Baseball Cards from the Depression Era- The focus is on players worthy to be remembered

coinkat

Picked up the 1933 Goudey cards for both- "Bing" Miller and Travis Jackson. Both cards are worn but survived as a product of the Great Depression

coinkat

Sadly that apparently we need a refresher course as to the line ups for Philadelphia A's championship teams from 1929-31 and the NY Giants teams that made their way to the World Series

DBesse27

Are you pouting that nobody responded to your previous post? I for one never saw it until now. Do you have pics of the cards?

coinkat

Not pouting at all... just trying to go beyond the usual mentality that exists here. And it seems any effort to bring big names back to a discussion is a lost cause. There are many great players that simply should not fall through the cracks. There are so many others beyond the two I mentioned. My post is merely a reminder that MLB history deserves more.

daltex

Probably better for the Sports Talk forum unless you want to show the cards.

coinkat

Sadly posting this on the Sports Talk Forum would likely produce a similar... if not worse outcome.

daltex

@coinkat said:
Sadly posting this on the Sports Talk Forum would likely produce a similar... if not worse outcome.

IMO, Miller was nothing special and Jackson is a mistake (typical Committee pick) for the HoF. Really no reason to choose him over Vern Stephens, and, to go to another era, Tejada and Garciaparra are better. To go to another different era, Campaneris and Fregosi were far better, and I don't hear any outrage that Bert Campaneris is outside looking in.

coinkat

And we now have the anticipated outcome...

dallasactuary

OK, I'll ask. What "outcome" did you want when you posted the names of two "meh" players from 100 years ago in the Trading Cards forum without pictures of their cards? Apparently, there was something that someone could have posted that, when it wasn't posted, meant that "we" needed a refresher course in something or other, and for the life of me I have no idea what that might be. Bing Miller and Travis Jackson aren't terribly interesting, but their cards certainly could be. Actually, Travis Jackson is possibly the worst postseason hitter in MLB history, so that's sort of interesting. But Bing Miller? I got nothin'.

ArtVandelay

Before Bing Miller even touched a major league baseball he spent a year in the WWI trenches fighting in France. He started his professional baseball career a first as a pitcher but after an arm injury became a position player. He made the bigs after some contractual issues kept him away at the age of 26. For the next 12 years he hit .315, 1802 hits, 109 home runs, and nearly 400 doubles and a 100 triples.

He won 2 world series rings and was a key member of one of the greatest teams to ever step foot on the field. The 1929-1931 Athletics were so good that the Murders Row Yankees considered the greatest Yankee team managed to be an average of 15 games back of the first place Athletics each of those seasons. Cochrane, Foxx, Simmons, Bing Miller were the key hitters for that team.

It should be mentioned that the first year back in an A's uniform in 1928 Connie mack had assembled one of the craziest rosters ever seen in the history of the game. The roster includes Mickey Cochrane, Joe Hauser (The minor league Babe Ruth), second baseman Max Bishop (career .423 on base % which is 17th all time just ahead of Shoeless Joe Jackson), an outfield that consisted of Ty Cobb, Al Simmons, and Bing Miller. Backups included a 20 year old Jimmy Foxx, infielder Jimmy Dykes, Tris Speaker, and Eddie Collins. On the mound they had probably the greatest lefty ever in his prime Lefty Grove as well as 6 other pitchers who had 150+ wins in their career.

The point being, Bing Miller's baseball career while long forgotten deserves the somerespect .

graygator

I always liked the color on Jackson’s 33 Goudey.

82FootballWaxMemorys

@coinkat said:
Sadly that apparently we need a refresher course as to the line ups for Philadelphia A's championship teams from 1929-31 and the NY Giants teams that made their way to the World Series

^ How many games of theirs did you attend?

@ArtVandelay said:
Before Bing Miller even touched a major league baseball he spent a year in the WWI trenches fighting in France. He started his professional baseball career a first as a pitcher but after an arm injury became a position player. He made the bigs after some contractual issues kept him away at the age of 26. For the next 12 years he hit .315, 1802 hits, 109 home runs, and nearly 400 doubles and a 100 triples.

