Advice on Capped Bust (toned)

spyglassdesign

I suspect there is a good chance this could be AT but I'm not certain...

So first question... AT or NT?
Second, if AT, is there anything that I can do to undo it (ie a dip of some sort?)? Can the tpgs do anything?

I understand the risk of uncovering other problems potentially.

Thanks!

morgandollar1878

100% AT. Conservation could probably be done, but the question is would it be worth it to you to pay for the services? Sell it and buy a better one IMHO.

PeakRarities

I suspect AT that was done to hide improper cleaning. I say that because I have a details trade dollar that has similar reverse fields, where it appears like someone scraped the skin off of the coin.

Edit: pic added (coin removed from details slab)

Kyle

Certainly AT, I would be concerned that it was done to cover something up on the surfaces, like a harsh cleaning.

If this is a coin you are considering purchasing, I would just avoid it.

spyglassdesign

@Kyle said:
Certainly AT, I would be concerned that it was done to cover something up on the surfaces, like a harsh cleaning.

If this is a coin you are considering purchasing, I would just avoid it.

It's already in my possession, that's why I was wondering about conservation.

MFeld

@spyglassdesign said:

@Kyle said:
Certainly AT, I would be concerned that it was done to cover something up on the surfaces, like a harsh cleaning.

If this is a coin you are considering purchasing, I would just avoid it.

It's already in my possession, that's why I was wondering about conservation.

Chances are good that the artificial toning is masking another problem. And that if the coin is conserved, you’ll be out additional money, but still have a coin that exhibits that other problem.

I hope you didn’t buy with the thought that you’ll return it, if you receive negative comments here.

spyglassdesign

@MFeld said:

@spyglassdesign said:

@Kyle said:
Certainly AT, I would be concerned that it was done to cover something up on the surfaces, like a harsh cleaning.

If this is a coin you are considering purchasing, I would just avoid it.

It's already in my possession, that's why I was wondering about conservation.

Chances are good that the artificial toning is masking another problem. And that if the coin is conserved, you’ll be out additional money, but still have a coin that exhibits that other problem.

I hope you didn’t buy with the thought that you’ll return it, if you receive negative comments here.

Not at all. Thanks for the input.

MFeld

@spyglassdesign said:

@MFeld said:

@spyglassdesign said:

@Kyle said:
Certainly AT, I would be concerned that it was done to cover something up on the surfaces, like a harsh cleaning.

If this is a coin you are considering purchasing, I would just avoid it.

It's already in my possession, that's why I was wondering about conservation.

Chances are good that the artificial toning is masking another problem. And that if the coin is conserved, you’ll be out additional money, but still have a coin that exhibits that other problem.

I hope you didn’t buy with the thought that you’ll return it, if you receive negative comments here.

Not at all. Thanks for the input.

Glad to hear it and you’re most welcome.

MasonG

Too late for this time, but in the future if you can't tell about the toning, you might look at graded coins and see what kinds of coins get straight grades to give you an idea of what's acceptable.

[Deleted User]

AT. Looks like it could possibly be from liver of sulfur, and it may or may not be too burnt into the surface to dip off. Maybe you could use your finger to smear it around and dirty it up to even out the color and simulate the look of a natural skin. I've seen a few like that, some I've been able to do something about the eye appeal and some are lost causes.

spyglassdesign

@MasonG said:
Too late for this time, but in the future if you can't tell about the toning, you might look at graded coins and see what kinds of coins get straight grades to give you an idea of what's acceptable.

Honestly this is what the sales pics looked similar to:

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/43043917
There are some pretty wild looking toners at PCGS:
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1838-50c/images/6177

spyglassdesign

@Atcarroll said:
AT. Looks like it could possibly be from liver of sulfur, and it may or may not be too burnt into the surface to dip off. Maybe you could use your finger to smear it around and dirty it up to even out the color and simulate the look of a natural skin. I've seen a few like that, some I've been able to do something about the eye appeal and some are lost causes.

My goal isn't to further fake it, if anything I would rather attempt to remove the fake toning if possible. Everyone seems to agree what I suspected.

logger7

Also with those surreal images, chances are it would be a real dog in hand with proper lighting.

spyglassdesign

@logger7 said:
Also with those surreal images, chances are it would be a real dog in hand with proper lighting.

Not surreal. These are real images.

Here it is raw in hand. The op images are about as close to in hand as I can do with my high Def setup.

MFeld

Based on the additional images, I’m fairly confident that the coin is both artificially toned and cleaned.

MasonG

@spyglassdesign said:

@MasonG said:
Too late for this time, but in the future if you can't tell about the toning, you might look at graded coins and see what kinds of coins get straight grades to give you an idea of what's acceptable.

Honestly this is what the sales pics looked similar to:

IMO, the only similarity is that both are toned. To me, the toning on the first doesn't look anything like the toning on the second.

spyglassdesign

@MasonG said:

@spyglassdesign said:

@MasonG said:
Too late for this time, but in the future if you can't tell about the toning, you might look at graded coins and see what kinds of coins get straight grades to give you an idea of what's acceptable.

Honestly this is what the sales pics looked similar to:

IMO, the only similarity is that both are toned. To me, the toning on the first doesn't look anything like the toning on the second.

Well yes not my images. The ones that I purchased based on looked more like the one I linked in intensity etc.

ColonelKlinck

@spyglassdesign said:

@MasonG said:
Too late for this time, but in the future if you can't tell about the toning, you might look at graded coins and see what kinds of coins get straight grades to give you an idea of what's acceptable.

