Home U.S. Coin Forum
Options

Advice on Capped Bust (toned)

spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

I suspect there is a good chance this could be AT but I'm not certain...

So first question... AT or NT?
Second, if AT, is there anything that I can do to undo it (ie a dip of some sort?)? Can the tpgs do anything?

I understand the risk of uncovering other problems potentially.

Thanks!


Comments

  • Options
    morgandollar1878morgandollar1878 Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭✭✭

    100% AT. Conservation could probably be done, but the question is would it be worth it to you to pay for the services? Sell it and buy a better one IMHO.

    Instagram: nomad_numismatics
  • Options
    DeplorableDanDeplorableDan Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2023 5:45PM

    I suspect AT that was done to hide improper cleaning. I say that because I have a details trade dollar that has similar reverse fields, where it appears like someone scraped the skin off of the coin.

    Edit: pic added (coin removed from details slab)

  • Options
    KyleKyle Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Certainly AT, I would be concerned that it was done to cover something up on the surfaces, like a harsh cleaning.

    If this is a coin you are considering purchasing, I would just avoid it.

    Successful BST Transactions With: tonedase, streg2, airplanenut, coindeuce, vibr0nic, natetrook, Shrub68, golden, Lakesammman, drddm, Ilikecolor, CoinJunkie, wondercoin, lablover
  • Options
    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Kyle said:
    Certainly AT, I would be concerned that it was done to cover something up on the surfaces, like a harsh cleaning.

    If this is a coin you are considering purchasing, I would just avoid it.

    It's already in my possession, that's why I was wondering about conservation.

  • Options
    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @spyglassdesign said:

    @Kyle said:
    Certainly AT, I would be concerned that it was done to cover something up on the surfaces, like a harsh cleaning.

    If this is a coin you are considering purchasing, I would just avoid it.

    It's already in my possession, that's why I was wondering about conservation.

    Chances are good that the artificial toning is masking another problem. And that if the coin is conserved, you’ll be out additional money, but still have a coin that exhibits that other problem.

    I hope you didn’t buy with the thought that you’ll return it, if you receive negative comments here.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Options
    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @spyglassdesign said:

    @Kyle said:
    Certainly AT, I would be concerned that it was done to cover something up on the surfaces, like a harsh cleaning.

    If this is a coin you are considering purchasing, I would just avoid it.

    It's already in my possession, that's why I was wondering about conservation.

    Chances are good that the artificial toning is masking another problem. And that if the coin is conserved, you’ll be out additional money, but still have a coin that exhibits that other problem.

    I hope you didn’t buy with the thought that you’ll return it, if you receive negative comments here.

    Not at all. Thanks for the input.

  • Options
    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @spyglassdesign said:

    @MFeld said:

    @spyglassdesign said:

    @Kyle said:
    Certainly AT, I would be concerned that it was done to cover something up on the surfaces, like a harsh cleaning.

    If this is a coin you are considering purchasing, I would just avoid it.

    It's already in my possession, that's why I was wondering about conservation.

    Chances are good that the artificial toning is masking another problem. And that if the coin is conserved, you’ll be out additional money, but still have a coin that exhibits that other problem.

    I hope you didn’t buy with the thought that you’ll return it, if you receive negative comments here.

    Not at all. Thanks for the input.

    Glad to hear it and you’re most welcome.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Options
    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Too late for this time, but in the future if you can't tell about the toning, you might look at graded coins and see what kinds of coins get straight grades to give you an idea of what's acceptable.

  • Options
    AtcarrollAtcarroll Posts: 343 ✭✭✭

    AT. Looks like it could possibly be from liver of sulfur, and it may or may not be too burnt into the surface to dip off. Maybe you could use your finger to smear it around and dirty it up to even out the color and simulate the look of a natural skin. I've seen a few like that, some I've been able to do something about the eye appeal and some are lost causes.

  • Options
    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2023 6:11PM

    @MasonG said:
    Too late for this time, but in the future if you can't tell about the toning, you might look at graded coins and see what kinds of coins get straight grades to give you an idea of what's acceptable.