He won 2 world series rings and was a key member of one of the greatest teams to ever step foot on the field. The 1929-1931 Athletics were so good that the Murders Row Yankees considered the greatest Yankee team managed to be an average of 15 games back of the first place Athletics each of those seasons. Cochrane, Foxx, Simmons, Bing Miller were the key hitters for that team.

It should be mentioned that the first year back in an A's uniform in 1928 Connie mack had assembled one of the craziest rosters ever seen in the history of the game. The roster includes Mickey Cochrane, Joe Hauser (The minor league Babe Ruth), second baseman Max Bishop (career .423 on base % which is 17th all time just ahead of Shoeless Joe Jackson), an outfield that consisted of Ty Cobb, Al Simmons, and Bing Miller. Backups included a 20 year old Jimmy Foxx, infielder Jimmy Dykes, Tris Speaker, and Eddie Collins. On the mound they had probably the greatest lefty ever in his prime Lefty Grove as well as 6 other pitchers who had 150+ wins in their career.

The point being, Bing Miller's baseball career while long forgotten deserves the somerespect .

Ok, but same and more can be said about so many other players in history. Trading card forum that skews heavily towards stuff from the last 40 years seem like wrong venue to me. Of course if the Original Poster presented pics of some cards that might be a start...

coinkat

How many games of theirs did you attend?

Is this a serious question?

Sadly I missed the careers of both players because I was not born yet. But that does not preclude me from acknowledging the accomplishments even though the majority seem to be content with ignoring it. I missed FDR's Inaugural address in 1933 and the greatness associated with that seems to remain intact.

And maybe... just maybe... we spend some time and appreciate players that we never had the chance to see and understand the stories behind their careers that helped shaped MLB to make it America's Pastime.

coinkat

@ArtVandelay

exceptional post

daltex

@ArtVandelay said:

He won 2 world series rings and was a key member of one of the greatest teams to ever step foot on the field. The 1929-1931 Athletics were so good that the Murders Row Yankees considered the greatest Yankee team managed to be an average of 15 games back of the first place Athletics each of those seasons. Cochrane, Foxx, Simmons, Bing Miller were the key hitters for that team.

I'm not going to say that WAR is everything, but those three years Miller was 8th, 10th, and 10th in WAR on his team, which is a strange definition of "key player". His OPS+ was 116, 96, 95 which is, um, not good for a right fielder, especially one who is supposed to be a "key hitter".

82FootballWaxMemorys

@daltex said:

@ArtVandelay said:

He won 2 world series rings and was a key member of one of the greatest teams to ever step foot on the field. The 1929-1931 Athletics were so good that the Murders Row Yankees considered the greatest Yankee team managed to be an average of 15 games back of the first place Athletics each of those seasons. Cochrane, Foxx, Simmons, Bing Miller were the key hitters for that team.

I'm not going to say that WAR is everything, but those three years Miller was 8th, 10th, and 10th in WAR on his team, which is a strange definition of "key player". His OPS+ was 116, 96, 95 which is, um, not good for a right fielder, especially one who is supposed to be a "key hitter".

In that 1929-1932 Lineup with 8 position players and 1 pitcher, Miller was the 8th most important hitter. Quite probable Miller got some nicer pitches to hit due those around him in the lineup. To his credit Miller took advantage of it but how much "respect" should that logically command 93-94 years later?

Now, what about Fred "Dixie" Walker I have a 1934 Goudey. My raw is not scanned so here is a stock image:

Very similar lifetime stats to Miller, but Walker's WAR is 33% higher. Seems as if that should garner some "respect"

dallasactuary

Bill James ranks Miller as the 79th best RF, a little behind Jeff Burroughs and a little ahead of Sixto Lezcano. What separates Miller from these, and many other, forgettable players is that Miller had much better teammates. If I want to discuss the Big Red Machine, I will not kick it off by dropping Gary Nolan's name. If I want to discuss Gary Nolan, I will not be surprised if nobody else wants to join in the discussion.

