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Should TrueViews Include the Grade?

DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,690 ✭✭✭✭✭

I like the idea of seeing the grade on TrueViews. Do you?

Should TrueViews Include the Grade?

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2023 8:05PM

    What about other items on Cert Verification?

    1. PCGS #
    2. Date, mintmark
    3. Denomination
    4. Variety
    5. Mint Error
    6. Region
    7. Grade
    8. Pedigree
    9. Holder Type
    10. Population
    11. Pop Higher

    I personally wouldn't mind seeing Variety and Pedigree, which is also on the slab. This is an example of what I've done in the past with Variety and Pedigree:

    It would also be great to show "Mint Error" like the following:


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    P0CKETCHANGEP0CKETCHANGE Posts: 2,243 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The grade should never be shown.

    Let the coin speak for itself. Cert verification has all of the other info, if needed.

    Nothing is as expensive as free money.

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The grade should always be shown.

    I can't imagine a reason not to have the grade, so why not. As far as the other info, I would say if customer wishes it on the TV, then a fee should deter most.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2023 8:08PM

    @P0CKETCHANGE said:
    Let the coin speak for itself. Cert verification has all of the other info, if needed.

    TrueViews today are like art and that is desirable to me. Just the cert number so go ahead and enjoy the coin.

    To add more info, the natural end state is to make the TrueView contain all the info on Cert Verification and/or the slab insert. I can see this being useful as well, but detracts from the art perspective.

    I can see both approaches having benefits for different purposes.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2023 8:11PM

    @jesbroken said:
    I can't imagine a reason not to have the grade, so why not. As far as the other info, I would say if customer wishes it on the TV, then a fee should deter most.
    Jim

    Why have a fee for other info but not grade? If there is a fee, shouldn't the fee before everything equally, including grade?

    For example, for one coin, the grade might be more important, but for another, the Mint Error designation may be much more important.

    And for grade, I'd also love to see the Pop and Pop Higher. For rare items, I tend to post Pop Lower which would also be great to add for rare pieces.

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The grade should always be shown.

    I feel the grade should be expected as it is a photograph of the coin you sent in to be graded. Now if you paid extra to have the variety on the holder, then that should be free. Any info on the holder should be on the TV, but info not normally on the holder should be an extra fee if at all.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2023 8:39PM

    @jesbroken said:
    I feel the grade should be expected as it is a photograph of the coin you sent in to be graded. Now if you paid extra to have the variety on the holder, then that should be free. Any info on the holder should be on the TV, but info not normally on the holder should be an extra fee if at all.
    Jim

    For some coins like toners and errors, I can see the the grade not being desirable if the goal is to show the visual distinctiveness of the coin. More generally, the grade may be less desirable the more unique the coin is.

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    DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,690 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    And for grade, I'd also love to see the Pop and Pop Higher. For rare items, I tend to post Pop Lower which would also be great to add for rare pieces.

    Population numbers are always changing and sometimes they go down. A grade stays the same unless a coin is submitted for regrade (and a new TV).

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2023 8:25PM

    @DisneyFan said:

    @Zoins said:
    And for grade, I'd also love to see the Pop and Pop Higher. For rare items, I tend to post Pop Lower which would also be great to add for rare pieces.

    Population numbers are always changing and sometimes they go down. A grade stays the same unless a coin is submitted for regrade (and a new TV).

    There could be a date on the TrueView which is always current when viewed on Cert Verification. If someone downloads an image to post elsewhere, the date would show when that Population was valid.

  • Options
    P0CKETCHANGEP0CKETCHANGE Posts: 2,243 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The grade should never be shown.

    @Zoins said:

    @P0CKETCHANGE said:
    Let the coin speak for itself. Cert verification has all of the other info, if needed.

    TrueViews today are like art and that is desirable to me. Just the cert number so go ahead and enjoy the coin.

    Yes, exactly. It is that aesthetic experience that would be diluted.

    Even when you look at a slab in person (say, at a show), you immediately scan the label—what grade, variety, is there a CAC sticker, etc. Before you can even look at the coin, your brain has devised preconceived notions about it.

    Keeping the TrueView devoid of the extraneous information preserves a purity of experience of seeing the coin first, which in my (seemingly unpopular) opinion is a healthy thing in a hobby that’s often dominated by plastic.

    Sometimes less is more.

    Nothing is as expensive as free money.

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    TomBTomB Posts: 20,727 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The grade should never be shown.

    It's already got the cert number on it, so I voted to leave off other information. If folks want the information then it is a fairly trivial thing to find it.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The grade should never be shown.

    Only possible for more mechanical errors to occur and it would probably slow down the turn around times.

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Showing the grade should be optional.

    It would be nice to have the option, though it is easy enough to get the information. Cheers, RickO

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    WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 8,969 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The grade should never be shown.

