NGC Green Label
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On the back of the Q1 CPG Market Review (which was distributed at FUN), I noticed the following advertisement from Modern Coin Mart about the NGC “Green Label”, which linked to this page on the MCM website.
The website states:
NGC Green Label certified coins must pass not only NGC’s strict standards for authentication and grading but must also meet or surpass RARCOA’s unparalleled standards for luster, strike, and eye appeal. This ensures that all NGC Green Label coins are of premium quality. The NGC Green Label provides RARCOA the opportunity to help identify exceptional coins for collectors more easily and support the market with active sight-unseen bids.
Seems like a CAC competitor, but operated by a commercial wholesaler that is also controlling the distribution channels by only selling through select dealers. Another quote from the website:
ModernCoinMart will be working in collaboration with RARCOA to supply coins that carry the new NGC Green Label and is proud to be among the first retailers to provide this new service to the coin collecting community. RARCOA will also assist in developing the demand for NGC Green Label coins by placing strong bids through worldwide dealer-to-dealer trading platforms.
The magazine ad also states that Heritage is involved in reviewing the coins.
What exactly is going on here?
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
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https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/8701/ngc-green-label/
I saw that same ad, and wondered the same thing….
Plastic, plastic and more plastic ...
Quite frankly, it is nice marketing but it is in no way a CAC competitor. They may be trying to make it sound that way but:
Didn’t they use the same green label for Binion Morgan’s?
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Not exactly the same one, but they were green.
It's interesting to me that the Morgan they use in the ad doesn't appear to have booming luster, and indeed, the slide marks left of the portrait don't bode well for marketing this new insert.
peacockcoins
So the plus and/or star isn’t enough? Now we need a hybrid with a special “green label” to identify a premium coin? In addition to there being multiple conflicts of interest, I don’t think that this is brilliant marketing at all.
I have nothing against NGC, and if I had a bunch of generic coins to submit and I wanted them back quickly, I would consider using them. The #1 complaint heard at the fun show was that PCGS turnaround times were too long and many have been turning to NGC for a more expedited service.
Regarding high value premium coins, I would always want them in pcgs plastic, as would most. The fact of the matter is that PCGS coins sell for more money, period. If NGC wants to improve their brand recognition and loyalty, my opinion is that they need to try to close that gap.
One of the most brilliant marketing strategies in TPG grading was the True View. No matter what one’s opinion is on TV’s, they help prop up the sale prices of pcgs coins. With such a high volume of coins selling in online auctions and websites, variances in photography technique plays a huge part in the price realized. With a TV, whether it’s a “glamour shot” or not, it’s a high resolution image that’s often more revealing than an auction photo. If you know how to interpret them, it’s extremely helpful in determining a coins luster and strike quality, among other things. Speaking from experience, I am much more likely to stretch for a coin that has a TV.
Sure, “Photovision” is an excellent quality image but it’s absolutely useless for anyone other than the original submitter of the coin. The slab photos that are available to the public do nothing for me, and they rarely illuminate anything that can’t be seen in poor quality auction or website photos. If anyone from ATS is reading, that is my recommendation for NGC. Please improve the quality of images that are available to the general public, some of us rarely submit coins and we like to show off our “glamour shots”. Evidence of this can be found in the majority of threads on this here forum.
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This is NOT NGC doing anything except offering a custom insert.
What @jmlanzaf said. Its not NGC its the other company selecting coins and having them put into slabs with that insert.
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Does this sound like they are manipulating the pricing on these?
RARCOA will also assist in developing the demand for NGC Green Label coins by placing strong bids through worldwide dealer-to-dealer trading platforms.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
No.
There are market makers all over the place.
Folks here love to post threads here that put NGC in a negative light, question anything they are involved in, and then others weigh in to amp up other TPG's as superior. Thaz all I gotta say here...............................................
You would think that some members here still think they own stock in PCGS the way they post.
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Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
While I wouldn’t dispute your claim in general (I’ve seen it happen), my original post just contains verbatim facts and an honest question, as I’ve never heard of this service level before seeing that ad.
edit: and I still don’t fully understand it, including what Heritage’s involvement is, as the ad states that these coins are reviewed according to standards established by experts at Heritage
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
While OP posted this ad along some commentary with a legitimate question, and I admittedly misinterpreted the advertisement, no one promoted PCGS, nor did they disparage NGC, at least not in this thread. All I stated was that PCGS coins sell for higher prices (fact), and that NGC should work on closing that gap (my opinion). I also admitted that PCGS turnaround times have been unsatisfactory for many, and I stand by my comments about NGC photography. Ive recently seen an NGC coin I was interested in, but the dealer had crappy photos and he never responded to my email asking for better images. A publicly available high resolution image could have helped with my decision to buy the coin. If you like, you could take my comment and apply it to an NGCX thread.
