@gumby1234 said: @johnny010 you said "And no, I don’t think a lot of people love NGC so taking the business elsewhere isn’t ideal."
NGC has graded more than 50 million coins so they must be doing something that people like.
Yes and concernigly so. I’m reading closely and it’s clear NGC gives out higher grades and that helps drive their business. I’m sure this is a can of worms to open but when you have a low pop of coin with PCGS at a certain grade but there are plenty in NGC holders at the same or higher grade and members say be careful it’s not always easy to cross straight grade to PCGS there’s a discrepancy in the industry since they both use the same grading scale. Anyway outsider looking in but that’s what I’m seeing.
As for the OP making a hateful post I don’t know the back story here or why someone would impersonate someone else. My specific sentiment relates to growing your business and taking care of customers as demand rises. That’s normal business practice.
Ahh the incoherent ramblings of a freshly minted koolaid drinker, always good for a laugh.
I don't think this is a laughing matter when members are being disrespectful and derisive of others, nevermind our host. And I don't think many members new or old would find it a laughing matter.
@AdamL said:
I've never understood why some people care so much when exactly their card gets charged for grading. Once your coins are shipped off to them, what's the difference? In fact, I personally would prefer to pay up front instead of getting charged at some random future date that I can't predict.
I can certainly understand why submitters don’t like being charged for services that haven’t yet been performed - especially if it’s a recently instituted policy.
Additionally, charging in advance doesn’t give the grading company any incentive to improve their turnaround times.
Must be a policy change after going private as this methodology of revenue recognition would never fly in GAAP without an adjustment from a reporting standpoint to back it all out to align with the previous policy. Good cash flow for them at the expense of their customers.
I’m not assuming that the policy change has even taken place. So far, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone confirm the OP’s claim. That said, if it is true, I think it’s unfortunate.
I always thought charging a CC before shipping product was contrary the CC merchant agreement. Most online retailers follow this principle.
While terms stating the CC will be charged upon receipt of the order have been a part of the PCGS submission agreement for quite a while, they have never chosen to do so (unlike NGC, which does charge upon receipt).
However, given the new owners of the company, such a change would hardly be surprising.
@shish said: @gumby1234 said " If you don't like how a company conducts their business you can take your business somewhere else."
True, but where would you suggest? For example, NGC is viewed by many as much less desirable.
NGC dominates the ancients grading market and still are the biggest player in world coins grading although PCGS is catching up. My experience is that NGC is as consistent in applying ANA grading standards to US coins as PCGS. IMO, it is marketing hype that has made NGC coins less desirable to some........
I collect only world coins now.
My experience is that NGC more liberal with their grading......wish it was otherwise.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
@shish said: @gumby1234 said " If you don't like how a company conducts their business you can take your business somewhere else."
True, but where would you suggest? For example, NGC is viewed by many as much less desirable.
NGC dominates the ancients grading market and still are the biggest player in world coins grading although PCGS is catching up. My experience is that NGC is as consistent in applying ANA grading standards to US coins as PCGS. IMO, it is marketing hype that has made NGC coins less desirable to some........
I collect only world coins now.
My experience is that NGC more liberal with their grading......wish it was otherwise.
I, too must agree with the above statement regarding foreign coins.
@shish said: @gumby1234 said " If you don't like how a company conducts their business you can take your business somewhere else."
True, but where would you suggest? For example, NGC is viewed by many as much less desirable.
Just the opposite for me. I prefer NGC holders for smaller coins. Also the informed recognize recent tightening of grading standards at NGC. And don't forget NGC coins have been given CAC stickers as well.
@gumby1234 said: @johnny010 you said "And no, I don’t think a lot of people love NGC so taking the business elsewhere isn’t ideal."
NGC has graded more than 50 million coins so they must be doing something that people like.
Yes and concernigly so. I’m reading closely and it’s clear NGC gives out higher grades and that helps drive their business. I’m sure this is a can of worms to open but when you have a low pop of coin with PCGS at a certain grade but there are plenty in NGC holders at the same or higher grade and members say be careful it’s not always easy to cross straight grade to PCGS there’s a discrepancy in the industry since they both use the same grading scale. Anyway outsider looking in but that’s what I’m seeing.
As for the OP making a hateful post I don’t know the back story here or why someone would impersonate someone else. My specific sentiment relates to growing your business and taking care of customers as demand rises. That’s normal business practice.
Ahh the incoherent ramblings of a freshly minted koolaid drinker, always good for a laugh.
I don't think this is a laughing matter when members are being disrespectful and derisive of others, nevermind our host. And I don't think many members new or old would find it a laughing matter.
100% a laugh, not a day goes by that someone on this forum is not offended, or some company (usually NGC) is bashed for no reason. Just two posts down from your reply two members are bashing NGC in clear violation of the forum rules. Both make statements that NGC overgrades however neither provides any proof of such claim.
@shish said: @gumby1234 said " If you don't like how a company conducts their business you can take your business somewhere else."
True, but where would you suggest? For example, NGC is viewed by many as much less desirable.
NGC dominates the ancients grading market and still are the biggest player in world coins grading although PCGS is catching up. My experience is that NGC is as consistent in applying ANA grading standards to US coins as PCGS. IMO, it is marketing hype that has made NGC coins less desirable to some........
I collect only world coins now.
My experience is that NGC more liberal with their grading......wish it was otherwise.
@shish said: @gumby1234 said " If you don't like how a company conducts their business you can take your business somewhere else."