    Let the coin speak for itself.

    Further info can be garnered with little effort.

    Wouldn't want the TrueView to look 'cluttered', either.

    “I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

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    ironmanl63ironmanl63 Posts: 1,971 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The grade should always be shown.

    I would like to see the grade on a trueview. If I am interested in purchasing a coin I always do a deep dive before doing so. I will find the grade and much more. If not looking to buy I still always wonder what the grade is. I actually think it would be awesome to see the grade with out searching.

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    PhilLynottPhilLynott Posts: 881 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There's a simple reason they don't - it gets them a ton of extra site traffic. Clicks on their website are $$$$

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    messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Showing the grade should be optional.

    I'll go one step further and say that everything should be configurable. Thinking about a series of TV templates that allow you to choose among them for the layout you want when you download. If you want to hide the cert number, choose that layout. If you want the identification of the coin large and the grade and cert number small below that, choose that one. If you want the First Strike™ logo interleaved in the background with the PCGS logo for eligible coins, choose that one. Don't like the font, pick a different one. I have a series of scripts that customize composite layouts for different people I've shot coins for, so surely PCGS could do something similar.

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ok. i think have the solution. trueviews come with more than 1 image sometimes right?(look for the arrow)

    perhaps an integration into one of the other image slots could contain more info?

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    dsessomdsessom Posts: 2,212 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have always felt that the slabs should indicate somehow if the coin has TrueView images, because they will always be there once they are made. To me personally, having TrueView images is worth paying a premium on a coin.
    Sure, we can just scan them with the phone app and find out pretty quickly, but just having an indicator somewhere on the slab label sure would be a plus, in my mind.

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dsessom said:
    I have always felt that the slabs should indicate somehow if the coin has TrueView images, because they will always be there once they are made. To me personally, having TrueView images is worth paying a premium on a coin.
    Sure, we can just scan them with the phone app and find out pretty quickly, but just having an indicator somewhere on the slab label sure would be a plus, in my mind.

    perhaps a $1-3 option to include some indication on the back would be nice. (maybe a dot left of the pcgs coin number?) there are times when viewing a lot of coins when knowing if the coin already has a TV could sway a purchase one way or the other, especially since people do pay $10-15 from photographers and they'd know that already having a TV could save them a bit. something along those lines.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    TurtleCatTurtleCat Posts: 4,589 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think having a slab shot always made for every serial number is more useful than having the grade on the TV. Maybe the variety designation would be nice?

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    winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,055 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’m continually trying to learn to grade. As such, if I see a high resolution photo in a post, I try to learn from that, and I suspect many others do too. As such, whenever I post a True View and don’t have a decent slab photo to accompany it, I always list the grade and if it has a CAC sticker so others can learn.

    Sure, we can take the time to look up the cert number to see the grade, and see if it has a CAC sticker, but many of us would rather spend our limited free time looking at more posts. Call me lazy, but I wish others posting TrueViews would always let us know the grade right then and there, since it’s not likely PCGS will change their policy as a result of this poll.

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
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    davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The grade should never be shown.

    grades are fluid and it would be confusing to have TruViews of same coin with multiple grades

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    winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,055 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @davewesen said:
    grades are fluid and it would be confusing to have TruViews of same coin with multiple grades

    It takes just a few seconds to plug the cert # into the PCGS tool on the Home Page to determine the current grade if one comes across a duplicate. As such, that uncommon scenario is not a problem.

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2023 7:56PM

    @winesteven said:

    @davewesen said:
    grades are fluid and it would be confusing to have TruViews of same coin with multiple grades

    It takes just a few seconds to plug the cert # into the PCGS tool on the Home Page to determine the current grade if one comes across a duplicate. As such, that uncommon scenario is not a problem.

    If that's not a problem, then why is not having the grade on the TV a problem?

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2023 7:40PM

    @TurtleCat said:
    I think having a slab shot always made for every serial number is more useful than having the grade on the TV. Maybe the variety designation would be nice?

    I like the idea of having a "SlabView" for every coin, to accompany the TrueView.

    An interesting thing, is this one has slab photos on a TrueView background:

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    winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,055 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @winesteven said:

    @davewesen said:
    grades are fluid and it would be confusing to have TruViews of same coin with multiple grades

    It takes just a few seconds to plug the cert # into the PCGS tool on the Home Page to determine the current grade if one comes across a duplicate. As such, that uncommon scenario is not a problem.

    If that's not a problem, then why is not having the grade on the TV a problem?

    Because the vast majority of the time a coin with a True View photo does not change grade once the TV is produced. Contrary to that, ALWAYS having to go to the PCGS lookup tool on the homepage adds up to a lot of time, but the reality is most people most of the time won’t spend that time to look it up. Therefore, having the grade on the TV helps a bit to teach grading in a quick and effortless fashion!