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You also said PCGS is the preferred slab. Let the kool-aid drinking begin. Honestly, Each TPG has its own qualities and limitations, there is clearly an effort here to let PCGS know how great it is and point out NGC is not 'preferred'. I disagree. Your post clearly denigrated NGC with several statements. Go back and read. This is not useful for folks to continue to degrade NGC here but I guess I can't do anything about it but point it out............. Sorry to be a Debbie Downer but it is what it is.
Well, it is preferred in certain parts of the market. And that part of the market is mostly what this particular forum is about. Some of that is real. Some is just perception. But it is what it is and won't be easy to change.
I do sort of wonder if P is "better", why do people keep submitting and resubmitting until they get + or a higher grade... isn't that what N allegedly have you the first time? At least that has been the allegation.
Food for thought.
Sounds like shilling at the wholesale level to the dealers bidding on the very coins they're getting paid to certify as having exceptional market value to the third-party grader that will ultimately assign the market grades to the coins. No, nothing cockeyed about that...
Just another marketing gimmick. Many will pursue it, and there will be some price enhancement, at least initially.... Lots of changes in the market coming this year... The OP topic, NGCX, CAC 1.0.... Fasten your seat belts... going to be a wild ride ahead. Cheers, RickO
First, I'll agree with your statement that "each TPG has its own qualities and limitations". From what I've observed, It appears that NGC dominates the market with World and Ancients. If you're choosing to interpret my statement that "TrueViews were brilliant Marketing" as an effort to "let PCGS know how great it is", then I don't know what to tell you. I work in Marketing, and Im objectively stating that TrueViews were a brilliant marketing strategy, do you really disagree with that? We are also on a forum hosted by PCGS, so yes, my comments may be geared in one direction more than the other. Im fully capable of being objective, and if you had a conversation with me in person, or on one of the other forums or groups I participate in, you would quickly be able to tell that Im not a blind kool-aid drinker and I make my decisions based on my own experience and what will suit me best.
While the first sentence of my original comment was a tongue in cheek question, I have admitted that I misinterpreted the advertisement and I was wrong about that. Other than that, I don't believe that I denigrated NGC. I stated that If I had more generic material and I wanted it back from grading quickly, I would strongly consider using NGC. Perhaps some poor word choice? I probably could have not used the word generic, but ill I meant was coins of moderate value in common grades and common dates. Im not redacting my statement about PCGS coins selling for more money, that's what I have seen in my experience, and my primary area of interest is Early US Gold. Let's just say for instance, that someone was going to give me $100k US gold coin as a gift. I don't know what coin it is, and it might be a coin that Id rather sell to fund purchase of others. All two coins being equal, I have the choice of receiving the coin in a PCGS or NGC holder in the same exact grade, and the coin gets presented to me the next day with no waiting. Im going to choose PCGS, are you not? Who knows, ask me the same question 6 months from now when CAC slabs are on the market and my answer may be different that time around.
I agree that it's not useful to denigrate NGC, and If that's how you anyone else received my comment, that was not my intention. However, I don't think it was fair to single me out just for sharing my thoughts on what I would like NGC to improve on. Im not redacting my statement about photo vision, I stand by my recommendation that If PV shots were made available to the public, I would be more likely to spend my money on NGC coins in auctions. I never said that I won't buy NGC coins, or that the graders at NGC are any less talented than PCGS, or that PCGS is always superior. I was merely sharing my own opinion that was formed from my own experience collecting the coins that I collect, as I do on any comment I make on a thread in this forum. Im not trying to debate the pros and cons of the different TPG services, and I believe I've made my point clear, so I will not be commenting on this thread any further.
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I enjoy PCGS Kool-Aid because the white pronged NGC Kool-Aid does not digest well with me.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
There is nothing cock-eyed about it. It's called market-making. It actually provides price support for commodities because there are open bids for the item. It is, in fact, what CAC does on their exchange. In this case, however, it seems more about marketing than actual market- making.