True, but where would you suggest? For example, NGC is viewed by many as much less desirable.
NGC dominates the ancients grading market and still are the biggest player in world coins grading although PCGS is catching up. My experience is that NGC is as consistent in applying ANA grading standards to US coins as PCGS. IMO, it is marketing hype that has made NGC coins less desirable to some........
I collect only world coins now.
My experience is that NGC more liberal with their grading......wish it was otherwise.
I, too must agree with the above statement regarding foreign coins.
The forum rules are so often violated that they might as well be taken down. This forum was once a good place for learning, and on occasion there is a good discussion with actual information sharing, but mostly its a total comedy show.
@coinbuf said:
Just two posts down from your reply two members are bashing NGC in clear violation of the forum rules. Both make statements that NGC overgrades however neither provides any proof of such claim.
NGC was grading world coins before PCGS. If the two company's standards are different, that's on PCGS for undergrading.
Rhetorical question I: Why is overgrading bad but undergrading good?
Rhetorical question II: If NGC started grading even lower than PCGS, would that make NGC better?
@PerryHall said: I've seen plenty of NGC coins with CAC stickers so I have to agree. Some people need to put down the Kool Aid. Both major services are doing a good job in my opinion.
No Kool Aid for me:
End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All Of Us
ANA LM
LSCC
EAC
FUN
I actually prefer to have the fees charged ahead of time. I have had a few times when our host actually posted the bill, I was a little on the short side and received notice that the check did not clear. Embarrassing to say the least.
oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's
Wouldn't surprise me if at some point our hosts made the determination that hosting this forum is more of a liability than asset. It would be a tremendous loss.
@gumby1234 said: @johnny010 you said "And no, I don’t think a lot of people love NGC so taking the business elsewhere isn’t ideal."
NGC has graded more than 50 million coins so they must be doing something that people like.
Yes and concernigly so. I’m reading closely and it’s clear NGC gives out higher grades and that helps drive their business. I’m sure this is a can of worms to open but when you have a low pop of coin with PCGS at a certain grade but there are plenty in NGC holders at the same or higher grade and members say be careful it’s not always easy to cross straight grade to PCGS there’s a discrepancy in the industry since they both use the same grading scale. Anyway outsider looking in but that’s what I’m seeing.
As for the OP making a hateful post I don’t know the back story here or why someone would impersonate someone else. My specific sentiment relates to growing your business and taking care of customers as demand rises. That’s normal business practice.
Ahh the incoherent ramblings of a freshly minted koolaid drinker, always good for a laugh.
I don't think this is a laughing matter when members are being disrespectful and derisive of others, nevermind our host. And I don't think many members new or old would find it a laughing matter.
100% a laugh, not a day goes by that someone on this forum is not offended, or some company (usually NGC) is bashed for no reason. Just two posts down from your reply two members are bashing NGC in clear violation of the forum rules. Both make statements that NGC overgrades however neither provides any proof of such claim.
@shish said: @gumby1234 said " If you don't like how a company conducts their business you can take your business somewhere else."
True, but where would you suggest? For example, NGC is viewed by many as much less desirable.
NGC dominates the ancients grading market and still are the biggest player in world coins grading although PCGS is catching up. My experience is that NGC is as consistent in applying ANA grading standards to US coins as PCGS. IMO, it is marketing hype that has made NGC coins less desirable to some........
I collect only world coins now.
My experience is that NGC more liberal with their grading......wish it was otherwise.
@shish said: @gumby1234 said " If you don't like how a company conducts their business you can take your business somewhere else."
True, but where would you suggest? For example, NGC is viewed by many as much less desirable.
NGC dominates the ancients grading market and still are the biggest player in world coins grading although PCGS is catching up. My experience is that NGC is as consistent in applying ANA grading standards to US coins as PCGS. IMO, it is marketing hype that has made NGC coins less desirable to some........
I collect only world coins now.
My experience is that NGC more liberal with their grading......wish it was otherwise.
I, too must agree with the above statement regarding foreign coins.
The forum rules are so often violated that they might as well be taken down. This forum was once a good place for learning, and on occasion there is a good discussion with actual information sharing, but mostly its a total comedy show.
I can't speak for @bidask but my comment referring to NGC being more liberal on foreign grading was certainly not meant to "bash" or denigrate in any way. I merely meant to provide my personal experience as informative input as related to this thread. I have very little to no experience with the grading practices of the two companies regarding domestic coin grading, but it has been my experience that NGC will consistently grade certain foreign coins one grade higher than our Hosts here at PCGS.
100% a laugh, not a day goes by that someone on this forum is not offended, or some company (usually NGC) is bashed for no reason. Just two posts down from your reply two members are bashing NGC in clear violation of the forum rules. Both make statements that NGC overgrades however neither provides any proof of such claim.
@shish said: @gumby1234 said " If you don't like how a company conducts their business you can take your business somewhere else."
True, but where would you suggest? For example, NGC is viewed by many as much less desirable.
NGC dominates the ancients grading market and still are the biggest player in world coins grading although PCGS is catching up. My experience is that NGC is as consistent in applying ANA grading standards to US coins as PCGS. IMO, it is marketing hype that has made NGC coins less desirable to some........
I collect only world coins now.
My experience is that NGC more liberal with their grading......wish it was otherwise.
@shish said: @gumby1234 said " If you don't like how a company conducts their business you can take your business somewhere else."
True, but where would you suggest? For example, NGC is viewed by many as much less desirable.
