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Does anyone repackage graded coins that come back 69 or lower

So I was at a coin dealer Saturday and I overheard a conversation about getting your OGP back from grading companies in case of a bad grade to repackaged the coins to sell raw. Maybe I'm not that cunning, but it never dawned on me to do that. Ironically I know now why people sell empty OGP on ebay. I didn't comment on this to the 2 people talking, but it made me for one thing nervous to buy raw coins from anyone besides the mint, but also are raw coins more valuable the grade 69?
For argument sake, let's use the example that the dealer brought up, low mintage coins it might be better graded 69, but say a 2021 gold ASE, is it worth more in raw form vs graded pf69? I didn't know anyone ever wanted the boxes back from the grading companies, sounds shady perhaps I'm wrong.

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    vplite99vplite99 Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Since I sell many raw coins, I have to say no. But I would not, that 69 plastic is still plastic.

    Vplite99
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    VasantiVasanti Posts: 448 ✭✭✭✭

    I believe that absolutely happens. I think dealers also have lower grade ASEs put into slabbed rolls.

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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not everybody collects slabbed coins, some people want them with their original packaging. It's no surprise they'd pay more for the coins that way.

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    U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 5,601 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Some people want the boxes back in order to have the complete packaging even if the coin is graded (collectors can be picky and want as much originality as possible).

    Some do crack 69 graded examples since raw can be worth more (in part because people think it still has the chance to grade 70).

    And while you can get some duds from raw purchases on eBay, you can run into the same direct from the mint (read all the threads over the years of the poor quality people have received from the mint). Many times you won't see the difference between a 69 or 70, so even if someone cracked a 69, it could be perfectly fine (and it could even grade 70 if tried again).

    I personally only cracked one US Mint MS 69 and that was to place into a dansco album for a set. I also cracked two Austrian MS 69s to try for 70s (registry set purposes where there were no 70s on the market and when they came up, they were very expensive). One of those 69s graded 70 while the other graded 69 again. I saw no difference among them. The 70 is still in my set while the 69 was sold in the holder (no cracking and selling raw).

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    Steven59Steven59 Posts: 8,290 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'll stick with 69 - anything else is kind of crappy

    "When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"

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    ChevyroseChevyrose Posts: 225 ✭✭✭

    Maybe unslabbed 69 sells better to people who think it will grade 70

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    NJCoinNJCoin Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2023 6:34PM

    @U1chicago said:
    Some do crack 69 graded examples since raw can be worth more (in part because people think it still has the chance to grade 70).

    This ^^^. The only grade worth chasing for a modern is a 70.

    A 69 is a guaranteed non-70, so it's typically worth less than an OGP coin that could theoretically be a 70. And, bottom line, the difference between a 69 and a 70 is so indiscernible that there is probably a decent chance that a cracked out 69 could be a 70 on a resubmission. So putting a 69 back in its OGP is really not a crime.

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    ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,323 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I thought OGP moderns sold for about MS69 price, maybe I am wrong, so I don't see the advantage here. Anyone purchasing a modern in opened OGP should assume it's been screened for potential MS70 grade.

    Collector, occasional seller

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I imagine there are some that crack 69 graded coins.. either for resubmission, or raw sales. I have never cracked a 69 graded coin. I just do not play the grade game, coin is what it is. If, and this is a big IF, I received a coin that was glaringly undergraded, I would resubmit for reconsideration. Borderline (my opinion vs. theirs), I would not bother. Cheers, RickO

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    johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    no, i dont expect every coin to come back like that, jmo

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    stawickstawick Posts: 469 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2023 10:10AM

    So ... this had me scratching my head a bit.
    I suppose this is possible when you have the mint send the coins directly to the TPGs for 1st strike or FDOI, and the packing box has been unopened, so they have all of the OGPs?

    The way I've been doing it (I'm all about modern proofs - as a reference point), and I checked with PCGS before I even started, is I send the coin in its air-tite capsule in a coin flip. I've been keeping the OGP boxes. Its been fine for over 200 coins submitted in 3+ years. And NO, I absolutely do NOT sell them on the bay. (I'm neither all that slim, nor shady. ;) )
    They even send back the air-tite's, that they dont destroy anyway. Think I got back ~97% of those.
    Why do I do this?? Dunno, think I'm becoming a box hoarder (Keurig, I "organize" stuff in those). :s
    I think the only one where they kept the packaging was when I sent in a Limited Edition Silver Proof set, to get the designation.

