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“In-between” MS grades

JoeLewisJoeLewis Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭✭

When did the “in-between” MS grades start being used in the coin collecting community? I’m talking about 61, 62, 64, etc.

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    JoeLewisJoeLewis Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭✭

    The ANA originally just used 60, 63, 65, and 70, right?

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    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Day one? As far back as I can remember they have used them. Not frequently. Like the AU 53 grade, it doesn't get used much.

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    JoeLewisJoeLewis Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭✭

    As a 10-year-old, I helped out at a coin shop in 1984-85, and I mostly just remember words (UNC, CHOICE, and GEM).

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    PapiNEPapiNE Posts: 281 ✭✭✭

    I submitted quite a few coins this past year. None were 60 or 61. Plenty of 58 and 62/63.

    USAF veteran 1984-2005

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,943 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2023 8:40PM

    @JoeLewis said:
    As a 10-year-old, I helped out at a coin shop in 1984-85, and I mostly just remember words (UNC, CHOICE, and GEM).

    Yes. Back in the day they did that. But 1984 is a little late. The coin shop owner must have been an old timer. The ANACS photo certificates had "in between grades" and they date to before your coin shop experience.

    Edited to add: actually I can't find any MS64 photcerts from 1984. So it may have been shortly after that. I can find VF30 and AU55 from as early a 1981.

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    JimTylerJimTyler Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have a good idea this thread was brought about because of my ANACS cert. dated 1984 and my claim they didn’t grade MS64 in 1984. I remember clearly the time before use of the MS64 grade and the news that MS64 was going to start being used. Truthfully what I don’t remember is exactly when. I would really like to see a ANACS photo cert. from 1984 (or earlier) with a MS64 grade on it. I don’t believe they exist. According to this info it might have been when PCGS began.

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    SapyxSapyx Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To the best of my knowledge, the ANA grading standards, originally used by ANACS when they were still a subsidiary of the ANA in the 1980s, used all 9 steps between MS-60 and MS-70.

    Original ANACS certificates were always split graded: MS-65/64 was a coin with an MS65 obverse and an MS64 reverse; MS-65/65 was a coin that was graded MS65 on both sides.

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    JimTylerJimTyler Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2023 8:20PM

    OK show me a split grade from 1984 with MS64 that also blows my theory.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,943 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JimTyler said:
    OK show me a split grade from 1984 with MS64 that also blows my theory.

    I can't find any from 1984. You may be correct.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,943 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JimTyler said:
    OK show me a split grade from 1984 with MS64 that also blows my theory.

    Here's an AU55 from 1981. So some "in between" grades were being used.

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    JimTylerJimTyler Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭✭✭

    55 is not an in between grade. AU 53 would be an in between grade. Keep trying.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,943 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JimTyler said:
    55 is not an in between grade. AU 53 would be an in between grade. Keep

    55 is an in between grade if you go back farther. There originally were not multiple AU grades.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,943 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JimTyler said:
    55 is not an in between grade. AU 53 would be an in between grade. Keep trying.

    The original Sheldon scale is almost 30 years older than the 1977 version you posted.

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    JimTylerJimTyler Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2023 8:56PM

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @JimTyler said:
    55 is not an in between grade. AU 53 would be an in between grade. Keep

    55 is an in between grade if you go back farther. There originally were not multiple AU grades.

    It’s in between 50 and 60 that’s about it. It was a standard grade. Just like MS63 was a standard grade if you don’t remember a time MS64 wasn’t used you ain’t old enough. I’m arguing 1984 ANA didn’t use MS64. I welcome getting proven wrong on that point.

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    JimTylerJimTyler Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2023 9:05PM

    I don’t care about Sheldon scales. Find an ANA photo cert from 1984 or earlier with the grade MS64 and you win.

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    JoeLewisJoeLewis Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @JoeLewis said:
    As a 10-year-old, I helped out at a coin shop in 1984-85, and I mostly just remember words (UNC, CHOICE, and GEM).

    Yes. Back in the day they did that. But 1984 is a little late. The coin shop owner must have been an old timer.

    Yeah. He was an older gentleman.

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    lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,462 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I recalled the 64 grades being from John Highfill and/or NSDR. So went searching and found this write up. I can not verify any of this and am just providing it as written.

    https://www.nsdr.net/2013/06/01/the-national-silver-dollar-roundtable-30-years-later-by-john-w-highfill/

    As early as 1975, there was only the MS65 grade listed in the Coin Dealer Newsletter (CDN) for Silver Dollars. In August of that year, the CDN started listing both the MS60 and the MS65 grades for Silver Dollars. At this time, the price differences between MS60 and MS65 could be nearly 3 times between the two grades.

    In September 1980, the CDN began listing the MS63 grade. This solved a lot of the disparities in the price fluctuations. But the differences were still substantial between the MS63 and the MS65 grades. The NSDR had its own “Pricing Guide” with its initial quarterly journal.