NGC dominates the ancients grading market and still are the biggest player in world coins grading although PCGS is catching up. My experience is that NGC is as consistent in applying ANA grading standards to US coins as PCGS. IMO, it is marketing hype that has made NGC coins less desirable to some........
I collect only world coins now.
My experience is that NGC more liberal with their grading......wish it was otherwise.
I, too must agree with the above statement regarding foreign coins.
The forum rules are so often violated that they might as well be taken down. This forum was once a good place for learning, and on occasion there is a good discussion with actual information sharing, but mostly its a total comedy show.
Saying that one company grades more liberally than another isn’t bashing or the same thing as stating that it “overgrades”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@gumby1234 said: @johnny010 you said "And no, I don’t think a lot of people love NGC so taking the business elsewhere isn’t ideal."
NGC has graded more than 50 million coins so they must be doing something that people like.
Yes and concernigly so. I’m reading closely and it’s clear NGC gives out higher grades and that helps drive their business. I’m sure this is a can of worms to open but when you have a low pop of coin with PCGS at a certain grade but there are plenty in NGC holders at the same or higher grade and members say be careful it’s not always easy to cross straight grade to PCGS there’s a discrepancy in the industry since they both use the same grading scale. Anyway outsider looking in but that’s what I’m seeing.
As for the OP making a hateful post I don’t know the back story here or why someone would impersonate someone else. My specific sentiment relates to growing your business and taking care of customers as demand rises. That’s normal business practice.
Ahh the incoherent ramblings of a freshly minted koolaid drinker, always good for a laugh.
I don't think this is a laughing matter when members are being disrespectful and derisive of others, nevermind our host. And I don't think many members new or old would find it a laughing matter.
100% a laugh, not a day goes by that someone on this forum is not offended, or some company (usually NGC) is bashed for no reason. Just two posts down from your reply two members are bashing NGC in clear violation of the forum rules. Both make statements that NGC overgrades however neither provides any proof of such claim.
@shish said: @gumby1234 said " If you don't like how a company conducts their business you can take your business somewhere else."
True, but where would you suggest? For example, NGC is viewed by many as much less desirable.
NGC dominates the ancients grading market and still are the biggest player in world coins grading although PCGS is catching up. My experience is that NGC is as consistent in applying ANA grading standards to US coins as PCGS. IMO, it is marketing hype that has made NGC coins less desirable to some........
I collect only world coins now.
My experience is that NGC more liberal with their grading......wish it was otherwise.
@shish said: @gumby1234 said " If you don't like how a company conducts their business you can take your business somewhere else."
True, but where would you suggest? For example, NGC is viewed by many as much less desirable.
NGC dominates the ancients grading market and still are the biggest player in world coins grading although PCGS is catching up. My experience is that NGC is as consistent in applying ANA grading standards to US coins as PCGS. IMO, it is marketing hype that has made NGC coins less desirable to some........
I collect only world coins now.
My experience is that NGC more liberal with their grading......wish it was otherwise.
I, too must agree with the above statement regarding foreign coins.
The forum rules are so often violated that they might as well be taken down. This forum was once a good place for learning, and on occasion there is a good discussion with actual information sharing, but mostly its a total comedy show.
I disagree to a point, in that there is a wealth of informative posts here (at least on the US forum)... There are a few posts here and there breaking the rules and eventually most of them get axed if not right away. I can't tell you how much I've learned in the 6 months I've been here. Most members are respectful and fairly eager to help us yn's, if not blunt at times, and I've learned stuff about coins and series I never had any interest in... But interesting details nonetheless.
As far as laughing, I agree about laughing at the uneducated and silly comments, but bashing other members isn't something to laugh at.
@johnny010 said:
And no, I don’t think a lot of people love NGC so taking the business elsewhere isn’t ideal.
Huh???????????? A lot of people must love NGC, they are doing quite fine, quick turn arounds compared to some other TPG's, and dominating in different sectors of grading in numismatics. How do you arrive at this statement?
That does not prove anything, certainly not that NGC overgraded, or if you prefer, was more liberal with the grade (really the same thing just semantics). Those comments could just as easily be offered as evidence to prove that the coins are now too conservatively graded.
To prove your point you would have to provide a standard grade definition for either the original or current grade that those coins could be compared to and thus define the grade, overwise it is just your opinion that the lower grade is the correct one. All those comments really prove is that you were willing to accept any grade that PCGS would give to have the coins in that plastic. And, considering that NGC is considered by the market to be the leader in the foreign coin marketplace at this time, that you may have lost considerable value in the process.
Bty, I checked the first NGC cert # you reference in your comments NGC cert#3589850-007. This still shows as an active cert number on the NGC cert verification page, perhaps you should notify NGC that all those coins are no longer in those holders.
People are always complaining about the pop reports being wrong because nobody ever takes the time to notify either TPG of situations like this.
My experience is that NGC more liberal with their grading......wish it was otherwise.
My experience is that NGC and PCGS are fairly consistent with each other, based on hundreds of submissions, crossings, etc. I would like to see your evidence, please post it here.
Continuing the digression from OP (thankfully)...the market bears out that PCGS slabs regularly sell for a premium over NGC slabs and when stickered by CAC another bump up in value generally occurs...just check Coin Facts. So it really doesn't matter what one indiviual feels about a TPGs grading practices, the market has already spoken.
Are there any statistics available as to the number of crossover submission requests sent to each company; namely crossover submissions to PCGS requesting crossover grading from NGC slabbed coins and to NGC requesting crossover grading from PCGS certified coins?
