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Why do coins not pass at CAC?

DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,722 ✭✭✭✭✭

Based on your experiences, what do you feel is the main reason your coins did not pass at CAC?

Why do coins not pass at CAC?

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    @DisneyFan said:
    Based on your experiences, what do you feel is the main reason your coins did not pass at CAC?

    Hopefully the TPG would have caught PVC or AT and labeled it as such. I don't have any experience with submitting coins to CAC, but I wouldn't think they accept details graded coins.

    Young Numismatist

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    BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Other (please state reason)

    I've never submitted any of my coins to CAC, however assume not passing differs based on a coin by coin basis for multiple of different reasons not just the singles selectable in this poll.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
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    semikeycollectorsemikeycollector Posts: 931 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Artifical toning

    When I was submitting many coins to PCGS in 2018, I had a pretty good idea which would slab. Like many of us, my CAC evaluation skills are not accute. I know some coins, which must CAC (mostly middle and high grade circs) but will miss on many of the others. I felt this 1865-s 10C would CAC for me.

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    lermishlermish Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Other (please state reason)

    Probably most common issue is old cleaning or surfaces that have been messed with. Over grading likely second.

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    Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,640 ✭✭✭✭✭
    PVC

    Over time coins can go bad in the holder or were exposed to PVC or something in atmosphere (salt air).

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2023 3:08AM

    @winesteven said:
    I believe there are three reasons where each represents a large portion of coins that fail to pass:

    1. Coins are properly graded but are “C” coins (lower end of the grade), along with fewer that are actually overgraded.
    2. Rubs on the high points of some Mint State coins.
    3. “Surface treatments” that are acceptable by the TPG’s, but not by CAC. I believe this is a major factor of failure with Gold coins.

    Steve

    Isn’t a coin with “rub” on the high points, over-graded, if it receives an uncirculated grade? If so, 2. above is a subset of 1.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,443 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @winesteven said:
    I believe there are three reasons where each represents a large portion of coins that fail to pass:

    1. Coins are properly graded but are “C” coins (lower end of the grade), along with fewer that are actually overgraded.
    2. Rubs on the high points of some Mint State coins.
    3. “Surface treatments” that are acceptable by the TPG’s, but not by CAC. I believe this is a major factor of failure with Gold coins.

    Steve

    Isn’t a coin with “rub” on the high points, over-graded, if it receives an uncirculated grade? If so, 2. above is a subset of 1.

    Unless a coin is carefully removed from a die and placed in a capsule, it will have high point rub from contact with other coins in a mint bag. Have you ever seen a business strike Saint Gaudens double eagle without a trace of rub on Miss Liberty's knee?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    sparky64sparky64 Posts: 7,026 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Other (please state reason)

    Based on my experience, I don't know why my coins don't qualify. It's never been explained to me, not even a one word indication.

    "If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"

    My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress

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    winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,078 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @winesteven said:
    I believe there are three reasons where each represents a large portion of coins that fail to pass:

    1. Coins are properly graded but are “C” coins (lower end of the grade), along with fewer that are actually overgraded.
    2. Rubs on the high points of some Mint State coins.
    3. “Surface treatments” that are acceptable by the TPG’s, but not by CAC. I believe this is a major factor of failure with Gold coins.

    Steve

    Isn’t a coin with “rub” on the high points, over-graded, if it receives an uncirculated grade? If so, 2. above is a subset of 1.

    Yes, overgraded in the opinion of CAC.

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @MFeld said:

    @winesteven said:
    I believe there are three reasons where each represents a large portion of coins that fail to pass:

    1. Coins are properly graded but are “C” coins (lower end of the grade), along with fewer that are actually overgraded.
    2. Rubs on the high points of some Mint State coins.
    3. “Surface treatments” that are acceptable by the TPG’s, but not by CAC. I believe this is a major factor of failure with Gold coins.

    Steve

    Isn’t a coin with “rub” on the high points, over-graded, if it receives an uncirculated grade? If so, 2. above is a subset of 1.

    Unless a coin is carefully removed from a die and placed in a capsule, it will have high point rub from contact with other coins in a mint bag. Have you ever seen a business strike Saint Gaudens double eagle without a trace of rub on Miss Liberty's knee?

    In answer to your question - not many, if any. However, there are many other types of coins, for which uncirculated examples can be found without high-point rub. So the ones that aren't rub-free (and probably aren't actually uncirculated), probably aren't good candidates for CAC.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Other (please state reason)

    This would be an interesting poll or study (with additions) at CAC. That would be reality, not opinion. I am reasonably confident, such information is probably available within the organization. Cheers, RickO

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    DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,722 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Meltdown said:
    Hell if I know but here is my last batch sent to CAC a couple weeks back.
    B)

    Nice - 4 out of ?

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    MeltdownMeltdown Posts: 8,667 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2023 6:25AM

    @DisneyFan - 4 out of 4. I was pretty shocked.

  • Options
    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Other (please state reason)

    I chose “all the above options” I’m sure a little of all the reasons apply.

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    WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 8,976 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Other (please state reason)

    @asheland said:
    I chose “all the above options” I’m sure a little of all the reasons apply.

    +1

    “I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

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    ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,433 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Other (please state reason)

    I have around 800 TPG unique coins most with superior eye appeal.

    Not one has a CAC sticker on it <3

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    skier07skier07 Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Other (please state reason)

    JA’s cappuccino maker wasn’t working.

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,318 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Other (please state reason)

    I don't feel the need to micromanage PCGS or NGC. Even if I didn't agree with the given grade by either, I do feel they are collectively better at grading than I, with no need to send them to an Overwatch.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

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    daltexdaltex Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In my very limited experience submitting, the reason is usually that they don't consider coins with Judd numbers that technically aren't patterns. YM will likely V.