    (NOTE): The NSDR was first in implementing the MS64 grade pricing within the entire Silver Dollar prices. This landmark grade was board approved in November 1984. It was then introduced and first published in the National Silver Dollar Pricing Guide, Volume II, No 1, dated November 1984. We are very proud of this landmark numismatic accomplishment. The MS64 grade was later posted in March of 1985 in the Greysheet and remains to date.
    .
    .
    .
    However, you can go to this link and search old CDN and review when the CDN started using various grades.
    I am not sure how that would relate to when others might have started using them but is another piece of information.

    https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/publisherdetail/523465

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    JimTylerJimTyler Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2023 12:46AM

    Interesting. I read about Highfill first implementing the MS64 grade but didn’t know exactly when. My ANA cert. is dated 6/29/1984 and they approved the grade in November 1984 according to your info. Then it would have taken sometime for ANA to start using it. It appears when my coin was certified by ANA they were not yet using the MS64 grade. The whole point of this is that I have a coin graded MS63 by ANA dated 6/29/84 and there is no way that coin’s a ‘3’ by todays standards and was probably a head scratcher not calling it a ‘5’ back then.

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    JoeLewisJoeLewis Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭✭

    @JimTyler said:
    I have a good idea this thread was brought about because of my ANACS cert. dated 1984 and my claim they didn’t grade MS64 in 1984. I remember clearly the time before use of the MS64 grade and the news that MS64 was going to start being used. Truthfully what I don’t remember is exactly when. I would really like to see a ANACS photo cert. from 1984 (or earlier) with a MS64 grade on it. I don’t believe they exist. According to this info it might have been when PCGS began.

    I don’t know anything about the ANACS thing you’re talking about. I was just curious when every (60-70) MS grade started to be used.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,943 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JimTyler said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @JimTyler said:
    55 is not an in between grade. AU 53 would be an in between grade. Keep

    55 is an in between grade if you go back farther. There originally were not multiple AU grades.

    It’s in between 50 and 60 that’s about it. It was a standard grade. Just like MS63 was a standard grade if you don’t remember a time MS64 wasn’t used you ain’t old enough. I’m arguing 1984 ANA didn’t use MS64. I welcome getting proven wrong on that point.

    I'm not arguing the 64 point. But if you go back further, a lot of the "in between" grades didn't exist. Once upon a time, it was VG, XF,UNC of you go back into the 1940s. Grades have been proliferating ever since.

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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The never ending search for more and more money ...

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,436 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The widespread and established use of every mint state grade and the in-between grades such as AU53, AU58, XF45, VF15 etc originated with PCGS when they started slabbing coins in 1986.

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    robecrobec Posts: 6,605 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I seem to remember that @relicsncoins used to collect Anacs Photo certs. If anyone would know or have a copy of one it would be him. Hopefully he will chime in. I know I’ve seen a cert posted that had a mixed grade of 63 and 65, probably one of his.

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    robecrobec Posts: 6,605 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This Anacs holder was obviously made later than the Photo certs, but looks to be one of the older ones.

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    robecrobec Posts: 6,605 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JimTyler said:
    I don’t care about Sheldon scales. Find an ANA photo cert from 1984 or earlier with the grade MS64 and you win.

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    AtcarrollAtcarroll Posts: 343 ✭✭✭

    @JimTyler said:
    55 is not an in between grade. AU 53 would be an in between grade. Keep trying.

    We should totally start using AU54, who's with me?

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    JimTylerJimTyler Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2023 11:15AM

    @robec said:

    @JimTyler said:
    I don’t care about Sheldon scales. Find an ANA photo cert from 1984 or earlier with the grade MS64 and you win.

    Is there a date on the back ? else irrelevant. Probably from the time period of PCGS when dates were not used because they wanted their grading a constant no matter when it was graded. Yet they eventually changed holders (many times) which did date the period graded.

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    robecrobec Posts: 6,605 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JimTyler said:

    @robec said:

    @JimTyler said:
    I don’t care about Sheldon scales. Find an ANA photo cert from 1984 or earlier with the grade MS64 and you win.

    Is there a date on the back ? else irrelevant. Probably from the time period of PCGS when dates were not used because they wanted their grading a constant no matter when it was graded.

    No reverse, just saw it in an old post.
    I do have a copy of mine though it was dated 1986.


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    JimTylerJimTyler Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It’s a 1986 cent not a 1986 cert. although it couldn’t be a 1984 cert. can it ?

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    robecrobec Posts: 6,605 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JimTyler said:
    It’s a 1986 cent not a 1986 cert. although it couldn’t be a 1984 cert. can it ?

    I bought the coin from Devonshire coins in 1986, so yes, it was a 1986 cert. Of course I told you in my previous post that is was 1986, which implies it isn’t 1984.

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    JimTylerJimTyler Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wish I had the discipline to hold my coins that long, I would have some amazing stuff. I see a small profit and turn to putty.

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    relicsncoinsrelicsncoins Posts: 7,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2023 9:25PM

    @robec said:
    I seem to remember that @relicsncoins used to collect Anacs Photo certs. If anyone would know or have a copy of one it would be him. Hopefully he will chime in. I know I’ve seen a cert posted that had a mixed grade of 63 and 65, probably one of his.

    I have hundreds of them, I will look through them and see which one has the earliest 62 or 64 used. I'm pretty sure it was after the photos were in color.

    BTW, that 84CC registered to General Zod is mine.

    Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
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    relicsncoinsrelicsncoins Posts: 7,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My latest dated photo cert. is 5/8/86 It's still a black and white photo cert. The only photo certs that I have seen with grades other than 60, 63 and 65 have in color photos. None of my certs with in color photos have dates printed on them.

    Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions

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