Just wondering...
@gumby1234 said: @johnny010 you said "And no, I don’t think a lot of people love NGC so taking the business elsewhere isn’t ideal."
NGC has graded more than 50 million coins so they must be doing something that people like.
Yes and concernigly so. I’m reading closely and it’s clear NGC gives out higher grades and that helps drive their business. I’m sure this is a can of worms to open but when you have a low pop of coin with PCGS at a certain grade but there are plenty in NGC holders at the same or higher grade and members say be careful it’s not always easy to cross straight grade to PCGS there’s a discrepancy in the industry since they both use the same grading scale. Anyway outsider looking in but that’s what I’m seeing.
As for the OP making a hateful post I don’t know the back story here or why someone would impersonate someone else. My specific sentiment relates to growing your business and taking care of customers as demand rises. That’s normal business practice.
Ahh the incoherent ramblings of a freshly minted koolaid drinker, always good for a laugh.
I don't think this is a laughing matter when members are being disrespectful and derisive of others, nevermind our host. And I don't think many members new or old would find it a laughing matter.
My experience is that NGC more liberal with their grading......wish it was otherwise.
My experience is that NGC and PCGS are fairly consistent with each other, based on hundreds of submissions, crossings, etc. I would like to see your evidence, please post it here.
If they were consistently lower, they would never cross at grade.
@ColonelKlinck said:
Are there any statistics available as to the number of crossover submission requests sent to each company; namely crossover submissions to PCGS requesting crossover grading from NGC slabbed coins and to NGC requesting crossover grading from PCGS certified coins?
Just wondering...
You can Google it and find some data. I did this morning. The cross rate is pretty high but it's not a random sample. People don't generally try to cross coins that they think won't.
Submit 20 random coins, see if they cross. Then send 20 the other way. Let us know what you discover.
@Hhhinkleiii said:
Continuing the digression from OP (thankfully)...the market bears out that PCGS slabs regularly sell for a premium over NGC slabs and when stickered by CAC another bump up in value generally occurs...just check Coin Facts. So it really doesn't matter what one indiviual feels about a TPGs grading practices, the market has already spoken.
This is true in the aggregate but not necessarily true in all sectors.
I’m not assuming that the policy change has even taken place. So far, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone confirm the OP’s claim. That said, if it is true, I think it’s unfortunate.
I always thought charging a CC before shipping product was contrary the CC merchant agreement. Most online retailers follow this principle.
While terms stating the CC will be charged upon receipt of the order have been a part of the PCGS submission agreement for quite a while, they have never chosen to do so (unlike NGC, which does charge upon receipt).
However, given the new owners of the company, such a change would hardly be surprising.
Especially so now that a lot of interest can be made on working capital
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Bty, I checked the first NGC cert # you reference in your comments NGC cert#3589850-007. This still shows as an active cert number on the NGC cert verification page, perhaps you should notify NGC that all those coins are no longer in those holders.
People are always complaining about the pop reports being wrong because nobody ever takes the time to notify either TPG of situations like this.
I buried my Tin Star along with my guns in the back yard years ago, so I will leave you the honor.
@Hhhinkleiii said:
Continuing the digression from OP (thankfully)...the market bears out that PCGS slabs regularly sell for a premium over NGC slabs and when stickered by CAC another bump up in value generally occurs...just check Coin Facts. So it really doesn't matter what one indiviual feels about a TPGs grading practices, the market has already spoken.
This is true in the aggregate but not necessarily true in all sectors.
As well- take that PCGS coin with a sticker, crack it out and go to sell it and see if you can get the same amount for it raw as you could have when it was in the holder.
@Hhhinkleiii said:
Continuing the digression from OP (thankfully)...the market bears out that PCGS slabs regularly sell for a premium over NGC slabs and when stickered by CAC another bump up in value generally occurs...just check Coin Facts. So it really doesn't matter what one indiviual feels about a TPGs grading practices, the market has already spoken.
This is true in the aggregate but not necessarily true in all sectors.
As well- take that PCGS coin with a sticker, crack it out and go to sell it and see if you can get the same amount for it raw as you could have when it was in the holder.
True dat. Even though we buy the coin not the holder...
@ColonelKlinck said:
Are there any statistics available as to the number of crossover submission requests sent to each company; namely crossover submissions to PCGS requesting crossover grading from NGC slabbed coins and to NGC requesting crossover grading from PCGS certified coins?
Just wondering...
This is the closest you will get from PCGS (all crossovers).
@Hhhinkleiii said:
Crossover success rate seems to be more challenging in the last year or 2. In years past, I can recall success rate being in the 40s.
In order for that to have any meaning, the relative quality of the coins being sent for crossover would have to remain consistent. I bet there's no record of that.
you're exactly right about submission consistency, but the point is that it's generally difficult to cross into a PCGS slab...and that's why I think the best coins eventually end up in PCGS slabs. Would love to see NGC stats if any has access.
I don't know about official NGC stats, but a poster on their message board indicated less than half of his PCGS->NGC crossover attempts were successful.
edited to add.. another poster's experience-
I submitted two coins to NGC for crossover:
1909 S Lincoln Cent PCGS MS64RD. NGC did not crossover, stated "NOT RD".
1931 S Lincoln Cent PCGS MS63RD. NGC did not crossover, stated "ALTERED COLOR".
@ColonelKlinck said: Bty, I checked the first NGC cert # you reference in your comments NGC cert#3589850-007. This still shows as an active cert number on the NGC cert verification page, perhaps you should notify NGC that all those coins are no longer in those holders.
