eBay is reasonably priced but I guess it's theoretically possible.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @MasonG said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @droopyd said:
    I'll always take advantage of the "make on offer" feature on eBay, I usually offer 20% or so below ask, sometimes it's accepted, sometimes countered at about 10% off and then I'll buy it most of the time.

    I agree with this buying strategy. When I see the "make an offer" option, I always assume the seller is willing to take less than his ask price. It would be foolish not to negotiate a lower price.

    Not necessarily, if the coin is already reasonably priced and you buy it while somebody else is fooling around negotiating for a lower price. ;)

    Agree but it's rare that a "make an offer" coin on eBay is reasonably priced but I guess it's theoretically possible.

    I don't know about "rare". Half my sales are at the listed price even though I accept offers and I regularly buy coins using eBay that I turn around and resell for a profit.

    Just sayin'. :)

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    telephoto1telephoto1 Posts: 4,749 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2023 10:09AM

    There are indeed occasional BIN bargains, but there is a huge cadre of buyers who hunt theses on the regular, much like a school of sharks waiting for the injured minnow... so unless you are there at the right time you won't ever see these (except in Completed sales). If it's listed as BIN without the Make Offer option attached and has been on the site longer than 12 hours, it's a safe bet it's priced above market or something's wrong with it.
    Edit for clarity.


    RIP Mom- 1932-2012

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