SCOTT ROLEN IS IN THE HOF
ElvisP
Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭
When are they going to change it to the hall of pretty good?
4
ElvisP
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The past five years the Hall has enshrined Fred McGriff, Jim Kaat, Gil Hodges, David Ortiz, Lee Smith, and Harold Baines (who would be out of place in a "Hall of Above Average") and Rolen is the one who makes you ask this?
Hall of Fame is such a joke.
And Pete Rose is out!
I'm going to take up for Scott Rolen. He is one of the very best 3rd basemen to ever play. The only 3rd basemen to have more gold gloves are Brooks Robinson, Mike Schmidt, and Nolan Arenado.
His WAR is 70.1 which puts him WELL into HOF territory and puts him past these guys -
Tony Gwynn
Eddie Murray
Pudge Rodriguez
Ryne Sandberg
Ernie Banks
Miguel Cabrera
Duke Snider
Willie McCovey
Dave Winfield
Jackie Robinson
Harmon Killebrew
Vladimir Guerrero
Willie Stargell
NOBODY is arguing that those guys shouldn't be in.
Rolen's glove at 6' 4" and 245 lbs was something to behold. His bat alone wouldn't get him enshrined but it was good enough to complete the entire package. I believe he is more than deserving. And this is coming from someone who generally thinks that the HOF has too many mediocre players.
Shane
Put me in the camp that believes Scott Rolen is a fine choice for the Hall of Fame.
Scott Rolen - Career Statistics
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Very good player. Great glove.
Too much inconsistency in the voting. Nettles numbers, (and glove), sans BA, compare as well but no one wants him in the Hall.
Well deserved. Rolen was an absolute wizard in the field and put together a very nice career at the plate as well.
Glad he's in. The HoF is subjective (which makes it interesting), and I don't have an issue with any of the recent inductees.
Rose, Bonds, Ramirez, Sosa, McGwire, Clemens, Kent, Canseco, Schilling, alex rodriguez
All are well ahead of Rolen (maybe Kent and Canseco are close too him), Most people have heard of Mcgwire Bonds, Ros and Clemens, most have not heard of Scott Rolen. Fine player, he's just in the nobody knows him category.
His cards will bare this out also. Baines, Raines, Oliva, Billy Williams, Santo, Kaat ( and many more) are in most people's common bins. If i had a 5000 count box of just these plus rolen, i couldn't get more $10 for it.
Rolen is probably the 10 - 15 best third basemen in history, which is fantastic. Just not what one would consider legendary/HOF material.
Rose, Bonds and AROD are all top 15 players of all-time probably. Clemens is certainly one of the top 5 pitchers in the last 100 years. These, ladies and gentlemen, are your true HOFERS that everyone has heard of.
I did think, based on recent history, that Rolen would get in, though. Congrats to him, a fine player and good dude.
This means Buster Posey is guaranteed a spot, right?
As a Buster homer, I hope so.
I would say Arenado right now would be greater than Rolen. One of the guys on the telecast said it best - it seems like the BBWA is looking for reasons to put people in, in light of the lack of no-brainer HOFers (ignoring the PED guys).
Yep and it dilutes the Hall's importance.
Meh….good for Rolen. Above average player in the same camp as McGriff, Ortiz (known PED user) and Lee Smith. No major impact on the overall game, just played it the right way for a long time.
Until the HOF lets in the legendary icons that drove fans into the seats to marvel at their ability (Rose, Bonds, Arod, Clemens, McGwire), the HOF will continue to be a two-faced joke in most folks eyes. All of the players I just listed drove fans to the seats before and after their transgressions. The HOF’s job is not to play omnipotent gatekeeper and let some PED users in while keeping others out. It is to elect those that played the game at the very highest level in each era so the fans can celebrate their sports legends.
In defense, though, of the baseball HOF, it is still more exclusive of all the hall of fames. Although they have become more inclusive of late, it is still the greatest of the hall of fames, IMO.
Looking at those players, its more of an indictment of the WAR stat as the ultimate measure than of Rolen's candidacy for the Hall of Fame. Rolen was a very good player but not an elite feared player. One top 10 finish in the MVP voting throughout his career. Did not lead in any offensive category ever. Really 5 All-Star appearances (Check 2005 and 2011) and just one Silver Slugger.
IMO he hasn't done enough yet. As long as he doesn't drop off the ide of the earth, he's got a good chance, but he probably needs three more very good years or five solid ones.
Posey is a tricky case. If I had to guess I'd say the BBWAA says no and then he has to duke it out with the likes of Salvador Perez in the Committees.
I have no problem with WAR. It values defense and baserunning, not just traditional hitting stats. I am a believer in both traditional stats and newer stats like WAR, ops, and ops+. Those may not be perfect metrics, but it certainly beats a measure based solely on how many all star games the fans voted on or MVP awards that writers voted on.