People are always complaining about the pop reports being wrong because nobody ever takes the time to notify either TPG of situations like this.
I buried my Tin Star along with my guns in the back yard years ago, so I will leave you the honor.
If it was possible I would be happy to help you out with that task, however, I do not own the coins nor do I have the NGC cert tags or crossover paperwork that would be necessary to provide to NGC as proof to have the certs deactivated.
@MasonG said:
I don't know about official NGC stats, but a poster on their message board indicated less than half of his PCGS->NGC crossover attempts were successful.
edited to add.. another poster's experience-
I submitted two coins to NGC for crossover:
1909 S Lincoln Cent PCGS MS64RD. NGC did not crossover, stated "NOT RD".
1931 S Lincoln Cent PCGS MS63RD. NGC did not crossover, stated "ALTERED COLOR".
FWIW...
About five or six years ago when NGC had briefly closed their registry to PCGS coins, I attempted to cross a handful (5 or 6) of PCGS coins to NGC to use in the registry. All were high grade MS67 type coins and about half had CAC green beans, not one crossed. That showed me that the crossover game is just too much about the politics and I have not tried another crossover at either service nor will I in the future, better ways to spend my budget.
@ColonelKlinck said: Bty, I checked the first NGC cert # you reference in your comments NGC cert#3589850-007. This still shows as an active cert number on the NGC cert verification page, perhaps you should notify NGC that all those coins are no longer in those holders.
People are always complaining about the pop reports being wrong because nobody ever takes the time to notify either TPG of situations like this.
I buried my Tin Star along with my guns in the back yard years ago, so I will leave you the honor.
If it was possible I would be happy to help you out with that task, however, I do not own the coins nor do I have the NGC cert tags or crossover paperwork that would be necessary to provide to NGC as proof to have the certs deactivated.
@ColonelKlinck said: Bty, I checked the first NGC cert # you reference in your comments NGC cert#3589850-007. This still shows as an active cert number on the NGC cert verification page, perhaps you should notify NGC that all those coins are no longer in those holders.
People are always complaining about the pop reports being wrong because nobody ever takes the time to notify either TPG of situations like this.
I buried my Tin Star along with my guns in the back yard years ago, so I will leave you the honor.
If it was possible I would be happy to help you out with that task, however, I do not own the coins nor do I have the NGC cert tags or crossover paperwork that would be necessary to provide to NGC as proof to have the certs deactivated.
Ditto
The coins or the registry set in question are not mine.
@MasonG said:
I don't know about official NGC stats, but a poster on their message board indicated less than half of his PCGS->NGC crossover attempts were successful.
edited to add.. another poster's experience-
I submitted two coins to NGC for crossover:
1909 S Lincoln Cent PCGS MS64RD. NGC did not crossover, stated "NOT RD".
1931 S Lincoln Cent PCGS MS63RD. NGC did not crossover, stated "ALTERED COLOR".
FWIW...
What's it worth? In all honesty, the first experience is more telling than the other 2; however little use without knowing if it was 5 or 10 or 100 attempts tho. The 2nd one could have changed toning in the holder, and the third one... Who knows.
Its been said ad nauseum... Grading is subjective. Who knows what would have happened if they cracked and submitted? Or attempted again? There are so many stories of people cracking and retrying and getting better results (or worse).
Without any real hard data it's really all conjecture. It seems generally accepted that for all intents and purposes they are both very similar by most... Some prefer one over the other. Your mileage may vary of course!
@MasonG said:
I don't know about official NGC stats, but a poster on their message board indicated less than half of his PCGS->NGC crossover attempts were successful.
edited to add.. another poster's experience-
I submitted two coins to NGC for crossover:
1909 S Lincoln Cent PCGS MS64RD. NGC did not crossover, stated "NOT RD".
1931 S Lincoln Cent PCGS MS63RD. NGC did not crossover, stated "ALTERED COLOR".
FWIW...
What's it worth? In all honesty, the first experience is more telling than the other 2; however little use without knowing if it was 5 or 10 or 100 attempts tho. The 2nd one could have changed toning in the holder, and the third one... Who knows.
Its been said ad nauseum... Grading is subjective. Who knows what would have happened if they cracked and submitted? Or attempted again? There are so many stories of people cracking and retrying and getting better results (or worse).
Without any real hard data it's really all conjecture. It seems generally accepted that for all intents and purposes they are both very similar by most... Some prefer one over the other. Your mileage may vary of course!
Basically true. The market perception is that PCGS is somewhat more strict which usually results in a price difference. Quantifying that is a tricky thing and it certainly isn't an absolute. To the CAC point, it may be more about the "C" coins than the A/B coins in holders.
As @MasonG pointed out, at least implicitly, it's also different to say what the "right grade" is. If PCGS is so strict, why does anyone ever ask for reconsideration? Why is there not a 100% cross rate at NGC? Why does any NGC coin ever CAC? Etc.
I have 6 submissions received by our hosts 12/8. I was not billed for them. One modern value submission was returned to me 12/28. That one was billed when it shipped
@PapiNE said:
There's another TPG coming and there seems to be excitement about it within the community. I would think it would ease waiting times but it also may cause others to cut staff. I've recently had to correct two of their mistakes so they're certainly not flawless and more competition may be a positive.
Not going to happen. Their secret sauce is that ALL coins will be graded by the same three people with a single umpire if they don't agree. How many coins can that group grade per day or per week? If one takes a vacation day, does the whole organization shut down?