ArtVandelay

Dixie Walker was a great ball player as well. Had he played more consistently in his first 6 years he'd probably have had 3000 hits.

I'd definitely jump in on the Gary Nolan talk!

ArtVandelay

My turn to bring up a guy.

Cecil Travis.

At just 27 years of age he already had nearly 1500 hits, 350 extra-base hits, a career batting average of .327, .381 on base %, and coming off the best year of his career hitting .359 with 39 doubles 19 triples, and 101 rbi's. He was on his way to becoming one of the greatest shortstops to play the game ever when WW2 happened. Unlike many ballplayers who served away from the actions, he spent nearly 4 years in the war including such battles as the Battle of the Bulge and the Battle of Bastogne where he nearly lost his toes to frostbite. He had surgery which saved his feet but the damage to tissue and ligaments severely impacted his balance and speed. Amazingly, he went back to the front line after surgery to continue the fight. He was also one of the Battling Bastards of Bastogne which went up against Nazi forces that were

Here is a guy that should be in the hall of fame.

coinkat

Agreed- should be in the HOF

82FootballWaxMemorys

@ArtVandelay said:
My turn to bring up a guy.

Cecil Travis.

At just 27 years of age he already had nearly 1500 hits, 350 extra-base hits, a career batting average of .327, .381 on base %, and coming off the best year of his career hitting .359 with 39 doubles 19 triples, and 101 rbi's. He was on his way to becoming one of the greatest shortstops to play the game ever when WW2 happened. Unlike many ballplayers who served away from the actions, he spent nearly 4 years in the war including such battles as the Battle of the Bulge and the Battle of Bastogne where he nearly lost his toes to frostbite. He had surgery which saved his feet but the damage to tissue and ligaments severely impacted his balance and speed. Amazingly, he went back to the front line after surgery to continue the fight. He was also one of the Battling Bastards of Bastogne which went up against Nazi forces that were

Here is a guy that should be in the hall of fame.

3/4 the WAR of Harold Baines in half the year played!

But without the HOF Vet Committee support of 2 time convicted drunk LaRussa

82FootballWaxMemorys

@coinkat

Perhaps rename or request from mod, if not possible, to rename this topic to something like "Cards of Ballplayers who should not be forgotten by history"

1951WheatiesPremium

Here’s some great baseball players from 1930…

coinkat

I was able to edit and change the title- Sadly

"Cards of Ballplayers who should not be forgotten by history but ignored by The Trading Cards and Memorabilia Forum" would not fit

Nathaniel1960

PROMETHIUS88

How about this guy for a 1930's interesting player?? Great story.
Not my card.

82FootballWaxMemorys

@PROMETHIUS88 said:

How about this guy for a 1930's interesting player?? Great story.
Not my card.

A True American hero!

Had a interesting way of prepping for the Playing season:
_
To prepare for the 1928 season, Berg went to work at a lumber camp in New York's Adirondack Mountains three weeks before reporting to the White Sox spring training facility in Shreveport, Louisiana. The hard labor did wonders for him, and he reported to spring training on March 2, 1928, in excellent shape._

dallasactuary

@82FootballWaxMemorys said:
3/4 the WAR of Harold Baines in half the year played!

And this, in a nutshell, is why the HOF admitting mediocrities like Harold Baines can't be condemned too strongly. Yes, there is a decent case that Travis was better than Harold Baines. But there is no decent case that he was better than Rico Petrocelli or Dave Concepcion, and there is no decent case that he was half as good as Bert Campaneris or Jim Fregosi. WAR has Travis as the 65th best shortstop, Bill James has him at 29th. I think WAR is being too hard on him and James too soft, but no matter where you look all you find is evidence that he is, at best, the 10th best shortstop not in the HOF. The list of players better than Harold Baines not in the HOF is literally in the hundreds; if being better than Harold Baines becomes a meaningful sign that a player deserves to be in the HOF, then the HOF as we know it is dead and gone.

GreenSneakers

If Travis had a parallel rainbow refractor you totally would have gotten the desired vows and responses.