Honestly this is what the sales pics looked similar to:

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/43043917
There are some pretty wild looking toners at PCGS:
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1838-50c/images/6177

Honestly, if the sales pictures representing your coin looked similar to Cert.#43043917, you should demand a refund as your coin was grossly misrepresented. There isn't any way the harsh unnatural toning of your coin remotely resembles the natural earthy blending of shades portrayed by the graded example.

[Deleted User]

It looks like it had some natural toning on the obverse before it got AT'd. It's got nice details, but it'll always be a details coin

spyglassdesign

@MFeld said:
Based on the additional images, I’m fairly confident that the coin is both artificially toned and cleaned.

Not that it matters that much at this point, as it's obviously messed with, but the sleeve is very scratched up so it may look more cleaned because of that.

I did get it at a basement price fortunately so it may be a candidate for trying some self conservation...

MasonG

@spyglassdesign said:

I did get it at a basement price...

There's your first clue. Toned coins tend to command a premium and nobody is going to give you a basement price on one.

spyglassdesign

@MasonG said:

@spyglassdesign said:

I did get it at a basement price...

There's your first clue. Toned coins tend to command a premium and nobody is going to give you a basement price on one.

It was on a live auction... I wasn't 'given' a good deal.

MasonG

@spyglassdesign said:

@MasonG said:

@spyglassdesign said:

I did get it at a basement price...

There's your first clue. Toned coins tend to command a premium and nobody is going to give you a basement price on one.

It was on a live auction...

That makes it harder, but still- if it's not getting bid up above a "basement price", there's probably a reason.

spyglassdesign

@MasonG said:

@spyglassdesign said:

@MasonG said:

@spyglassdesign said:

I did get it at a basement price...

There's your first clue. Toned coins tend to command a premium and nobody is going to give you a basement price on one.

It was on a live auction...

That makes it harder, but still- if it's not getting bid up above a "basement price", there's probably a reason.

Fair point. Nonetheless if I decide to do anything with it I'll be sure to update you guys.

Walkerguy21D

I’d think about offering it as-is on eBay, with a disclaimer, as someone might want it for a budget toner type set. If no takers, then perhaps consider self conservation. I doubt anything short of a dip would remove the toning; then you’ll likely have an unnatural white coin.

spyglassdesign

@Walkerguy21D said:
I’d think about offering it as-is on eBay, with a disclaimer, as someone might want it for a budget toner type set. If no takers, then perhaps consider self conservation. I doubt anything short of a dip would remove the toning; then you’ll likely have an unnatural white coin.

I'm sure it will never be white again but I get what you are saying.

TomB

You've already had it listed on ebay for a while as a "Choice AU+, MS+ Coin!".

The coin is absolutely AT and PCGS or NGC will catch it every single time.

spyglassdesign

@TomB said:
You've already had it listed on ebay for a while as a "Choice AU+, MS+ Coin!".

The coin is absolutely AT and PCGS or NGC will catch it every single time.

Not sure why you had to call me out like that but Yeah, I had someone ask me about it, that's why I started looking at it closer and decided to ask here, because I wasn't certain, but the more I looked at it the more I realized it probably was. As others pointed out it does have good details but I now know for sure it is AT.

My question was about AT or NT (which was answered quickly), and whether it might be possible to conserve. Not about the level of details it has. The ad has been removed for now since I might try to conserve it...

spyglassdesign

I've taken it down.

MasonG

@spyglassdesign said:
I suspect there is a good chance this could be AT but I'm not certain...

Perhaps it would be best to sort out concerns like this before listing the coin for sale?

spyglassdesign

@MasonG said:

@spyglassdesign said:
I suspect there is a good chance this could be AT but I'm not certain...

Perhaps it would be best to sort out concerns like this before listing the coin for sale?

That's fair. I try to compare to coinfacts coins to get the closest I can I don't want to bother the forum for every coin.

(edited)

spyglassdesign

.

MFeld

Edited, since the EBay listing in question was ended.

spyglassdesign

.

scubafuel

I don’t feel you come across as dishonest, and taking the time to come here for advice after you got questions about your listing is more than most sellers would do.
Good work there.

spyglassdesign

@scubafuel said:
I don’t feel you come across as dishonest, and taking the time to come here for advice after you got questions about your listing is more than most sellers would do.
Good work there.

Well that helps a little. Maybe I'm sensitive to it but my honesty is all I have.

ricko

@spyglassdesign ... Good luck with your conservation efforts. Just be careful and try not to overdip the coin, as that will result in an undesirable visual effect as well. Cheers, RickO

spyglassdesign

@ricko said:
@spyglassdesign ... Good luck with your conservation efforts. Just be careful and try not to overdip the coin, as that will result in an undesirable visual effect as well. Cheers, RickO

Thanks. I've been reading up on it. One guy had success 'pouring' a diluted solution like 20 to 1 over and over. He got straight grades afterwards (one was almost completely black,).

Seems to me that could risk an uneven 'dip' if you aren't careful. Seems having a stable hold of the coin and quickly fully submerging and dipping in distilled water is probably the safer bet? I do like the idea of diluting it so be able to stop where you want as opposed to full strength though.

I'm prepared for whatever the results may be... Hopefully it's not too scarred from whatever they used to tone it 😬

ricko

@spyglassdesign... Yes, caution, proceed slowly. It will be a learning process whether you are successful or not.... Show us the results, it can help others. Cheers, RickO