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How do you distinguish a business strike from a proof morgan?

I have been looking at a few and they don't look like a typical proof.
Just trying to get an education and I know this place is loaded with an amazing amount of wisdom and knowledge.
Thank you.

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    Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,672 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well, our host has images of each type of coin. They do not look the same due to the type of dies and strike protocol. Use the Google to begin learning about the differences. Btw, there are various proof types as well. Good luck. Peace Roy

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    davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭✭✭

    where do you look at them at?

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    TomBTomB Posts: 20,731 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @davewesen said:
    where do you look at them at?

    Exactly. What is the source of your inspection?

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    I did just watch some YouTube videos and garnedered alot of information. I have found a couple of definite DPL or DMPL in my small hoard of Morgand but the 1921 Morgan has me intrigued. I also thought it would make for good positive conversation. It seems that not all proofs are as obvious as PL type coins. Interesting stuff.

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    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2023 5:49PM

    @Watchtower said:
    I did just watch some YouTube videos and garnedered alot of information. I have found a couple of definite DPL or DMPL in my small hoard of Morgand but the 1921 Morgan has me intrigued. I also thought it would make for good positive conversation. It seems that not all proofs are as obvious as PL type coins. Interesting stuff.

    PL is not the same as pf/pr. PL means proof like but a business strike. Meaning it has a surface that closely matches that of a proof coin. The next up is DMPL, or deep mirror proof like. These simply have stronger mirrors, and also have surface close to or similar to proof strikes.

    PF or pr are actual proof strikes. These are labeled as proofs, not PL or dmpl.

    Hope this helps clear up some terms.

    As someone with experience making mistakes, you would be best off finding and buying one of each so you can see the difference yourself. Then you will be able to decipher what is what better. You can always post a picture here for opinions, but keep in mind pictures often can't tell the whole story even with the best of photographs, so it will only be opinions/guesses.

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    RampageRampage Posts: 9,418 ✭✭✭✭

    PL and DMPL are not the same as Proof. The strike characteristics are not the same. I suggest starting at CoinFacts and look at pictures. That should be a big help.

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    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Rampage said:
    PL and DMPL are not the same as Proof. The strike characteristics are not the same. I suggest starting at CoinFacts and look at pictures. That should be a big help.

    There is no substitute to seeing in person though. Pictures are great but never tell the whole story.

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    RampageRampage Posts: 9,418 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2023 3:21AM

    @spyglassdesign said:

    @Rampage said:
    PL and DMPL are not the same as Proof. The strike characteristics are not the same. I suggest starting at CoinFacts and look at pictures. That should be a big help.

    There is no substitute to seeing in person though. Pictures are great but never tell the whole story.

    >

    I don’t disagree, but until you see some in hand, pictures will have to do. The first time I cherry picked a proof from a junk box, it stood out. In other words, it was so obvious, I needed no confirmation.

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    P0CKETCHANGEP0CKETCHANGE Posts: 2,259 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is a challenging area for newer collectors, given the prevalence of proof-like business strikes in this series. I’m not a Morgan collector and couldn’t answer OP’s question, although I did glance at a few Morgan proofs at FUN, and they do have a different look. Even lower end examples sell for thousands, so it’s not typically a pond in which novices are playing anyway.

    I just scanned eBay and noticed this key date PR06 for sale—not an often seen proof grade, for sure!

    Nothing is as expensive as free money.

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    @Watchtower said:
    I did just watch some YouTube videos and garnedered alot of information. I have found a couple of definite DPL or DMPL in my small hoard of Morgand but the 1921 Morgan has me intrigued. I also thought it would make for good positive conversation. It seems that not all proofs are as obvious as PL type coins. Interesting stuff.

    @Watchtower said:

    I have been looking at a few and they don't look like a typical proof.
    Just trying to get an education and I know this place is loaded with an amazing amount of wisdom and knowledge.
    Thank you.

    I honestly do believe I did differentiate between the types, however, I want to remain the student and I will listen to the teachers for sure.
    Thank you.

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    DeplorableDanDeplorableDan Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’m not sure where you live, but if it’s feasible, I recommend visiting a major show and looking at a bunch of coins. You’ll find plenty of proof morgans among other coins that you can compare in hand. Coin facts is especially valuable, and checking auction records can be equally as helpful, but after this past weekend at Fun, I would venture to say that it is probably the most experience that one can possibly gain in a single day.

