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Update-grades/Trueviews-Are HK-402 Alabama Pan Pac 1915 So-Called supposed to have a lacquer finish?
Mr_Spud
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I’m going through my jar of raw coins looking for a couple more to submit to PCGS this week at Long Beach. I have 8 vouchers and want to use them all at once. I’ve had this really nice looking MS HK-402 for about 12 years that I’ve always been afraid to submit because it looks like it has some kind of varnish looking finish. Does anybody know if this is normal for this one and if they straight grade like that? Here’s a quick picture I just took so you can see what I’m talking about.
Mr_Spud
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I think it will straight grade.
This one is a PCGS MS63.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/38400801
Thanks!
Mr_Spud
This is a Whighthead and Hoag piece. While they used many different surface finishes over the years, this glossy, antiqued finish is not uncommon. It should straight grade, IMO.
Great piece! Be sure to get a TrueView!
Nice post. It's worth noting that while Whitehead & Hoag will often simply place their name in the field, in this particular case, they've cleverly worked it into the ribbon.
That’s cool, I never noticed the words on the ribbon before. Here’s my coin again, only I corrected the tint to make it look like the color in hand and put in a black background. It’ll be fun to compare my picture with the trueview when I get it
Mr_Spud
Acceptance of the finish will depend on the familiarity the authenticator has with the medal (but should not be a problem). The other question will be if he/she can tell an original as opposed to the 1963 restrikes more commonly seen nowadays. The medal in the OP appears to be a 1963 restrike at first blush but final judgement would depend on an in-person inspection.
I do not know if our host uses a dedicated grader for tokens and medals but from results seen over time I tend to doubt it. ATS has used dedicated graders in the past but more recently has used varying personnel as needed (I am told). Your HK-402 will probably get into a holder at either service as a number of 1963 strikes already have.
What is the convention on slabbing the restrikes? Do they get a different HK number? Do they get the same HK number but with a "restrike" note? It's worth noting that the 1973 Ford pieces by Johnson don't have a separate HK number but are noted with "1973" and "restrike".
One interesting situation with So-Called Dollars is that two die pairs were both assigned to HK-364 due to a lack of photos in the catalog. Only later were they distinguished by the addition of a new HK number, but by then the two die pairs had been assigned several times already.
That’s interesting about the restrikes, I never knew there were restrikes for this one. I wonder how to tell an original from a restrike 🤔
Mr_Spud
@tokenpro said: I do not know if our host uses a dedicated grader for tokens and medals but from results seen over time I tend to doubt it. ATS has used dedicated graders in the past but more recently has used varying personnel as needed.
I remember when Brian Silliman did all the Exonumia at NGC, it was nice knowing who was grading things when I'd make a submission. He was also at most of the large shows with NGC and could be reached via phone. How I long for the "good old days" of years past.
The presence or absence of die gouges, rust marks and chips in the scrollwork under the 1915 date is the first area to check. Some time back I had a discussion with author & friend Bill Hyder about how they "tidied up" the Alabama PPIE dies before the 1963 strikes with mostly subtle differences being the result. I believe that Hyder & Shevlin mention the restrikes in one of their books. Up to this time I have not seen either service make mention of the restrikes on their holders (but So-Calleds are not of great interest to me).
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/11862121
A So-Called Dollar and Slug Collector... Previously "Pioneer" on this site...
A So-Called Dollar and Slug Collector... Previously "Pioneer" on this site...
Back to the OP question about "lacquer" coating and "antique" finishes, it seems that some medals had this done as part of the manufacturing process. Two that come to mind because I like the designs are HK-452 and HK-674. The HK-452 is high relief and I have seen some which aren't lacquered, either it was optional or a collector removed the coating, but it seems unlikely that collectors separated from each other over time would all coat their medals. The HK-674 is actually silver-plated bronze but they all have that old look. There are other medals in the catalogue that are similar but I'm not as familiar with them.
Thanks. I was at the Long Beach show yesterday and I showed the picture of my so-called dollar to Jeff Shevlin and Bill Hyder and they confirmed that mine is one of the restrikes. They also said that sometimes NGC won’t slab them with the lacquer on them but usually they do, they thought the same would be the case with PCGS too, but that both typically slab the restrikes the same way as originals.
