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Shillings By Monarch (Updated 6/16/2023)

ClioClio Posts: 480 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited June 16, 2023 4:15AM in World & Ancient Coins Forum

I wanted to make a post about a set I've been working on and some comments on the progress so far.

I've been assembling for a few years now a set of shillings with 1 example for each monarch. I originally only planned to do milled but unlike other series the hammered examples don't go back terribly far. For the time being I am not getting a testoon or a commonwealth shilling. These are examples I could go into later but this set alone is a fairly substantial strain on my funds. My knowledge on these series can be limited as I am a type collector to start with. I suspect further down the road I will delve deeper into series but for now I usually go for the easiest type to find in high grade.

1549-1553 Edward VI

This past year I bid on two examples of Edward VI. I've looked at dozens, but I've tried to remain picky about the example I go for. The first I lost was one in an HA auction as I had to choose between two coins to commit funds to and I believe I picked the wrong one.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/great-britain/world-coins/great-britain-edward-vi-1547-1553-shilling-nd-1551-1553-ms61-ngc-/a/3099-31888.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

the second example I bid on was substantially lower grade but I thought I might make an exception for one with an interesting pedigree.

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1245543/Great-Britain-ND-1551-53-Silver-Shilling-of-Edward-VI-S-2482-PCGS-XF-45-604gms-Ex-Archbishop-Sharp-Collection

So I've been left empty handed for the time being. I try to tell myself not to be in a rush and more will come but I do still get worked up over it.

1558-1602 Elizabeth I

For Elizabeth I find all the portraits to be so poorly struck that I decided that I would endeavor to go for a milled example. Truth be told her portrait continues to be lacking on these. The first one I bid on was this example:

https://live.spink.com/lots/view/4-4Q8CY5/the-vanmeerbeeck-collection-elizabeth-i-1558-1603-mestrelles-milled-issue-large-size-shilling-8-november-1561-24-october-1561

I foolishly thought this was in my reach haha.

The second one here I actually bought from a dealer at the ANA. After a short stint of owning it I just felt disappointed with the strike and decided to let it go to a friend of mine who was interested.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/great-britain/world-coins/great-britain-elizabeth-i-shilling-nd-1560-1566-xf40-ngc-/a/232147-64502.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

1554-1558 Philip & Mary

I've only bid on a single one of these and wasn't able to secure it. Hammered continues to be my toughest area to learn and to price correctly. Here's the piece I bid on:

https://www.noonans.co.uk/auctions/archive/lot-archive/results/437648/?keywords=philip+and+mary&discipline=&category=&date_on=&date_start=&date_end=&lot_no=

1603-1624 James I

This is my first hammered Shilling I bought and potentially the source of my troubles. I really love it's surfaces and it's strike and centering. To find others to match continues to be a challenge. I bought this one raw off ebay.co.uk. Was very pleased with the purchase.

1630-1644 Charles I

I've looked at tons of these. They are very common but the portraits horribly struck. Not to mention issues with the flan as well. I bid on just 1 of these but wasn't confident it was the right one for me and didn't bid strong enough. I have debated getting a Briot to fill this slot which are lovely milled examples if you are not already aware of them. This is the hammered example I bid on:

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=5895&lot=1020

1660-1685 Charles II

Just a single coin I've bid one. I thought it was within my reach and bid very aggressively on it and still fell flat. Incredible ending price but the little I could research:

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-URM5F/great-britain-shilling-1663-london-mint-charles-ii-pcgs-ms-62

1685-1688 James II

Only one type for this monarch and a very difficult one to fill. As of yet I haven't purchased or bid on any James II examples.

1688-1694 William & Mary

A very difficult one to get and incredibly difficult in high grades. I paid up for an example from Australia thinking it was a tad higher grade. I am still pleased with it but doubt it will be the final iteration for my set.

1694-1702 William III

This one I've actually got 2 examples for. One I purchased in the UK in a 1700 NGC MS65 holder that is currently at PCGS:

The second one only just a week ago now at the FUN show. This 1697 I've known about for probably a year and went back and forth with the dealer until they finally decided to let it go:

1702-1714 Anne

No examples yet and none that I have bid on. One of my requirements is that there's not significant haymarking and they seem to be rife with it in the grades I am shopping for.