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2023 7:59PM

    @winesteven said:

    @Zoins said:

    @winesteven said:

    @davewesen said:
    grades are fluid and it would be confusing to have TruViews of same coin with multiple grades

    It takes just a few seconds to plug the cert # into the PCGS tool on the Home Page to determine the current grade if one comes across a duplicate. As such, that uncommon scenario is not a problem.

    If that's not a problem, then why is not having the grade on the TV a problem?

    Because the vast majority of the time a coin with a True View photo does not change grade once the TV is produced. Contrary to that, ALWAYS having to go to the PCGS lookup tool on the homepage adds up to a lot of time, but the reality is most people most of the time won’t spend that time to look it up. Therefore, having the grade on the TV helps a bit to teach grading in a quick and effortless fashion!

    One thought is that having the grade on TrueViews could bring back similar issues to having multiples of the same coin on CoinFacts with different grades, but perhaps in a way that's impossible to control.

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    winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,055 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The coins on CoinFacts typically are based on cert numbers that are known, in addition to sale prices. Easy for their program to recognize when that cert number is entered in a sale, just like their program recognizes when YOU go to register a cert that is currently registered to someone else. The program avoids that error by preventing it to be added to your set, and that works successfully.

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • Options
    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2023 10:08PM

    @winesteven said:
    The coins on CoinFacts typically are based on cert numbers that are known, in addition to sale prices. Easy for their program to recognize when that cert number is entered in a sale, just like their program recognizes when YOU go to register a cert that is currently registered to someone else. The program avoids that error by preventing it to be added to your set, and that works successfully.

    The CoinFacts issue I was referring to was to show different grades for the same coin. There's no problem if grades are not on the TrueView. If they are, it could be easier to trace different grades if TrueViews are posted on sites like the Forums, IG, etc.

  • Options
    davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The grade should never be shown.

    @winesteven said:

    @davewesen said:
    grades are fluid and it would be confusing to have TruViews of same coin with multiple grades

    It takes just a few seconds to plug the cert # into the PCGS tool on the Home Page to determine the current grade if one comes across a duplicate. As such, that uncommon scenario is not a problem.

    I look at my past GoldShield submissions and occasionally see coins where certs are no longer valid. Did they get crossed to NGC and certs returned? Did someone crack out and return inserts? Was it determined the coin is counterfeit? Did a coin turn and get bought back by PCGS? Did new owner succeed in a resubmission?

    I have a few variety attributions with re-holder and the cert number stays the same just added description line.

    What is the most logical explanation for 'cert not valid' from a coin in one of my past submissions?

  • Options
    winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,055 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2023 8:14PM

    @davewesen said:

    @winesteven said:

    @davewesen said:
    grades are fluid and it would be confusing to have TruViews of same coin with multiple grades

    It takes just a few seconds to plug the cert # into the PCGS tool on the Home Page to determine the current grade if one comes across a duplicate. As such, that uncommon scenario is not a problem.

    I look at my past GoldShield submissions and occasionally see coins where certs are no longer valid. Did they get crossed to NGC and certs returned? Did someone crack out and return inserts? Was it determined the coin is counterfeit? Did a coin turn and get bought back by PCGS? Did new owner succeed in a resubmission?

    I have a few variety attributions with re-holder and the cert number stays the same just added description line.

    What is the most logical explanation for 'cert not valid' from a coin in one of my past submissions?

    The most likely scenario of what you describe is the coin was sent in for a regrade, where PCGS then assigns a new cert number and KNOWS to invalidate the prior cert number. You mention the other legitimate possibilities, but those occur less often - crossing to NGC, and crackouts where the owner notifies PCGS of the old cert number, and Restoration (that will always get a new cert number if accepted for Restoration). A coin originally authenticated by PCGS and subsequently found to be counterfeit in theory is possible, but that’s grasping for straws. But the likeliest overall scenario is the coin today is in the same grade as it was when the TrueView was taken (keep in mind many coins in older holders never had TrueViews).

    But with EVERY one of those scenarios, there’s absolutely NO DIFFERENCE/HARM if the old TrueView had the grade on it or not! The benefits of showing the grade on the TrueView at the time the photo was taken outweigh any disadvantages!

    Finally, if you look at the total coins you currently have with TrueViews, along with the total coins you’ve sold with TrueViews, and look up all the old certs of those sold ones, I believe the vast majority of those present and former coins you’ve had are still the same grade. There are many (but not a majority) of people like @ricko that buy but rarely sell coins. When I read posts about collectors who participate in trying to upgrade their existing coins via crackout or regrade, the vast majority of replies is that people just keep the coins as is, without playing those games. Sure, there are plenty of crackouts and regrades, but my point is those are the minority. And as I noted above, even in those cases, I still do not see the harm in having the grade on the TrueViews in those scenarios!

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996

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