Mr_Spud
It’s interesting that the surface finish is so similar between the originals and “restrikes”. They are close enough that I would think that even minor differences in appearance could simply be production variance.
What is the primary source indicating that there are 1963 restrikes? The info seems specific enough that it doesn’t need to be questioned, but there are a lot of myths in our hobby that don’t get questioned. I have zero references regarding SCDs, so it’s possible that it is widely known!
Here's mine, purchased before I had knowledge of restrike vs original strike, this is a restrike:
Commems and Early Type
I dunno, but Jeff Shevlin and Bill Hyder told me all about it yesterday and today at the Long Beach show. Jeff Shelvin said he used to work at the company that made the restrikes. I think he said Gallery Mint, but only about 80% sure I’m remembering that right. I bought Mr. Shevlin’s and Mr. Hyder’s latest book which talks about it too on this page
Mr_Spud
If the lacquer bothers you, I would think an acetone bath would remove it with no detrimental effect on the metal. Cheers, RickO
@Mr_Spud said: I bought Mr. Shevlin’s and Mr. Hyder’s latest book which talks about it too on this page.
They might "talk about it" in the book but they sure don't say much. Absent any sort of documentation someone else could offer the suggestion that there was a horde of pieces that were previously unknown, earlier strikes with clean dies.
I'm not saying there aren't restrikes because I have no way of knowing. But with what is stated in the book I am led to believe that every "original" HK-402 MUST have those die chips, which means they happened before the first medal was struck. That seems unlikely. Listed as an R5 in the 2nd edition yields about 200 medals extant with NGC showing 79 graded. So the R5 should probably be an R6.
Great discussion @tokenpro @GoldenEgg and @Maywood.
I agree with needing to understand the primary source for attributing these as restrikes from 1963. Do we have information that the striking was done then, or is that when they were discovered? Is there any primary evidence like documented photos or text from that period or is it based on recollection?
That's very interesting if Jeff used to work at the company that made the restrikes. If that's the case, it would be great to know more on this.
Bill Hyder here addressing the comments about references to the restrikes.
Let me correct one misunderstanding from the conversation referenced above. It got somewhat garbled. Jeff did not work for the company that made the restrikes. He did work for Medallic Art Co. and that discussion was in reference to medals being lacquered as a standard part of the manufacturing process.
Now for the restrikes. Hibler & Kappens So-Called Dollars published in 1963 noted the Alabama state dollars were very rare and they valued them at $137.50, a very high price for SCDs at the time. The 1964 TAMS Journal Vol. 4, No. 2 ran an article explaining why Alabama SCDs were now relatively common and inexpensive due to a large number of restrikes. To quote:
"The recent restrikes are naturally in BU condition, but they do not 'feel' right nor do they look right. Know your dealer and have him authenticate your purchase."
Jeff published a brief article explaining the difference in the TAMS Journal in 2014. After 50 years, collectors had forgotten the restrike issue and it was no longer obvious as to which was the restrike. Jeff and I sat down with the now common pieces and a few pieces we knew had pedigree to pre-1960. In addition, the Alabama dollar is pictured in Kenney's 1953 Coin Collector's Journal So-Called Dollars issue in 1953. All Alabama SCDs that pre-date the notice of restrikes have the die gouges.
Look carefully at the restrikes. The die polishing has partially erased parts of the scrolls making them thinner and less distinct. These are the restrikes. We have not observed any Alabama SCDs with bold scrolls and no die chips. Those with die chips are the original state of the dies.
I hope this clears up the references for how we identified the restrikes which are now a common SCD and virtually all slabbed pieces are restrikes ca. 1963-64 using polished original dies.
Thanks @Bsktmkr Bill for clarifying things about the restrikes. It was getting jumbled in my head when I was trying to remember what was said about them and the company that Jeff was talking about.
Mr_Spud
PCGS graded it as MS63 with no mention of it being a restrike. They didn’t seem to mind the lacquer. Here’s the Trueviews
Mr_Spud