1714-1727 George I

This was a great one and done coin for me. I purchased this example with great luster and nice toning out of a ha auction in an NGC MS64 holder.

1727-1760 George II

This example is my favorite coin. I purchased it raw off ebay in 2019 for $220 and it's an outstanding example. I really couldn't ask for better.

1760-1820 George III

I am not sure I can say exactly why but for this Monarch I much preferred an example known as a Northumberland Shilling. This adds some undue cost but I had decided what I wanted and was able to get a great looking example from stacks. I did buy one other example raw but it was short lived as I was disappointed with it in hand and returned it.

1820-1830 George IV

This is one of my favorite designs to I had to have the 1821 type. I got this from HA late in 2021.

1830-1837 William IV

Many of these look exactly the same and it's difficult to find one that is a nice contrast to the others. I have only bid on one and lost the auction. The link to it is here:

https://bsjauctions.auctionmobility.com/lots/view/1-5L3DTA/british-coins

1837-1901 Victoria

This example I bid on twice! The first go around was here:

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1105939/Great-Britain-1872-Silver-Shilling-S-3906A-NGC-MS-65-from-photo

and without knowing it was the same one, the second time here:

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-YTRV7/great-britain-shilling-1872-london-mint-victoria-pcgs-ms-66

1901-1910 Edward VII

I've owned a few nice Edward VII shillings but this is certainly my favorite. A good friend of mine in Scotland sold it to me raw.

1910-1936 George V

I collect these by date so I've lots of examples to pick from. I chose the one I like the most with the most vibrant toning. Purchased off ebay raw and graded it.

1936-1952 George VI

I've had a handful of these and they are strange coins. Rarely found in gem and almost never found with any toning to speak of much less nice toning. I bought this raw for $10 through a friend of mine and have yet to find one I like more for my set.

1953-1970 Elizabeth II

I currently have a blast white MS66 for this slot. I am unsure how available toned examples are or if there's any other defining merit I can look for in these, other than just grade.

Anyway, that's the current state of the set. If anyone here ever comes across examples, they think would be well suited please do reach out I am always looking.

https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery

The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"

Comments

  • neildrobertsonneildrobertson Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's interesting that most of these coins were graded by PCGS within the past 3 years. There must not be much previously graded material circulating around.

    Or are we still in a situation where world grading is recent enough that older stuff hasn't started resurfacing in decent numbers?

    IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
    "Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me

  • BSmithBSmith Posts: 137 ✭✭✭

    Nice collection, I really like the Northumberland Shilling.

  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,194 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Some lovely toners, there. I think I like the William & Mary and George II pieces the most.

    Really, everything there is superb. You've obviously got a keen eye.


    Explore collections of lordmarcovan on CollecOnline, management, safe-keeping, sharing and valuation solution for art piece and collectibles.
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,665 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wonderful coins with an insightful and knowledgeable commentary. I agree most of your observations. I have been working on a similar project that I would describe more as a Shilling type set instead of by Monarch. You have selected some real quality examples- I am not able to select a favorite. I doubt that my shillings will make it to a registry set but never say never.

    The W&M shillings are very difficult to grade as the obverse relief is somewhat higher than the norm- a fully struck example is next to impossible to find. I still do not own one. The Northumberland is a nice example. What survived seems to have survived in a decent state of preservation.

    For the sake of completeness, consider adding a nice George II Young Head to your to set.

    Your commentary helps make the Forum what it is and should be- Well done

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,184 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very nice there. As a Vicky fan, would consider an early shilling of hers - 1840s vintage or so....

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • ClioClio Posts: 480 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @neildrobertson said:
    It's interesting that most of these coins were graded by PCGS within the past 3 years. There must not be much previously graded material circulating around.

    Or are we still in a situation where world grading is recent enough that older stuff hasn't started resurfacing in decent numbers?