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    david3142david3142 Posts: 3,421 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looking at a bunch of coins will certainly help. No need to purchase any as a poster above recommended. You honestly don’t need to be able to tell proof Morgans apart as you are extremely unlikely to encounter a raw one. However, once you’ve seen a few proofs and a few PL/DMPL coins, the differences are usually obvious. Proofs are also distinguished by CAM and DCAM (or UCAM) which refers to the depth of the mirrors and cameo contrast.

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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited January 9, 2023 6:42PM

    I don't collect Morgan's either. I have one that I will keep for just having a nice Morgan.
    Now on the other hand I have 96 Morgan dollars that I have had for a while. I am researching them so I know what I have. I believe a large portion of them to be AU and BU. Probably 60 of them. The rest of them are XF. I really like finding the VAM number on them and if just if one of them is a proof I want to know. I have already found a couple of PL or better but I will stick with proof like to be safe. I know the odds of me finding one are pretty bad but this is a collection of Morgan's not just a bunch of random dollars. Just like that proof above in low grade, I mean how can you tell?
    I have learned to look for a wire rim and very clear denticles with strong devices. That may just be it but I am sure there's more to it.
    I'm sure it is a proof no doubt but that changes the value extremely.
    BTW I am not planning on buying anymore Morgan's. It's not what I want to collect. I like Mercury dimes, walking liberty half dollars and the Bust denominations, which I have a type set of and will in time upgrade to suit my desire of condition.

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    @TomB said:

    @davewesen said:
    where do you look at them at?

    Exactly. What is the source of your inspection?

    If your asking me the answer is the PCGS coin fact app. It's the absolute best app out there in my opinion. So much information is helpful. Just like this forum. I imagine that there are different idiosyncrasies for each date. Or other simple ways to spot one or possibly overlook one because the surfaces may looked cleaned because of the polished die. I don't know that kind of information.
    I thought it would be fun to talk about.

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    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The proof above you can tell because their are no circulation strike 1895 P Morgan dollars. You said you don't collect Morgans. How do you have more than 90 of them if you don't. You won't randomly find a Proof Morgan among those but you may have some PL or even a DMPL in there.

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

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    davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Watchtower said:

    @TomB said:

    @davewesen said:
    where do you look at them at?

    Exactly. What is the source of your inspection?

    If your asking me the answer is the PCGS coin fact app. It's the absolute best app out there in my opinion. So much information is helpful. Just like this forum. I imagine that there are different idiosyncrasies for each date. Or other simple ways to spot one or possibly overlook one because the surfaces may looked cleaned because of the polished die. I don't know that kind of information.
    I thought it would be fun to talk about.

    Look at the denticles and edge all the way around both obverse and reverse. Check that there is not a mintmark. Confirm fields are mirrors and not frosty.

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    @gumby1234 said:
    The proof above you can tell because their are no circulation strike 1895 P Morgan dollars. You said you don't collect Morgans. How do you have more than 90 of them if you don't. You won't randomly find a Proof Morgan among those but you may have some PL or even a DMPL in there.

    They were passed on to me. This sparked my interest in collecting. The more I looked the more I became interested it's a slippery slope.

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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited January 10, 2023 6:01AM

    I don't understand this coin. The devices are sharp and well struck. It looks obviously cleaned. I don't understand why?
    Somebody was trying to clean up the fields I suppose. Doesn't make sense to me. Darn shame.

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you check resources such as suggested above, even the Redbook (a necessity for all coin collectors, if you do not have one, get one.), you should quickly learn the defining characteristics of a proof coin. PL, DMPL, CAM or DCAM become a bit more tricky, but they are described as well. It is a learning process, not something that you can achieve quickly like taking a pill. Keep reading this forum, study the resources suggested, ask questions and post pictures of issues you are studying. Have fun... Cheers, RickO

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    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Watchtower yes harshly cleaned and a rim ding. That one is worth its siver content. Too many scratches to be of any value.

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,053 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @gumby1234 said:
    @Watchtower yes harshly cleaned and a rim ding. That one is worth its siver content. Too many scratches to be of any value.