I just think the whole picture should be viewed. I watched Rolen play 3rd base for the Cardinals for many years and he was steller!
Shane
War is tool for part of the entire picture but it's thrown around like it's the only thing. He was a great fielding Third Baseman Really high end complimentary player.
Yeah, Posey is tricky. He's definitely hurt by the lack of longevity. His career mirrors Thurmon Munson's in terms of numbers and awards, although Buster I think has more accolades than Munson. Where Yadier is a lock based on defensive prowess and longevity, Buster has an argument based on his accomplishments (including getting a lot of credit for that perfect game Cain threw). If Yadier wasn't in the picture, he probably would have ended up with a few more gold gloves, which makes his argument more comelling. He's not a lock, though.
For Arenado, I just think if Rolen gets in based on his defensive prowess and WAR (which is aided by longevity), Arenado could be considered better right now based on his accolades. Certainly a few more years of production and Arenado's stats would be indistinguishable against Rolen's, as well as no less than 10 gold gloves.
As soon as there was more than 1 person in the HoF it became diluted. It will always be diluted to some because entry is so subjective. I like that it's that way, and the type of players that get in varies and always is changing.
It's the toughest Hall to get into, and more inducted is better as far as I'm concerned. I also don't really care that much either way about all the arguments for/against.
Looks to me like he had 7-8 great years and about 10 average or below average ones.
Seems to have missed quite a bit of games, kind of low on total plate appearances.
I think if it's going to become the norm to put players that were merely very good and played for a long time in, a guy like Rolen has to get in.
Rolen is a Sabremetric HOF'er... not a an school HOF'er.... he never led the league in anything offensively ~ his best stat ~ 4th in the MVP one year...OPS is bullying very nice players into the HOF... its a shame. 2000 hits and 300 homers DO not cut it regardless of what position you play on the field.... that's my take anyhow.
At least he had some nice looking cards if nothing else.. xd
Sometimes I think people forget that it’s the Baseball Hall of Fame, not the Baseball Stats Hall of Fame. There are no statistical benchmarks for automatic entry despite their being implied benchmarks. And despite what everyone wants it to be all about, it is not all about hitting statistics.
@ScoobyDoo2
I think it’s the opposite - Scott Rolen is an old school pick. You can point to the statistical shortcomings on his batting register (I’ll get to that in a minute) and even if that point is conceded, he was still outstanding on the other side at third base. One of the best not just during his time in the league but all time. When you consider that and then look at his totals, he starts to resemble what he actually was - a complete player. An upper echelon defender with 96 R, 25 HR, 102 RBI, 9 SB and .281 career 162 game average is a pretty spectacular player by any measure. Now, I don’t think he beats down the door like the guys who garnered multiple MVPs to get in but I also don’t think that is a requirement, either. Consider that of all the third basemen to ever play, he is widely regarded as top 10 and that it is a difficult and important position to fill.
There are obviously great baseball players who aren’t in the Hall of Fame. For each, there is a reason or reasons. People may not like the reasons but you can always find out the real reasons why if you want to look around and hear the truth but, again, it’s not about straight statistics and never has been.
After all, even the inaugural class had significant snubs that nearly included George Herman Ruth.
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Rolen is deserving. There are many players more deserving who fell off the ballot quickly for no apparent reason. That’s what bugs me, I get that it’s subjective, but Harold Baines and Bruce Sutter being in, while Kenny Lofton, Bret Saberhagen and David Cone aren’t? Not to even mention the obvious steroid guys and the guys who were linked with little or no actual evidence.
https://www.foxnews.com/sports/pete-rose-again-asks-hall-fame-consideration-letter-mlb
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When you compare him to Rolen though: Both have RoYs, both 7x all-stars, Rolen 8x GG/1x SS and Posey has 1x GG and 5x SS, but then Posey has a batting title, an MVP, and is a 3x World Series winner.
Rolen was in the MVP running at 4, 14, 20 and 24 in various years. Posey was at 1, 6, 9, 11, 14, 20 and 21.
Posey is also a career .302 hitter. Not to mention catcher is the toughest position to play.
I think Posey is just has way more accomplishments.
What stands out to me is that not one of those stats is bolded. He never once led the league in anything.
>
So Ozzie Smith wouldn’t be in your hall of fame?
There are a very few guys arguably a little better than Rolen who fell off quickly for no apparent reason. Nettles had four years and Dwight Evans three, so I'm going to say your list of possibles is limited to Whitaker, Grich, Lofton, Buddy Bell, Randolph, Kevin Brown and Reuschel. I think it's hard to make a case that any of those were better than Rolen except Whitaker and Grich, and neither is much better by almost any measure.
Not quite fair to compare Saberhagen and Cone to Sutter because they fundamentally play different positions. Say rather Sutter in while (for example) Wagner, Nathan, Tom Gordon, Quisenberry out, and Kaat and Morris (or if you must use the BBWAA Hunter) in while Saberhagen and Cone out.