    I have a theory that when grading became more prevalent a first wave happened where collectors with high end collections submitted a handful of their high end coins. These continue to be some of the highest graded in the pops and you can see the old auction records for them when researching. The next tier below those coins seemed to be left raw in collections, then a tier event below is a middling area where dealers subbed coins to sell but few were significant and mostly common. I think a lot of that middle ground, which is good material but more affordable for me, is still readily available raw and new examples are being graded everyday as they come to market. So either I, or whatever dealer got a hold of them, are submitting?

    @lordmarcovan said:
    Some lovely toners, there. I think I like the William & Mary and George II pieces the most.

    Really, everything there is superb. You've obviously got a keen eye.

    Certainly not without significant help and guidance from other more experienced collectors. I've shared many a photo to fellow collectors shot down over not being right for my set and told to be patient for the right coins to show up. I am in their debt.

    @coinkat said:
    Wonderful coins with an insightful and knowledgeable commentary. I agree most of your observations. I have been working on a similar project that I would describe more as a Shilling type set instead of by Monarch. You have selected some real quality examples- I am not able to select a favorite. I doubt that my shillings will make it to a registry set but never say never.

    The W&M shillings are very difficult to grade as the obverse relief is somewhat higher than the norm- a fully struck example is next to impossible to find. I still do not own one. The Northumberland is a nice example. What survived seems to have survived in a decent state of preservation.

    For the sake of completeness, consider adding a nice George II Young Head to your to set.

    Your commentary helps make the Forum what it is and should be- Well done

    Thanks very much for the high praise. I do have to say I was very tempted to do a full type set as you mentioned you are working on. I have ended up with several duplicates along the way and even with the GVI and EII Shillings it feels wrong to only have a UK or Scottish example. I did spend some time to try and formally compile a type list and contact PCGS about creating a registry for it. Especially since their current registry is a very odd and incorrect title.

    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/british-type-sets/british-denomination-type-sets/british-shillings-type-set-circulation-strikes-1660-1966/2883

    It is far from a type set and I named mine as correct as I can manage. The sets are just 1 shilling per monarch. My problem with the full type set is that it is very difficult to complete and I enjoy working on sets I can complete. I am also not sure what is considered a new type or perhaps just a major type set? Would I have to get a WIlliam III 2nd bust?

    @7Jaguars said:
    Very nice there. As a Vicky fan, would consider an early shilling of hers - 1840s vintage or so....

    I have debated branching out the closed collar issues to type as they are more manageable. Even then I would just be looking to get a Jubilee and Veil head. Is there a reason for the earlier young head being a different type? Or you just like the old ones?

    https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery

    The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,665 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2023 8:50AM

    Off hand, I am trying to recall the Victorian Young heads- I think there are 3 possibly 4 young head types with slight modifications. I suspect 7Jags would know without needing a reference.

    just looked... 4 young head types

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • Almost all the hammered shillings of this period are difficult to find with a good strike. Edward VI might be the best of them, but then his coins are often bent and scratched. His also have a couple of interesting busts. I think you could get a good James II gunmoney shilling fairly easily. At least the length of time it will take to find examples of the standard of your later shillings will give your bank balance time to recover.

  • bigmarty58bigmarty58 Posts: 1,996 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like your George V <3

    Enthusiastic collector of British pre-decimal and Canadian decimal circulation coins.
  • Bob13Bob13 Posts: 1,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2023 9:00PM

    Wonderful coins, thanks for sharing. LOVE the G2 and EdVII.

    Sounds like you aren't sold on the William and Mary, but I think it has a lot of appeal.

    Good luck with the rest.

    My current "Box of 20"

  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,184 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ah, a bit on Vicky shillings: 4 basic obverse Victoria heads. Most feel the first are best done although not quite as obvious a disparity as with the half crowns (earlier vs. later). I too feel this way, but will picture two MS66 coins - a first type 1839 and a fourth type 1882 - wherein the latter coin is a hammered strike and almost equals the first.

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,184 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ?Better first head 1838:

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • ClioClio Posts: 480 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2023 5:43AM

    @bigmarty58 said:
    I like your George V <3

    Thanks!

    @Bob13 said:
    Wonderful coins, thanks for sharing. LOVE the G2 and EdVII.