I don’t believe the new company will be grading bullion, so that should cut down on several thousand “coins” per day.
@MasonG said:
I don't know about official NGC stats, but a poster on their message board indicated less than half of his PCGS->NGC crossover attempts were successful.
edited to add.. another poster's experience-
I submitted two coins to NGC for crossover:
1909 S Lincoln Cent PCGS MS64RD. NGC did not crossover, stated "NOT RD".
1931 S Lincoln Cent PCGS MS63RD. NGC did not crossover, stated "ALTERED COLOR".
FWIW...
What's it worth? In all honesty, the first experience is more telling than the other 2; however little use without knowing if it was 5 or 10 or 100 attempts tho. The 2nd one could have changed toning in the holder, and the third one... Who knows.
Its been said ad nauseum... Grading is subjective. Who knows what would have happened if they cracked and submitted? Or attempted again? There are so many stories of people cracking and retrying and getting better results (or worse).
Without any real hard data it's really all conjecture. It seems generally accepted that for all intents and purposes they are both very similar by most... Some prefer one over the other. Your mileage may vary of course!
P.S. It's also worth asking whether the market perception is real. The CAC experience really makes one wonder how much subjectivity and urban legend goes into some of this, especially with all the +/star/PQ designations. PCGS and NGC have "+" designations which makes the distinctions rather fine. You've got, for example 64/64+/65. Let's consider a straight 64 at both services.
Now we've got an NGC 64 and a PCGS 64. Many people here wants to say that the PCGS 64 is better than the NGC 64. So, we're supposed to assume that the NGC 64 is, at best a 63+. Let's send them to CAC. CAC passes both of them and we get green beans. We've now got an NGC 64 CAC and a PCGS 64 CAC.
CAC ignores any + grades, but NGC and PCGS have them. So it should not be the case that the PCGS 64 is really a 64+. CAC has claimed them both to be solid 64's. So, for all intents and purposes, we have two solid 64s, one from each service. Yet, the PCGS 64 CAC will often sell for more than the NGC 64 CAC in many US series. Is that a rational interpretation of the quality of the coin? Is that a rational interpretation of NGC and PCGS? After all, CAC claims both coins to be equivalent. So, why?
One possible "rational" explanation is that there are more buyers who simply prefer to have a PCGS collection and they don't want to go to the trouble to cross the NGC coin. That is a rational choice. It is also, however, a rational choice that does not in any way involve the actual quality of the COIN itself or its grade.
If you want to tell me that this market preference is due to grading standards, please explain to me how you know the NGC CAC to be inferior to the PCGS CAC.
The market is the market. I'm a firm believer that you should never argue with the market. However, that is not the same as saying that I fully understand the market or that there are no "irrational" sentiments in the market.
@gumby1234 said: @johnny010 you said "And no, I don’t think a lot of people love NGC so taking the business elsewhere isn’t ideal."
NGC has graded more than 50 million coins so they must be doing something that people like.
Yes and concernigly so. I’m reading closely and it’s clear NGC gives out higher grades and that helps drive their business. I’m sure this is a can of worms to open but when you have a low pop of coin with PCGS at a certain grade but there are plenty in NGC holders at the same or higher grade and members say be careful it’s not always easy to cross straight grade to PCGS there’s a discrepancy in the industry since they both use the same grading scale. Anyway outsider looking in but that’s what I’m seeing.
As for the OP making a hateful post I don’t know the back story here or why someone would impersonate someone else. My specific sentiment relates to growing your business and taking care of customers as demand rises. That’s normal business practice.
Ahh the incoherent ramblings of a freshly minted koolaid drinker, always good for a laugh.
Lots of koolaid drinkers around here. Cacs comes to mind. RGDS!
@BryceM said:
Wouldn't surprise me if at some point our hosts made the determination that hosting this forum is more of a liability than asset. It would be a tremendous loss.
Absolutely. There have been times in the past where the same thing was brought up, when there were lawsuits, manipulations, complaints, etc. etc.
So... why does the forum still exist? certainly it is a convenience and benefit for customers and those in the hobby. But also.. it is a valuable tool for PCGS. Many corporations pay big bucks to hire consultants, etc... to do surveys, etc.... to determine what is happening out there that may have relevance to their business. This forum has value in that respect.... it is a good way to obtain info on how to improve their business, success of products, etc.
So I am sure PCGS has interest in keeping the forum going. HOWEVER.... like everything in life, benefits must be compared to liabilities, etc. When the cons outnumber the pros.... then may be time to shut down the forum. In the case of the OPs posting, while PCGS may BAM this thread, the posting does still give some feedback to the company.
Comments
I don't think this is a laughing matter when members are being disrespectful and derisive of others, nevermind our host. And I don't think many members new or old would find it a laughing matter.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
I always thought charging a CC before shipping product was contrary the CC merchant agreement. Most online retailers follow this principle.
While terms stating the CC will be charged upon receipt of the order have been a part of the PCGS submission agreement for quite a while, they have never chosen to do so (unlike NGC, which does charge upon receipt).
However, given the new owners of the company, such a change would hardly be surprising.
I collect only world coins now.
My experience is that NGC more liberal with their grading......wish it was otherwise.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I, too must agree with the above statement regarding foreign coins.
Six figures in grading fees? Did you ever consider that you are part of the problem so now, I blame you
Happy New Year to everyone! Yes, everyone
Just the opposite for me. I prefer NGC holders for smaller coins. Also the informed recognize recent tightening of grading standards at NGC. And don't forget NGC coins have been given CAC stickers as well.