    Honestly this is what the sales pics looked similar to:

    https://www.pcgs.com/cert/43043917
    There are some pretty wild looking toners at PCGS:
    https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1838-50c/images/6177

  • Options
    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Atcarroll said:
    AT. Looks like it could possibly be from liver of sulfur, and it may or may not be too burnt into the surface to dip off. Maybe you could use your finger to smear it around and dirty it up to even out the color and simulate the look of a natural skin. I've seen a few like that, some I've been able to do something about the eye appeal and some are lost causes.

    My goal isn't to further fake it, if anything I would rather attempt to remove the fake toning if possible. Everyone seems to agree what I suspected.

  • Options
    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,093 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Also with those surreal images, chances are it would be a real dog in hand with proper lighting.

  • Options
    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:
    Also with those surreal images, chances are it would be a real dog in hand with proper lighting.

    Not surreal. These are real images.

    Here it is raw in hand. The op images are about as close to in hand as I can do with my high Def setup.


  • Options
    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Based on the additional images, I’m fairly confident that the coin is both artificially toned and cleaned.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Options
    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @spyglassdesign said:

    @MasonG said:
    Too late for this time, but in the future if you can't tell about the toning, you might look at graded coins and see what kinds of coins get straight grades to give you an idea of what's acceptable.

    Honestly this is what the sales pics looked similar to:

    IMO, the only similarity is that both are toned. To me, the toning on the first doesn't look anything like the toning on the second.

  • Options
    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    @spyglassdesign said:

    @MasonG said:
    Too late for this time, but in the future if you can't tell about the toning, you might look at graded coins and see what kinds of coins get straight grades to give you an idea of what's acceptable.

    Honestly this is what the sales pics looked similar to:

    IMO, the only similarity is that both are toned. To me, the toning on the first doesn't look anything like the toning on the second.

    Well yes not my images. The ones that I purchased based on looked more like the one I linked in intensity etc.

  • Options
    ColonelKlinckColonelKlinck Posts: 371 ✭✭✭

    @spyglassdesign said:

    @MasonG said:
    Too late for this time, but in the future if you can't tell about the toning, you might look at graded coins and see what kinds of coins get straight grades to give you an idea of what's acceptable.

    Honestly this is what the sales pics looked similar to:

    https://www.pcgs.com/cert/43043917
    There are some pretty wild looking toners at PCGS:
    https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1838-50c/images/6177

    Honestly, if the sales pictures representing your coin looked similar to Cert.#43043917, you should demand a refund as your coin was grossly misrepresented. There isn't any way the harsh unnatural toning of your coin remotely resembles the natural earthy blending of shades portrayed by the graded example.

  • Options
    AtcarrollAtcarroll Posts: 343 ✭✭✭

    It looks like it had some natural toning on the obverse before it got AT'd. It's got nice details, but it'll always be a details coin

  • Options
    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:
    Based on the additional images, I’m fairly confident that the coin is both artificially toned and cleaned.

    Not that it matters that much at this point, as it's obviously messed with, but the sleeve is very scratched up so it may look more cleaned because of that.

    I did get it at a basement price fortunately so it may be a candidate for trying some self conservation...

  • Options
    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @spyglassdesign said:

    I did get it at a basement price...

    There's your first clue. Toned coins tend to command a premium and nobody is going to give you a basement price on one.

  • Options
    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2023 6:34PM

    @MasonG said:

    @spyglassdesign said:

    I did get it at a basement price...

    There's your first clue. Toned coins tend to command a premium and nobody is going to give you a basement price on one.

    It was on a live auction... I wasn't 'given' a good deal.

  • Options
    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @spyglassdesign said:

    @MasonG said:

    @spyglassdesign said:

    I did get it at a basement price...

    There's your first clue. Toned coins tend to command a premium and nobody is going to give you a basement price on one.

    It was on a live auction...

    That makes it harder, but still- if it's not getting bid up above a "basement price", there's probably a reason.

  • Options
    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    @spyglassdesign said:

    @MasonG said:

    @spyglassdesign said:

    I did get it at a basement price...