    Sounds like you aren't sold on the William and Mary, but I think it has a lot of appeal.

    Good luck with the rest.

    The George II is still my favorite for sure. I do like the William and Mary but it is difficult to have an XF coin among a good handful of MS examples.

    @7Jaguars said:
    Ah, a bit on Vicky shillings: 4 basic obverse Victoria heads. Most feel the first are best done although not quite as obvious a disparity as with the half crowns (earlier vs. later). I too feel this way, but will picture two MS66 coins - a first type 1839 and a fourth type 1882 - wherein the latter coin is a hammered strike and almost equals the first.

    I think I can see where you're coming from. The earlier portrait seems to have more curves and less stiff, like it was a more natural style than the newer one with the squared features.

    https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery

    The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,665 ✭✭✭✭✭

    congrats - wonderful additions

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • Bob13Bob13 Posts: 1,412 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The new ones look like great additions!

    My current "Box of 20"

  • YorkshiremanYorkshireman Posts: 4,487 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Super coins!

    Yorkshireman,Obsessed collector of round, metallic pieces of history.Hunting for Latin American colonial portraits plus cool US & British coins.
  • ClioClio Posts: 480 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2023 7:58AM

    This past thursday I braced myself for a very pricey item I decided to chase. A recent auction catalogue at Noonan's had some exceptional pieces and I carved out three that I wanted to bid on. I had over a month to prepare and along the way I decided I had to drop one from the to bid list and try and focus on what I thought would be the best fit pieces to my set.

    https://www.noonans.co.uk/auctions/archive/past-catalogues/703/catalogue/441797/?offset=80

    This lot ended up being the short straw. This piece is well struck and centered which is very difficult for Elizabeth to find but the surfaces look to have a very old cleaning and just not quite what I want in an example. As a final strike against it it was coming to auction before the big coin I wanted to chase.

    https://www.noonans.co.uk/auctions/archive/past-catalogues/703/catalogue/441000/?offset=80

    This outstanding James I shilling had a wonderful pedigree and immaculate surfaces. I have a James I already as shown above in a AU55 holder but this one was a step above. The only thing it didn't win at was the shape of the flan it was struck on. I bid what I felt was very aggressively but was unable to secure it. My max was £3,200.

    The last one I did manage to acquire for my collection. It fortunately was auctioned after the James I so I was able to adjust as needed.

    A lovely example and well struck portrait. For Charles I they are notoriously flat and lifeless. In addition the surfaces look to be in great shape and some light toning as well. I am anxious to see how it looks in hand. I suspect it's a high AU potentially low UNC example though those differences are less important I think in hammered coinage where strike, centering, and shape are all major aspects of the attractiveness of the coin.

    https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery

    The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"

  • ClioClio Posts: 480 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My apologies someone pointed out that the links in my comment were bad. They should be fixed now!

    https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery

    The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"

  • ClioClio Posts: 480 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In a whirlwind of purchasing, I have somehow completed the entire run of hammered shillings needed for my set. I bought 4/5 examples in 6 months which goes to show you just never know when the opportunity will arise. I purchased this Elizabeth I off stacks recently in a PCGS AU55 holder. Which as I shared in a recent post means that 4 of my hammered shillings are now graded PCGS AU55. A well-matched group.

    Yesterday I had my most recent purchase arrive a Philip & Mary Shilling. I wasn't anticipating being able to afford one so soon and my wallet wasn't either haha. But it was a great price for a lot of detail, well struck portraits and really honest surfaces from a serious notorious for tooling, rim filings and other maladies.

    https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery

    The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"

  • Beautiful collection. Congratulations on your newest additions.

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,665 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Amazing quality for the grade set- you have done very well putting this type set together- congrats

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • ClioClio Posts: 480 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @shirohniichan2 said:
    Beautiful collection. Congratulations on your newest additions.

    @coinkat said:
    Amazing quality for the grade set- you have done very well putting this type set together- congrats

    Thanks y'all! as always I appreciate the kind words.

    https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery

    The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"

  • goldengolden Posts: 8,961 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Beayutiful Anne Shilling!

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