    I get a 1/10th oz AGE proof for my sis/bro in-law for Xmas every year, and have been getting them graded lately for them. I wrap the OGP with it but tell them they can dispense with the box and COA if they want, but its there.

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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,936 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The repackaging of coins that don't make the grade at the TPGs has been going on for a long time. Coin collecting today is all about making money for a large percentage of the participants and they do whatever they feel will bring in the most money.

    All glory is fleeting.
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    MetroDMetroD Posts: 1,935 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @stawick said:
    [...]
    I think the only one where they kept the packaging was when I sent in a Limited Edition Silver Proof set, to get the designation.
    [...]

    Sometimes, you have to send a sealed Mint shipping box to PCGS (e.g., FS designation after the cutoff date, a set designation, 'serialized/signed' COA, etc.).

    Admittedly, it has been some time, but I have always just added a note to my submission form asking for the return of any OGP that I wanted back. PCGS has always obliged, without charging anything extra.

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    stawickstawick Posts: 469 ✭✭✭✭

    @MetroD said:

    @stawick said:
    [...]
    I think the only one where they kept the packaging was when I sent in a Limited Edition Silver Proof set, to get the designation.
    [...]

    Sometimes, you have to send a sealed Mint shipping box to PCGS (e.g., FS designation after the cutoff date, a set designation, 'serialized/signed' COA, etc.).

    Admittedly, it has been some time, but I have always just added a note to my submission form asking for the return of any OGP that I wanted back. PCGS has always obliged, without charging anything extra.

    Confirms what I was thinking, thanks.

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    PeyroguyPeyroguy Posts: 96 ✭✭✭

    Glad to see there is still honest collectors still out there. I agree that when it comes to modern coins,especially ASE, that 70 or nothing. Plus, you all are quite right l, me personally I can't tell the difference between 69 or 70, makes me rethink of buying OGP from ebay, unless still in the shipping box

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    JoeLewisJoeLewis Posts: 1,904 ✭✭✭✭

    I don’t really see this as dishonest. Who’s to say that the resubmitted “cracked out 69” won’t come back as a 70?

    Also, people that need a 70 require slabs. BUT, there are plenty of collectors that don’t want slabs. They want the OGP. Cracking out the 69s and putting them back in original packaging serves that population just fine.

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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The mint doesn't guarantee the coins will grade as 70s. If you want a 70 in original packaging, examine the coin before buying it.

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    VasantiVasanti Posts: 448 ✭✭✭✭

    It’s no different than cherry-picking mint and proof sets.

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    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,425 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't see how cracking out a 69 coin would make anyone a profit. Ok say you have ASE in OGP that cost say $50. You send for grading paying shipping and grading fees. Well it comes back a 69 so you decide to crack it and put it back into OGP. Its still a coin that will sell for $50 but now you have more into the coin for the grading costs.

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

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    johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,085 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @gumby1234 said:
    I don't see how cracking out a 69 coin would make anyone a profit. Ok say you have ASE in OGP that cost say $50. You send for grading paying shipping and grading fees. Well it comes back a 69 so you decide to crack it and put it back into OGP. Its still a coin that will sell for $50 but now you have more into the coin for the grading costs.

    2021-D Morgan…

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    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,425 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @johnny010 OK so you buy a 2021D Morgan. Say I bought right now for $150. Then I send in for grading and it comes back a 69. Now I crack it out and put it back in OGP. Its back to being $150 coin but not its cost me more in shipping and grading fees.

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

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    nwcoastnwcoast Posts: 2,844 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2023 6:48PM

    I see this happening more often with sub 69 coins. They may not be common but they do exist.

    Edited to add: I don’t do this personally.

    Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014

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    johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,085 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @gumby1234 said:
    @johnny010 OK so you buy a 2021D Morgan. Say I bought right now for $150. Then I send in for grading and it comes back a 69. Now I crack it out and put it back in OGP. Its back to being $150 coin but not its cost me more in shipping and grading fees.