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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They don't pass because the submitter does not know how to grade and relies only on the opinions of others.

    All glory is fleeting.
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    WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 8,976 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2023 3:34PM
    Other (please state reason)

    .

    “I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

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    stevebensteveben Posts: 4,596 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2023 6:15PM
    Other (please state reason)

    PVC is definitely one reason i have seen coins not pass. after watching the video interview of JA with @SethChandler i would say the other reasons are over-graded and/or negative eye appeal.

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    blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,464 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Other (please state reason)

    Other - you haven't submitted them enough times. Keep sending them in eventually they will all cacs. RGDS!

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.

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    BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2023 11:47PM
    Overgraded

    @steveben said:
    PVC is definitely one reason i have seen coins not pass. after watching the video interview of JA with @SethChandler i would say the other reasons are over-graded and/or negative eye appeal.

    I also saw the video interview of JA with Seth Chandler. That said, CAC apparently likes the etched, granular surfaces and pitting that comes with PVC damage, particularly on darkly toned coins. You'll want to zoom in to savor this coin's 'choice surfaces' which are important for CAC approval. You can hear the 'ocean' when you hold Miss Liberty's knee up to your ear.

    Sorry, but I'll only buy CAC coins that meet MY standards now. Never again will I trust their approval of a coin that I haven't examined carefully under good lighting. Twice now in an opportunity cost situation (a rare, typically high-grade coin comes available in a lower grade with CAC approval, i.e., an opportunity to get a "quality" rare coin at a low cost), I've trusted a CAC sticker as an assurance of quality for the grade when I couldn't get a good view of the coin (poor pictures or show lighting) only to be disappointed with the coin in hand because of corrosion.

    Oh, and VG10 coins shouldn't show "flash" as if they have luster either. And EF45 coins shouldn't sport a 1/4 carat cupric chloride crystal in the shield. It's not an effing emerald! Hello?

    I'm PO'd right now with CAC, CAC standards, and particularly with myself. On the other hand, I have a bunch of dark, corroded coins in my collection that I now realize are great candidates for stickering if they get past the TPGs. JA's love for toning and 'choice' surfaces might pay off for me down the road.

    I see green in this (my) coin's future after years of rotting in PVC plasticizer or some other moist, low pH environment.

    3 rim nicks away from Good
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    VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 3,814 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Overgraded

    The reason most coins don't pass CAC? Because do not meet CAC standards as "at least solid for the assigned grade". Or am I stating the obvious?

    I do not think most coins fail CAC because they are "problem coins".

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    1Mike11Mike1 Posts: 4,414 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Overgraded

    I only focus on Lincoln cents so my opinion is limited to what I see in my search. I see a lot of over graded junk in slabs with no CAC sticker.

    "May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"

    "A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
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    BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Overgraded

    @VanHalen said:
    The reason most coins don't pass CAC? Because do not meet CAC standards as "at least solid for the assigned grade". Or am I stating the obvious?

    I do not think most coins fail CAC because they are "problem coins".

    Even problem coins don't necessarily fail at TPGs or CAC. Some dogs slip through the cracks.

    Choice surfaces.

    3 rim nicks away from Good
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    BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,735 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Years ago, if you asked nicely, JA would put a sticky note on the coins that didn’t sticker. I got lots of “cleaned, long ago” notes, a few “PVC”, a few that said “abrasions” and a few that didn’t say anything.

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    burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I guess I also wonder why coins DO pass CAC!

    Not sure what their guidelines are and not educated enough about them to even speculate but I have seen some stickered that surprised me...

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    VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 3,814 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Overgraded

    @burfle23 said:
    I guess I also wonder why coins DO pass CAC!

    Not sure what their guidelines are and not educated enough about them to even speculate but I have seen some stickered that surprised me...

    Why coins DO pass CAC?

    They meet CAC's standard for the assigned grade and do not have problems that preclude CAC approval.

    As a side note it has repeatedly been stated the CAC is very tough on any type of rim ding, bruise or abrasion. I once heard professionals (I am not one!) start grading around the rim of the coin. I imagine their being extremely fussy regarding rims could fall back to where pro graders gravitate first? I don't know, but now pay more attention to rims than I ever did prior to CAC!

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    RayboRaybo Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Meltdown said:
    Hell if I know but here is my last batch sent to CAC a couple weeks back.
    B)

    I'm guessing it took you a while to put tougher your group of four coins?
    You failed on the Morgan! ;)

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    slider23slider23 Posts: 638 ✭✭✭✭
    Other (please state reason)

    1 C coins (over graded)

    2 Problems (scratches, spots, cleaning, etc)

    3 Lacks eye appeal

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    lermishlermish Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Other (please state reason)

    @VanHalen said:

    @burfle23 said:
    I guess I also wonder why coins DO pass CAC!

    Not sure what their guidelines are and not educated enough about them to even speculate but I have seen some stickered that surprised me...

    As a side note it has repeatedly been stated the CAC is very tough on any type of rim ding, bruise or abrasion. I once heard professionals (I am not one!) start grading around the rim of the coin. I imagine their being extremely fussy regarding rims could fall back to where pro graders gravitate first? I don't know, but now pay more attention to rims than I ever did prior to CAC!

    I don't know where their levels on rim issues are but this just passed CAC a couple of months ago at XF45 with some noticeable divots on the obverse rim.

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    VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 3,814 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Overgraded

    On a nearly 200 year old XF gold piece you're going to get some leeway.

    The rim issues are going to be a greater factor on MS pieces.

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