100% a laugh, not a day goes by that someone on this forum is not offended, or some company (usually NGC) is bashed for no reason. Just two posts down from your reply two members are bashing NGC in clear violation of the forum rules. Both make statements that NGC overgrades however neither provides any proof of such claim.
The forum rules are so often violated that they might as well be taken down. This forum was once a good place for learning, and on occasion there is a good discussion with actual information sharing, but mostly its a total comedy show.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
NGC was grading world coins before PCGS. If the two company's standards are different, that's on PCGS for undergrading.
Rhetorical question I: Why is overgrading bad but undergrading good?
Rhetorical question II: If NGC started grading even lower than PCGS, would that make NGC better?
@PerryHall said: I've seen plenty of NGC coins with CAC stickers so I have to agree. Some people need to put down the Kool Aid. Both major services are doing a good job in my opinion.
No Kool Aid for me:
End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All Of Us
ANA LM
LSCC
EAC
FUN
I suspect the bigger money maker for PCGS is grading sports cards. Perhaps their focus is there for now.
I actually prefer to have the fees charged ahead of time. I have had a few times when our host actually posted the bill, I was a little on the short side and received notice that the check did not clear. Embarrassing to say the least.
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Wouldn't surprise me if at some point our hosts made the determination that hosting this forum is more of a liability than asset. It would be a tremendous loss.
I can't speak for @bidask but my comment referring to NGC being more liberal on foreign grading was certainly not meant to "bash" or denigrate in any way. I merely meant to provide my personal experience as informative input as related to this thread. I have very little to no experience with the grading practices of the two companies regarding domestic coin grading, but it has been my experience that NGC will consistently grade certain foreign coins one grade higher than our Hosts here at PCGS.
As to "Proof" of such a claim, one might see the "Comments" section of the attached page.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/germany/west-germany/german-5-mark-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1951-1974/alltimeset/108104
Saying that one company grades more liberally than another isn’t bashing or the same thing as stating that it “overgrades”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I disagree to a point, in that there is a wealth of informative posts here (at least on the US forum)... There are a few posts here and there breaking the rules and eventually most of them get axed if not right away. I can't tell you how much I've learned in the 6 months I've been here. Most members are respectful and fairly eager to help us yn's, if not blunt at times, and I've learned stuff about coins and series I never had any interest in... But interesting details nonetheless.
As far as laughing, I agree about laughing at the uneducated and silly comments, but bashing other members isn't something to laugh at.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
Surprised this thread made it this many days! Keep up the good work gentlemen and gentlewomen.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
Huh???????????? A lot of people must love NGC, they are doing quite fine, quick turn arounds compared to some other TPG's, and dominating in different sectors of grading in numismatics. How do you arrive at this statement?
.
That does not prove anything, certainly not that NGC overgraded, or if you prefer, was more liberal with the grade (really the same thing just semantics). Those comments could just as easily be offered as evidence to prove that the coins are now too conservatively graded.
To prove your point you would have to provide a standard grade definition for either the original or current grade that those coins could be compared to and thus define the grade, overwise it is just your opinion that the lower grade is the correct one. All those comments really prove is that you were willing to accept any grade that PCGS would give to have the coins in that plastic. And, considering that NGC is considered by the market to be the leader in the foreign coin marketplace at this time, that you may have lost considerable value in the process.
Bty, I checked the first NGC cert # you reference in your comments NGC cert#3589850-007. This still shows as an active cert number on the NGC cert verification page, perhaps you should notify NGC that all those coins are no longer in those holders.
People are always complaining about the pop reports being wrong because nobody ever takes the time to notify either TPG of situations like this.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
My experience is that NGC and PCGS are fairly consistent with each other, based on hundreds of submissions, crossings, etc. I would like to see your evidence, please post it here.
To stay profitable and seek growth companies will do what they think is necessary. That may or may not align with certain peoples wishes.
Continuing the digression from OP (thankfully)...the market bears out that PCGS slabs regularly sell for a premium over NGC slabs and when stickered by CAC another bump up in value generally occurs...just check Coin Facts. So it really doesn't matter what one indiviual feels about a TPGs grading practices, the market has already spoken.
Are there any statistics available as to the number of crossover submission requests sent to each company; namely crossover submissions to PCGS requesting crossover grading from NGC slabbed coins and to NGC requesting crossover grading from PCGS certified coins?
Just wondering...
Agreed
If they were consistently lower, they would never cross at grade.
You can Google it and find some data. I did this morning. The cross rate is pretty high but it's not a random sample. People don't generally try to cross coins that they think won't.
Submit 20 random coins, see if they cross. Then send 20 the other way. Let us know what you discover.
You could also look at CAC success numbers.
This is true in the aggregate but not necessarily true in all sectors.
Especially so now that a lot of interest can be made on working capital
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Bty, I checked the first NGC cert # you reference in your comments NGC cert#3589850-007. This still shows as an active cert number on the NGC cert verification page, perhaps you should notify NGC that all those coins are no longer in those holders.
People are always complaining about the pop reports being wrong because nobody ever takes the time to notify either TPG of situations like this.
I buried my Tin Star along with my guns in the back yard years ago, so I will leave you the honor.
As well- take that PCGS coin with a sticker, crack it out and go to sell it and see if you can get the same amount for it raw as you could have when it was in the holder.