1951WheatiesPremium

@coinkat

You need to working on writing better titles.

😁

coinkat

Great story with Moe Berg- surprised that a Studio hasn't tried to obtain the rights to make a film

daltex

@dallasactuary said:

@82FootballWaxMemorys said:
3/4 the WAR of Harold Baines in half the year played!

And this, in a nutshell, is why the HOF admitting mediocrities like Harold Baines can't be condemned too strongly. Yes, there is a decent case that Travis was better than Harold Baines. But there is no decent case that he was better than Rico Petrocelli or Dave Concepcion, and there is no decent case that he was half as good as Bert Campaneris or Jim Fregosi. WAR has Travis as the 65th best shortstop, Bill James has him at 29th. I think WAR is being too hard on him and James too soft, but no matter where you look all you find is evidence that he is, at best, the 10th best shortstop not in the HOF. The list of players better than Harold Baines not in the HOF is literally in the hundreds; if being better than Harold Baines becomes a meaningful sign that a player deserves to be in the HOF, then the HOF as we know it is dead and gone.

Well, you know this of course, but others may not: WAR will always favor players who can hang around adding even minimal value. That's why WAR values, for example, Jim Kaat or Jamie Moyer higher than Sandy Koufax. I haven't dived deep into James' rankings, but I suspect he doesn't give enough credit for longer careers. It's sort of like comparing Bobby Orr to Ray Bourque, if you'll permit me to change sports. No question that Orr was better/more valuable than Bourque for his first nine years, but then Bourque was able to contribute at a high (League top 7 defenseman) level for the next twelve while Orr had almost no value, and none at all for the last 9, so Orr's shifts were effectively covered for by a replacement level player. An extreme example, and perhaps one not really replicated in baseball, but it's hard to find a way to treat both a short- and a long-career fairly.

If you'll permit me to compare a shortstop to an outfielder, oh, wait, we already did, Travis is clearly superior to Tommy McCarthy: https://stathead.com/tiny/qKCR2 In fact, by the standards above, if we were going to enshrine everyone better than Tommy McCarthy, Baines would have been a no-brainer.

Now, of course "better than McCarthy" isn't and has never been the standard for HoFers, but the entire point is that he was enshrined in 1946. even the shameful Frisch era was far, far in the future. None of this is to suggest that Baines, or Jack Morris, belongs in a Hall, or at least one that excludes Paul O'Neill and Reggie Sanders, or Steve Rogers and Carlos Zambrano.

We've just got to stop pretending that the enshrining of vastly inferior members is in any way a new thing.

dallasactuary

@daltex said:
I haven't dived deep into James' rankings, but I suspect he doesn't give enough credit for longer careers.

We've just got to stop pretending that the enshrining of vastly inferior members is in any way a new thing.

Yes, when James ranks players how that player did in his best five years, especially if they're consecutive, absolutely swamps everything else. For a long career to matter very much, it has to be a long career full of very good seasons. A long career full of bad seasons won't help at all and could, in theory, drop the player down the list.

And no, mediocrities joining the HOF is nothing new. What I pray does not become new is a "better than Baines" standard, and to that end I think pointing out the absurdity of Harold Baines (and Jack Morris and George Kelly, and Tommy McCarthy, etc.) being in the HOF should be done relentlessly.

daltex

@dallasactuary said:

@daltex said:
I haven't dived deep into James' rankings, but I suspect he doesn't give enough credit for longer careers.

We've just got to stop pretending that the enshrining of vastly inferior members is in any way a new thing.

Yes, when James ranks players how that player did in his best five years, especially if they're consecutive, absolutely swamps everything else. For a long career to matter very much, it has to be a long career full of very good seasons. A long career full of bad seasons won't help at all and could, in theory, drop the player down the list.

And no, mediocrities joining the HOF is nothing new. What I pray does not become new is a "better than Baines" standard, and to that end I think pointing out the absurdity of Harold Baines (and Jack Morris and George Kelly, and Tommy McCarthy, etc.) being in the HOF should be done relentlessly.