BTW, I completely agree with the above, but I wouldn't start with Lofton, Cone, or Saberhagen. There are better choices. I'm also fine with those three and the four relievers out, but we should stop putting vastly worse players in.
While gold gloves have been mistakenly awarded, eight doesn’t happen by accident. The easiest way to say it is the bold for Scott Rolen comes in the field. Having been in my prime watching years before he debuted and seen him play his whole career, I think some of this issue is his defense is really not getting enough credit. It’s the hot corner and he was the best glove at the position in the National League for a very long time.
All I’ll say is this: people tend to underrate defense in baseball - especially when judging a career - but it’s often the difference between winning and losing.
I’m a Yankees fan and our shoddy defense has been a big problem in the Judge era; he’s the only guy (along with Rizzo) who is a plus defender. To win games, especially in the postseason, you’re defense needs to be sharp. The Yankees have been anything but…
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Scott Rolen is one of the ten best third basemen in MLB history. That says Hall of Famer, to me.
All you see on sports casts now are the betting odds, it’s everywhere…let him in
Wow…from the article…
“ Rose had admitted he continues to bet on baseball, which has plagued him and his reinstatement hopes, but the Reds will open a BetMGM sportsbook in Great American Ball Park next year.”
How mlb can reconcile this in their brain is beyond me
I'm surprised there is some uncertainty with Posey. I assumed high % first ballot all day long. MVPs, Titles, leadership and positive fan / press vibe.
Look a little deeper at Pete Rose. It’s hardly the gambling that keeps him out…that was just the reason that he AGREED TO when he was put out to pasture AND accepted his lifetime ban.
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Wheaties, I am torn when it comes to Rose. I am from Columbus and my Dad and I used to love the guy, but when he repeatedly lied it made us rethink our stance. I wonder if he understood all of the ramifications when he agreed to the lifetime ban? Did he understand it included the HOF?
I think it's fair to say that if you looked a little deeper at all of the current HOF's you could uncover some dirt on about 10% of them.
I am a firm believer in a much stricter HOF or having a special section for the true greats. There is an old saying that if you have to ask or question whether a player is in or deserving of the HOF then they probably shouldn't be in.
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Pete Rose did just about everything the right way on the field and just about everything the wrong way off of it. However, he blurred the lines between the two - no one else - and he has lied too many times to believe anything he says at this point.
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The lies just kept going and going, and almost everyone knew he was guilty.
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From 1936 - 1965, a 30 year period the HOF did not elect members in 7 of those years.
From 1966 - 2023, a 56 year period the HOF did not elect members in only 1 year, 2021.
It's like they can't help themselves, they have to have someone almost every year. I am sure it's for attendance, hype, etc.
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Rose knew exactly what he was agreeing to.
Do a little research if you want to find out what kind of disgusting deviant he was.
Do I want Rose over dinner? Do I want him to watch my grandkids? Hello no! Do I want him on my team in the 60's and 70's? Hell yes!
Should I do internet research? I will take a hard pass. I do not have the time to go down some weird, internet wormhole and then have to try to decide what is real and what isn't.
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No. It doesn’t require much ‘internet’ research just the regular kind where you look up all the very legitimate articles from very legitimate sources from July/August of 2017 and about what he admitted.
No rabbit holes - promise. In fact, the headlines are probably enough.
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Don't bother. You don't want to know the truth.
It's not "internet research" it's the Dowd Report. When Rose found out what was in it, he couldn't wait to agree to a lifetime ban, as long as the report wasn't published.
I'm glad to hear the love for Posey. The reason I don't think he's a shoe-in is because his longevity, career numbers, and accolades are nearly idential to Thurman Munson, who is not in the hall, and he played in the New York market.
Maybe what hurt Munson, but helps Posey is when you compare their counterparts in the era they played. Munson played in the same general era of Bench, Carter, and Fisk. Buster's main counterparts were Yadier and Joe Mauer. So, you have Munson in the same group as three of the top 4 guys in WAR all-time, whereas Buster's counterparts are great, but not at the Bench/Carter/Fisk levels.
Put Posey and Munson both in! I think Simmons was penalized for being compared to Bench too. Bench just overshadowed every catcher for 20 years. Munson should be there and Posey too.
Munson was my idol as a kid. I could go on......tragic end.
But, IMHO Posey is more deserving if you had to pick 1....
Everything else notwithstanding, I, and almost certainly you, have no ability to influence a game when I bet on it. In the early to mid '80s, Rose did. IMO it makes a huge difference.
It's not about wanting to know the truth, it's I just don't care enough about Rose anymore.
IMHO it's always messy when people go online to judge/summarize someone as a "disgusting deviant" after they read a report.
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