True dat. Even though we buy the coin not the holder...
This is the closest you will get from PCGS (all crossovers).
https://www.pcgs.com/statistics
Crossover success rate seems to be more challenging in the last year or 2. In years past, I can recall success rate being in the 40s.
In order for that to have any meaning, the relative quality of the coins being sent for crossover would have to remain consistent. I bet there's no record of that.
you're exactly right about submission consistency, but the point is that it's generally difficult to cross into a PCGS slab...and that's why I think the best coins eventually end up in PCGS slabs. Would love to see NGC stats if any has access.
I don't know about official NGC stats, but a poster on their message board indicated less than half of his PCGS->NGC crossover attempts were successful.
edited to add.. another poster's experience-
I submitted two coins to NGC for crossover:
1909 S Lincoln Cent PCGS MS64RD. NGC did not crossover, stated "NOT RD".
1931 S Lincoln Cent PCGS MS63RD. NGC did not crossover, stated "ALTERED COLOR".
FWIW...
If it was possible I would be happy to help you out with that task, however, I do not own the coins nor do I have the NGC cert tags or crossover paperwork that would be necessary to provide to NGC as proof to have the certs deactivated.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
About five or six years ago when NGC had briefly closed their registry to PCGS coins, I attempted to cross a handful (5 or 6) of PCGS coins to NGC to use in the registry. All were high grade MS67 type coins and about half had CAC green beans, not one crossed. That showed me that the crossover game is just too much about the politics and I have not tried another crossover at either service nor will I in the future, better ways to spend my budget.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Ditto
The coins or the registry set in question are not mine.
What's it worth? In all honesty, the first experience is more telling than the other 2; however little use without knowing if it was 5 or 10 or 100 attempts tho. The 2nd one could have changed toning in the holder, and the third one... Who knows.
Its been said ad nauseum... Grading is subjective. Who knows what would have happened if they cracked and submitted? Or attempted again? There are so many stories of people cracking and retrying and getting better results (or worse).
Without any real hard data it's really all conjecture. It seems generally accepted that for all intents and purposes they are both very similar by most... Some prefer one over the other. Your mileage may vary of course!
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
Basically true. The market perception is that PCGS is somewhat more strict which usually results in a price difference. Quantifying that is a tricky thing and it certainly isn't an absolute. To the CAC point, it may be more about the "C" coins than the A/B coins in holders.
As @MasonG pointed out, at least implicitly, it's also different to say what the "right grade" is. If PCGS is so strict, why does anyone ever ask for reconsideration? Why is there not a 100% cross rate at NGC? Why does any NGC coin ever CAC? Etc.
I have 6 submissions received by our hosts 12/8. I was not billed for them. One modern value submission was returned to me 12/28. That one was billed when it shipped
I don’t believe the new company will be grading bullion, so that should cut down on several thousand “coins” per day.
P.S. It's also worth asking whether the market perception is real. The CAC experience really makes one wonder how much subjectivity and urban legend goes into some of this, especially with all the +/star/PQ designations. PCGS and NGC have "+" designations which makes the distinctions rather fine. You've got, for example 64/64+/65. Let's consider a straight 64 at both services.
Now we've got an NGC 64 and a PCGS 64. Many people here wants to say that the PCGS 64 is better than the NGC 64. So, we're supposed to assume that the NGC 64 is, at best a 63+. Let's send them to CAC. CAC passes both of them and we get green beans. We've now got an NGC 64 CAC and a PCGS 64 CAC.
CAC ignores any + grades, but NGC and PCGS have them. So it should not be the case that the PCGS 64 is really a 64+. CAC has claimed them both to be solid 64's. So, for all intents and purposes, we have two solid 64s, one from each service. Yet, the PCGS 64 CAC will often sell for more than the NGC 64 CAC in many US series. Is that a rational interpretation of the quality of the coin? Is that a rational interpretation of NGC and PCGS? After all, CAC claims both coins to be equivalent. So, why?
One possible "rational" explanation is that there are more buyers who simply prefer to have a PCGS collection and they don't want to go to the trouble to cross the NGC coin. That is a rational choice. It is also, however, a rational choice that does not in any way involve the actual quality of the COIN itself or its grade.
If you want to tell me that this market preference is due to grading standards, please explain to me how you know the NGC CAC to be inferior to the PCGS CAC.
The market is the market. I'm a firm believer that you should never argue with the market. However, that is not the same as saying that I fully understand the market or that there are no "irrational" sentiments in the market.
Lots of koolaid drinkers around here. Cacs comes to mind. RGDS!
Absolutely. There have been times in the past where the same thing was brought up, when there were lawsuits, manipulations, complaints, etc. etc.
So... why does the forum still exist? certainly it is a convenience and benefit for customers and those in the hobby. But also.. it is a valuable tool for PCGS. Many corporations pay big bucks to hire consultants, etc... to do surveys, etc.... to determine what is happening out there that may have relevance to their business. This forum has value in that respect.... it is a good way to obtain info on how to improve their business, success of products, etc.
So I am sure PCGS has interest in keeping the forum going. HOWEVER.... like everything in life, benefits must be compared to liabilities, etc. When the cons outnumber the pros.... then may be time to shut down the forum. In the case of the OPs posting, while PCGS may BAM this thread, the posting does still give some feedback to the company.
Good question. I guess the idea is that overall, lower grades are good for everybody else but me.
Im going to open up a Kool Aid stand. 10 different flavors. $2 per cup. I will be rich.
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Long weekend, mods are off.