I couldn't immediately come up with a really good example, but I think this will make my point. Surely there is some point where a Tommy John career passes a Dwight Gooden one.

And I completely agree with your second paragraph, if I understand it correctly, but there have always been mediocrities being enshrined, and it has never become the standard. But I'm much more willing to accept the occasional Catfish Hunter/Jim Rice/David Ortiz than the continual parade of McCarthy/Kelly/Morris/Baines/Hodges/McGriff. Very, very occasionally the Committees select a player who was somehow overlooked by the BBWAA, but for every Ted Simmons there are a dozen Jim Kaats and a Bobby Grich or Kevin Brown who doesn't even merit consideration. I'm willing to live without Grich, Brown, Whitaker, Dwight Evans in the Hall if it means that we have a Committee who meets only every five or ten years to consider those like Bruce Bochy, Curt Flood, Tommy John, Theo Epstein whose primary contribution was off the field. I'd even be OK with considering excluded players every twenty years because that way the Bottomley/Cummings/Deacon White leakage would be tolerable.

dallasactuary

@daltex said:

I couldn't immediately come up with a really good example, but I think this will make my point. Surely there is some point where a Tommy John career passes a Dwight Gooden one.

Yes, eventually, provided the long-term pitcher stays at least "good". One of James' weights is career Win Shares, but another is Win Shares per season. A long-term pitcher who isn't good will rack up more Win Shares, but his Win Share rate will fall rapidly. A good long-term pitcher will rack up lots more Win Shares and his Win Share rate will drop much more slowly.

I know I sing the praises of Bill James quite often, but I do not agree with a lot of his rankings, and it's mostly because I think he gives too much weight to peak and not enough to career.

ArtVandelay

Lefty O'Doul.

He was good friends with my great-uncle and his frequent bowling partner. I grew up hearing stories about Lefty so I am a bit biased but he is easily in the top 10 most overlooked Hall of Famers. If you factor in his stats in the PCL which was near equivalent to MLB quality with his major league stats he has 2200+ hits 200+ home runs and a .351 batting average. He also had 42 wins and a 3.85 career ERA.

Then you factor in that he was one of the key influences in bringing baseball to Japan. He is a member of the Japanese Hall of Fame. His frequent exhibitions with some of baseball's biggest stars helped create Japan's love for the game. He also frequently stayed in Japan for months at a time mentoring and teaching the sport to Japanese players. Not only was his impact huge on making baseball the biggest game in Japan but after WWII he played a part in helping to restore relations between Japan and the US after WW2.

ArtVandelay

Tommy John is definitely long overdue for the Hall. His issue was always that his win loss percentage and the fact he played a long time. That is a bit deceiving in my opinion.

If you look at his totals from 1965 to 1982 you get the following.

235 wins 160 losses 3.03 ERA 43 shut outs and 6-3 with a 2.65 era in playoff appearance. That alone warrants hall of fame attention.

when it comes to pitchers not in the hall of fame his name goes to the top of the list.

gorilla glue 4

@ArtVandelay said:
Lefty O'Doul.

He was good friends with my great-uncle and his frequent bowling partner. I grew up hearing stories about Lefty so I am a bit biased but he is easily in the top 10 most overlooked Hall of Famers. If you factor in his stats in the PCL which was near equivalent to MLB quality with his major league stats he has 2200+ hits 200+ home runs and a .351 batting average. He also had 42 wins and a 3.85 career ERA.

Then you factor in that he was one of the key influences in bringing baseball to Japan. He is a member of the Japanese Hall of Fame. His frequent exhibitions with some of baseball's biggest stars helped create Japan's love for the game. He also frequently stayed in Japan for months at a time mentoring and teaching the sport to Japanese players. Not only was his impact huge on making baseball the biggest game in Japan but after WWII he played a part in helping to restore relations between Japan and the US after WW2.

I use to love going to his Hofbra in the city.

coinkat

If we are talking about the same place, O'Doul's was about one or two blocks towards Market Street from the St. Francis Hotel in Union Square. The place had all kinds of cool baseball memorabilia on the walls back in the Day- I haven't been there in 15 years.