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How did this 1857 small date Large Cent wind up in a PCGS AU55 let alone CAC approved?

RLSnapperRLSnapper Posts: 516 ✭✭✭✭✭



Am I missing something? Technically the coin may be AU but there is a lot of gunk between stars 3 and 5. More concerning is the obvious problem with the E in CENT. I guess the experts at our host and CAC must have felt is is a planchet flaw not PMD...but to get a green bean with such a distraction in the focal point of the reverse makes me wonder. It is priced below recent auction prices and is BIN. Opinions please.

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,405 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't care for it because of the reasons already stated. I'll let a CAC fan buy it. ;)

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If it's an au55, I can see why they graded it as such. As for the distractions, they may not be as noticeable in hand as they appear. Imaging can often bring out flaws much more than in hand. They seem to not be problematic in hand enough to reduce the grade or prevent a green bean.

    As they say buy the coin not the holder. If you don't like it, don't buy it. They obviously bother you enough to post about them so if I were you, I'd pass.

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    PizzamanPizzaman Posts: 226 ✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2023 8:38AM

    I don't know what's going on on the E but the grade reflects the degree of wear not gunk.

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    TreemanTreeman Posts: 418 ✭✭✭

    I don't care for it either, but, it is a good example of what you see in a picture being different than in hand. The upper pic seems to show a coin with much more wear than the Trueview photo, and, it is the exact same coin...

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    ARCOARCO Posts: 4,311 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "Gunk" happens when a coin circulates and is not cleaned. I like the original look personally. As for the "E", well I have seen a lot of coins with CAC stickers that I feel are way overgraded, problematic or just downright hideous. In this case, it looks like a minting defect, which IMO, makes the coin even more unique looking.

    Some people like widgets, I like coins with character.

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    Project NumismaticsProject Numismatics Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like it well enough. I wouldn’t pay up for it, but at a slight discount to other examples, I’d pick it up. The E is distracting. The gunk doesn’t bother me.

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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,547 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is that a hit on the nose or a die chip?

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    Is that a hit on the nose or a die chip?



    does this help? maybe too close perhaps.

    https://images.pcgs.com/TrueView/41331987_Max.jpg

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Don't know what caused this, maybe a planchet flaw? Or PMD? Most all have noticed it in the small photos but it stands out greatly enlarged, as most flaws/damage does.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,519 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't question PCGS or CAC. I don't like it so I just wouldn't buy it.

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    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,681 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don’t care for it either, but I’m not opposed to seeing it with that grade and sticker, I see lots of CAC graded coins that I don’t care for, it doesn’t necessarily mean they’re wrong, they just don’t have the eye appeal or look that I like…

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    FrankHFrankH Posts: 773 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:
    It's a lightly circulated coin and I think the issues you pointed out are minor enough, such that I'm not bothered by the grade or the sticker. One thing I learned as a grader many years ago is that a coin can be accurately graded, but still disliked by a lot of numismatists. Or said differently, just because you dislike a coin, doesn't mean it's graded wrong.

    What about a numismavestor? >:)

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks Daniel. Excellent descriptive instructions as to the cause. I even noticed now that the bulges which had they been from an impact to the blank planchet would not have survived in detail after being struck. I appreciate it.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,547 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    Is that a hit on the nose or a die chip?



    does this help? maybe too close perhaps.

    https://images.pcgs.com/TrueView/41331987_Max.jpg

    Huh! I have no idea what that is.
    Great pic!

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,547 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jesbroken said:
    Don't know what caused this, maybe a planchet flaw? Or PMD? Most all have noticed it in the small photos but it stands out greatly enlarged, as most flaws/damage does.
    Jim

    Looks like circulation damage from the reeded edge of a silver or gold coin.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,147 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wonder what the thoughts and comments would be if this were posted w/o the slab grade and CAC sticker….

    Successful BST transactions with 170 members. Recent: Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    Is that a hit on the nose or a die chip?



    does this help? maybe too close perhaps.

    https://images.pcgs.com/TrueView/41331987_Max.jpg

    Huh! I have no idea what that is.
    Great pic!

    haha. thanks. love those MAX trueviews.

    perhaps @Floridafacelifter can shed some light. ;)

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    The_Dinosaur_ManThe_Dinosaur_Man Posts: 836 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like the coin despite the issues. Yes it has some dings and yes there are better examples for the date. I don't think I'd care to keep it entombed however. I feel like this is more for a casual collection than for a higher end set.

    Custom album maker and numismatic photographer, see my portfolio here: (http://www.donahuenumismatics.com/).

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    1madman1madman Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerguy21D said:
    I wonder what the thoughts and comments would be if this were posted w/o the slab grade and CAC sticker….

    AU details environmental damage whether you show me the slab label or not. Sell that ugly thing and don’t look back. Woof

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    burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RLSnapper said:

    >

    Am I missing something? Technically the coin may be AU but there is a lot of gunk between stars 3 and 5. More concerning is the obvious problem with the E in CENT. I guess the experts at our host and CAC must have felt is is a planchet flaw not PMD...but to get a green bean with such a distraction in the focal point of the reverse makes me wonder. It is priced below recent auction prices and is BIN. Opinions please.

    Curious where it is for sale?

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dcarr ... I am not taking exception to your explanation of the issue on the E, but just for a point of discussion, could that not have been caused by a struck through debris at minting? Thanks for your reply... Cheers, RickO

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    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 18, 2023 6:56AM

    As for the price it seems fairly within line of recent auctions less the last two, and about $150 less than cac guide. When not looked at blown up, the issues don't seem all that significant.

    If this is up someone's alley it seems like a decent buy, imo.

    @burfle23 I found it searching on eBay.

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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,547 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ricko said:
    @dcarr ... I am not taking exception to your explanation of the issue on the E, but just for a point of discussion, could that not have been caused by a struck through debris at minting? Thanks for your reply... Cheers, RickO

    As he said, there is metal displaced out beyond the original footprint of the letter. There was die steel there during the strike. THis has to be post-strike damage.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway ... Thank you... Cheers, RickO

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    telephoto1telephoto1 Posts: 4,742 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The nose thing is something I'd like to look at in hand but looks to be a die defect. The E is damage, plain and simple; the corrosion grew on the exposed metal in the gouge. This coin should not have straight graded, much less stickered.


    RIP Mom- 1932-2012

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