I don't know who you are talking about with the TPG. NGC has NOTHING to do with the choice of coins, the certification of exceptional value, the sale of the coins, or the open exchange bids on the coins.
Isn't NGC grading them?
They are grading them just like any other submission. You could get a custom label also, if you want. They are not certifying them as anything special with, as you put it, "as having exceptional market value".
This is a retailer who is paying for a custom label and hyping their custom label as being special. It has nothing to do with NGC other than they put them in the slab. They do custom slabs all the time. They do not benefit from any of the hype, as you seem to be alleging.
They do get more coins to grade if the retailer sells more coins with the special label. That’s kinda how this all works. They definitely hope to benefit from the hype through increases grading volume. Same as they hope to benefit from the NGCX sealed boxes that are going to be sold baseball card pack style.
Reading comprehension. That was in reference to RARCOA, the shill-bidder, not to NGC. Go back and see.
The article linked below states that RARCOA will be “…making markets in NGC Green Label coins by placing sight unseen bids on them on dealer-to-dealer electronic trading platforms.” That is not shill bidding and you’re being irresponsible in stating or implying that it is.
https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/8701/ngc-green-label/
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Not the way I see it. They're jacking up the dealer-bidding on the very coins they're certifying as exceptional. They shouldn't even be involved in that bidding, but let the dealers decide, without their leaning on the market, as such, what these coins should wholesale for. I don't think PCGS would be doing this business with them. This is a gimmick, and a conspicuous one, at that.
Who is "they"? They is NOT NGC, it's RARCOA. And they ARE A DEALER. I think you are completely misunderstanding what is going on here.
RARCOA sends in coins to get certified. Then RARCOA sells the coins. Period. They also buy them back and resell them on dealer exchanges. This is VERY COMMON. I was making the market in a couple commems for a little while. All that means is they have open bids and asks on coins in slabs. But whether you understand or approve or disapprove, it is NOT NGC that is doing anything with the market making.
There are market makers in every commodity in the world. Stocks, gold, most rare coins. There is nothing unusual here. Neither the marketing nor the market making.
You referred to the "they're getting paid to certify as having exceptional market value to the third-party grader that will ultimately assign the market grades to the coins". The only person getting "paid to certify" is NGC. NGC is also the "third-party grader". You don't ever mention RARCOA at all. Perhaps use nouns instead of indefinite pronouns and your meaning would be clearer.
It is NOT AN AUCTION. That is not how exchanges work. You post bids an then sellers contact you if they have what you want. Usually you will take the highest bid, but there is no auction process. I might post a bid for 500 @ $250 and you post a bid for 100 @ $200 and we might both get our bids filled. If you bid 100@$200, my 500@$250 does not erase your bid. Shill bidding implies increasing the price with no intent to purchase. That is exactly how commodity exchanges, including the entire stock market work. It's not "shilling", they are open offers to buy.
It's also worth pointing out that EVERY COIN in every major auction has had bids entered by dealers looking to resell the coins. They aren't jacking up the bids. They are trying to buy the coins. By your definition, EVERY bid is a shill bid.
Yeah, that coin used as a example of their quality kind of sucks
It certainly feels like a response to CAC. I think "+" and "*" should have been enough. I agree it feels pretty gimmicky, because it does not provide that "second opinion" of the grade the way CAC does.
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
@jmlanzaf, thank's for these explanations, I'm feeling better about this for them.
Thanks. But you can hate them for what they are. I just don't want you to hate them for what they aren't. Coin marketing is always a double edged sword.
So somehow we’re supposed to believe value is added because company R picks out a bunch of coins that “look nice” and company N assigns their grade and automatically puts them in a holder with a green label irrespective of the grade that was assigned and then company R makes a market in those coins.
Looks that way to me... look for my new NGC "Triple Gold" labels soon!
Mark
Are these automatically done, or is only Heritage and Rarcoa submitting coins for the green label?
I don’t have a problem with this program. It’s just a way for a couple of big market makers to continue bidding strong without the risk of buying ugly coins that will be impossible to retail. And if they can get a bit more for their coins that way, good for them.
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I want to see a PCGS Black Label Reserve.
I don’t know what that would be, but it sure sounds better than PCGS Kool-Aid!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Seems like the green label their answer to CAC? Yay! So in pricing them…..just use the CAC CPG number right lol? Cool.