    Even as a harshly cleaned 1921, it's worth a significant % premium (of approximately 30%) over its' silver content/melt value.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    I will keep that in mind.
    There are some very very nice coins here. The ones that are bad are bad but the ones that are nice are super nice. It's like you can see the progression of the collection improving. One thing I have is 4 or 5 alligator eyes 1887 that are immaculate. I'll try to take some good images.

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    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld values must have gone up on them then. But the point is the same.

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

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    Here is a PL I believe.

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,053 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @gumby1234 said:
    @MFeld values must have gone up on them then. But the point is the same.

    Morgan dollars have traded above melt value for as long as I can remember. But at least we agree on the cleaning and the rim ding. ;)

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    slider23slider23 Posts: 638 ✭✭✭✭

    The proof Morgan's have the typical characteristics of bold strike, mirror surface, cameo, and square rims. The quality of these characteristics varied from year to year. The dies, and presses were given special handling before striking and the coins were given special handling after striking. The proof coins have die markings that can help identify a proof verses a business strike.

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    FloridafacelifterFloridafacelifter Posts: 1,153 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @slider23 said:
    The proof Morgan's have the typical characteristics of bold strike, mirror surface, cameo, and square rims. The quality of these characteristics varied from year to year. The dies, and presses were given special handling before striking and the coins were given special handling after striking. The proof coins have die markings that can help identify a proof verses a business strike.

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    ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,333 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Watchtower said:
    Here is a PL I believe.

    From the images I would probably call that a 63PL. Very nice coin. Any others like it in there?

    Collector, occasional seller

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    ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,333 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What do generic unc pre-21 Morgans sell for now? Not too long ago they were about $40 each but I think now we are in the $50-60 range?

    Collector, occasional seller

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    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @gumby1234 said:
    @MFeld values must have gone up on them then. But the point is the same.

    Morgan dollars have traded above melt value for as long as I can remember. But at least we agree on the cleaning and the rim ding. ;)

    I'm sure you are correct. The last time I bought junk Morgans they were $8

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

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    There are several PL type coins.
    I had to take the day out of work due to a faulty furnace. I have an afternoon to go to one or two LCS and get some offers so I can trade or buy what I want. It's not always easy to deal with them when selling. I haven't sold much but I have watched the process more than once. I'm not in any hurry. I'm pulling the best out for grading.

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    The_Dinosaur_ManThe_Dinosaur_Man Posts: 839 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Go to as many shows and shops as you can, and view all sorts of examples. Be conscious of the dealer's time per visit. It takes experience, but with patience and due diligence, you'll earn your expertise in the matter.

    Custom album maker and numismatic photographer, see my portfolio here: (http://www.donahuenumismatics.com/).

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    Thank you I really appreciate it. Yes I do have a Redbook. I don't really use it for pricing but for information. That PCGS app is the best.

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    I took 16 of the low grade common date coins and really wanted to do a trade but didn't see anything for me. I ended up with $480 for the group. I cannot complain about that.

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    leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,362 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The best way to dsplay a PL BS, I have found, is with a video. A still shot just doesn't do a PL coin justice. And don't just go whirling the coin around 90 mph and from a mile away....lol Move the coin as close to the camera as you can to maintain the focus of the coin and turn/rotate the coin as slow as possible so the viewer can register/possibly grade the coin at hand......is my experience. Keep in mind, 25% nickel/75% copper or 35% silver/65% copper coins do not match the mirrors/shine of 90% silver coins.
    https://youtu.be/uU4C8GbFdJM
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/kEBmGLCrBTc

    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,053 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @leothelyon said:
    The best way to dsplay a PL BS, I have found, is with a video. A still shot just doesn't do a PL coin justice. And don't just go whirling the coin around 90 mph and from a mile away....lol Move the coin as close to the camera as you can to maintain the focus of the coin and turn/rotate the coin as slow as possible so the viewer can register/possibly grade the coin at hand......is my experience. Keep in mind, 25% nickel/75% copper or 35% silver/65% copper coins do not match the mirrors/shine of 90% silver coins.
    https://youtu.be/uU4C8GbFdJM
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/kEBmGLCrBTc

    Leo

    If that coin is PL, it’s not apparent to me in the video.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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