    There's your first clue. Toned coins tend to command a premium and nobody is going to give you a basement price on one.

    It was on a live auction...

    That makes it harder, but still- if it's not getting bid up above a "basement price", there's probably a reason.

    Fair point. Nonetheless if I decide to do anything with it I'll be sure to update you guys.

  • Options
    Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,150 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’d think about offering it as-is on eBay, with a disclaimer, as someone might want it for a budget toner type set. If no takers, then perhaps consider self conservation. I doubt anything short of a dip would remove the toning; then you’ll likely have an unnatural white coin.

    Successful BST transactions with 170 members. Recent: Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
  • Options
    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerguy21D said:
    I’d think about offering it as-is on eBay, with a disclaimer, as someone might want it for a budget toner type set. If no takers, then perhaps consider self conservation. I doubt anything short of a dip would remove the toning; then you’ll likely have an unnatural white coin.

    I'm sure it will never be white again but I get what you are saying.

  • Options
    TomBTomB Posts: 20,734 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You've already had it listed on ebay for a while as a "Choice AU+, MS+ Coin!".

    The coin is absolutely AT and PCGS or NGC will catch it every single time.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • Options
    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2023 8:32PM

    @TomB said:
    You've already had it listed on ebay for a while as a "Choice AU+, MS+ Coin!".

    The coin is absolutely AT and PCGS or NGC will catch it every single time.

    Not sure why you had to call me out like that but Yeah, I had someone ask me about it, that's why I started looking at it closer and decided to ask here, because I wasn't certain, but the more I looked at it the more I realized it probably was. As others pointed out it does have good details but I now know for sure it is AT.

    My question was about AT or NT (which was answered quickly), and whether it might be possible to conserve. Not about the level of details it has. The ad has been removed for now since I might try to conserve it...

  • Options
    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2023 8:31PM
  • Options
    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @spyglassdesign said:
    I suspect there is a good chance this could be AT but I'm not certain...

    Perhaps it would be best to sort out concerns like this before listing the coin for sale?

  • Options
    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2023 8:30PM

    @MasonG said:

    @spyglassdesign said:
    I suspect there is a good chance this could be AT but I'm not certain...

    Perhaps it would be best to sort out concerns like this before listing the coin for sale?

    That's fair. I try to compare to coinfacts coins to get the closest I can I don't want to bother the forum for every coin.

    (edited)

  • Options
    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2023 8:29PM
  • Options
    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2023 3:00AM

    Edited, since the EBay listing in question was ended.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Options
    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2023 8:28PM
  • Options
    scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 1,736 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don’t feel you come across as dishonest, and taking the time to come here for advice after you got questions about your listing is more than most sellers would do.
    Good work there.

  • Options
    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @scubafuel said:
    I don’t feel you come across as dishonest, and taking the time to come here for advice after you got questions about your listing is more than most sellers would do.
    Good work there.

    Well that helps a little. Maybe I'm sensitive to it but my honesty is all I have.

  • Options
    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @spyglassdesign ... Good luck with your conservation efforts. Just be careful and try not to overdip the coin, as that will result in an undesirable visual effect as well. Cheers, RickO

  • Options
    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ricko said:
    @spyglassdesign ... Good luck with your conservation efforts. Just be careful and try not to overdip the coin, as that will result in an undesirable visual effect as well. Cheers, RickO

    Thanks. I've been reading up on it. One guy had success 'pouring' a diluted solution like 20 to 1 over and over. He got straight grades afterwards (one was almost completely black,).

    Seems to me that could risk an uneven 'dip' if you aren't careful. Seems having a stable hold of the coin and quickly fully submerging and dipping in distilled water is probably the safer bet? I do like the idea of diluting it so be able to stop where you want as opposed to full strength though.

    I'm prepared for whatever the results may be... Hopefully it's not too scarred from whatever they used to tone it 😬

  • Options
    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @spyglassdesign... Yes, caution, proceed slowly. It will be a learning process whether you are successful or not.... Show us the results, it can help others. Cheers, RickO

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file