    No
    I bought the coin from the mint for $85. Four came back as 70s now selling for let’s just call it $850. Two came back as 69s selling for $150 (real numbers here). I see why some would break it out and try to resell higher than a 69 is fetching. I’ve watched this with the 2020 v75 gold 1 ounce as well where non graded sell for higher than a 69.

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    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,425 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @johnny010 OGP are selling for $150 right now some even less.

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

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    johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,085 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @gumby1234 said:
    @johnny010 OGP are selling for $150 right now some even less.

    Ok
    Market goes up and down. Not sure what they went for six months ago but I’ve seen it is my point. For sure I’ve seen this before.

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    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,425 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @johnny010 Yes markets always fluctuate, but my point is If you have a coin in OGP and the price is $100 then you get back a 69 and crack it to put it into the OGP again its now a coin worth $100 that you spent $130 or so to have. If the market remained the same. So you end up losing by cracking it out.

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

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    U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 5,601 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @gumby1234 said:
    @johnny010 Yes markets always fluctuate, but my point is If you have a coin in OGP and the price is $100 then you get back a 69 and crack it to put it into the OGP again its now a coin worth $100 that you spent $130 or so to have. If the market remained the same. So you end up losing by cracking it out.

    The original goal was a 70. Now that you have a 69, you want to cut your losses. If the coin sells better in a 69 holder, then that is how it will sell. If the coin is selling higher raw, then that is how many will sell it (crack out of the slab).

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    DeutscherGeistDeutscherGeist Posts: 2,990 ✭✭✭✭

    For reasons such as the ones that have been brought up, I favor buying directly from the the mint that produces the coins. I do not want to have a modern coin that has been "handled." Fingerprints, saliva from talking near a raw coin, and any manner of particles from the air can be trapped inside the coin capsule, which can affect the coin's appearance.

    If someone cracks out a PF69 coin, and puts it back in the OGP, that detail needs to be disclosed and part of the description if ever sold. Some collectors do not want coins that have been tampered with.

    "So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve

    BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
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    Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,615 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2023 5:44PM

    I don’t buy USM products from mint. So very few raw.

    No - I don’t do mod submissions. I have a number of TPG 69 coins. Would never crack and put back raw. Unnecessary, and would devalue the coins IMO. Plus buyers know the graded 69 coins authentic. The slabs take up less space in my case at shows vs USM material in USM pkg.

    I bought some slabbed 69 & 70 ASE from wholesaler at last show.

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DeutscherGeist said:
    If someone cracks out a PF69 coin, and puts it back in the OGP, that detail needs to be disclosed and part of the description if ever sold.

    If someone cracks a Morgan out of a PCGS MS65 holder and lists it for sale, describing it as having previously been slabbed as PCGS MS65, there are people here who will call the seller a crook.

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    BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,729 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Of course it happens. “Original, Sealed” packages often aren’t.

    The modern US Mint arbitrage game (and many others) are alive and well.

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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Suppose someone buys two coins from the mint. When he receives them, he inspects them to see if they might be worth submitting in order to get them into MS70 holders. Coin A looks promising, but Coin B is clearly not going to make the grade, so only Coin A is sent for grading. It comes back MS69. Based on some of the opinions posted here, Coin A shouldn't be repackaged for sale in its original government holder but Coin B can be sold that way, even though Coin A is the nicer coin.

    Is that about right? ;)

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    DeutscherGeistDeutscherGeist Posts: 2,990 ✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    @DeutscherGeist said:
    If someone cracks out a PF69 coin, and puts it back in the OGP, that detail needs to be disclosed and part of the description if ever sold.

    If someone cracks a Morgan out of a PCGS MS65 holder and lists it for sale, describing it as having previously been slabbed as PCGS MS65, there are people here who will call the seller a crook.

    A US Mint proof coin is capsulated at the US Mint. That is the original condition of the coin. An early Morgan dollar was not capsulated at the mint, so cracking it out of a slab to sell raw is not the same situation as the first scenario.

    "So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve

    BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee

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