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Question regarding the toning on this 1945 Lincoln Cent.

jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,264 ✭✭✭✭✭

I placed a 1945 pds set in a cigar box many years ago, and sold the S coin years later untoned still redbrown. I opened the box a couple of years ago and found the P mint coin looking like this. The D mint coin was not nearly as vibrant as this one, more rim pinking. As they were put in with no toning and RB color, would this toning be considered natural, I know that it was without any help other than the cigar box. Sorry not a good photographer, just took these pics with a PowerShot SX530HS and it took quite a bit of getting the light right to capture the color(one incandescent and one ottlite.
Jim



When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain

Comments

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,850 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And that is why the AT/NT debate is silly...

    Is cigar box toning more or less natural than album toning? If you put another set of coins in there intentionally to tone them is that then AT while this is NT? If you live in AZ and leave the cigar box in a shed, is that then AT target than NT because it happened faster?

    The toning is "artificial" since caused by chemicals in the cigar box but probably "market acceptable ". However it wouldn't be surprising if PCGS graded it questionable color 40% of the time.

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    And that is why the AT/NT debate is silly...

    The toning is "artificial" since caused by chemicals in the cigar box but probably "market acceptable ". However it wouldn't be surprising if PCGS graded it questionable color 40% of the time.

    isn't ALL toning caused by chemicals?

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,022 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Regardless of how the toning occurred and whatever label one wishes to apply, it looks natural to me.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,264 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Intent will never be a factor in determining the AT/NT debates, as it is so difficult to determine. These debates are mostly for people and not for answers. A question regarding patina being natural or being artificial hardly ever comes up, yet is it not the same thing? Both are caused by time. Yet when a coin is artificially toned in a frying pan or an oven the colors tend to be different than in a "cigar box" for years. Also, the rinse comes into play, the box held many lincolns but only a few had toning at all. So perhaps the toned ones had been dipped/rinsed or met some liquid that caused the toning.
    My only question was do the 1945 Lincoln look naturally toned or not?
    Thank you,
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,850 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @davewesen said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    And that is why the AT/NT debate is silly...

    The toning is "artificial" since caused by chemicals in the cigar box but probably "market acceptable ". However it wouldn't be surprising if PCGS graded it questionable color 40% of the time.

    isn't ALL toning caused by chemicals?

    Yes. But people make a distinction between what's in the air, in albums, in canvas bags and in other places. You could argue that all toning in "natural" or all toning is "artificial ".

  • JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,812 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would think if it were in the box for YEARS it would be natural toning. Your cent has a nice balance of toning.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,022 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Jimnight said:
    I would think if it were in the box for YEARS it would be natural toning. Your cent has a nice balance of toning.

    What difference would it make (regarding “natural”) if the coin had been in the box for days, weeks or years?

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ah the old AT/NT debate..... been going on for as long as I have been on these forums... and likely much longer. Tarnish is tarnish.... The cause can vary - environment can be induced, chemicals, humidity, temperature - all can contribute to appearance and speed of tarnish. All tarnish is environmental damage to the surface of the coin. Some damage is more attractive than other appearances. And the perceived cardinal sin of someone, other than Mother Nature, contributing to the damage, arouses the condemnation of collectors. In fifty years, the debate will still rage.... Collect what you like. Cheers, RickO

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,850 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @Jimnight said:
    I would think if it were in the box for YEARS it would be natural toning. Your cent has a nice balance of toning.

    What difference would it make (regarding “natural”) if the coin had been in the box for days, weeks or years?

    That is kind of the issue with a lot of AT. If I put it in a low grade cardboard album, I get "natural" album toning. If i put it in the same album at elevated temperatures to speed up the process, I get "artificial " toning. [In the eyes of many, of course. ]

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,264 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It will most likely always come down to what is market acceptable and that would ultimately be determined by the Grading Companies and the buyers. Which greatly determines value. As stated before, it is nearly impossible to determine intent, so hard to use that as a calculator. Just an opinion.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,850 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jesbroken said:
    It will most likely always come down to what is market acceptable and that would ultimately be determined by the Grading Companies and the buyers. Which greatly determines value. As stated before, it is nearly impossible to determine intent, so hard to use that as a calculator. Just an opinion.
    Jim

    That really is the long and short of it.

  • JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,812 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @Jimnight said:
    I would think if it were in the box for YEARS it would be natural toning. Your cent has a nice balance of toning.

    What difference would it make (regarding “natural”) if the coin had been in the box for days, weeks or years?

    I would think it would come down to intent (i.e. A packet of sulfur in the box could accelerate toning more quickly.

  • joeykoinsjoeykoins Posts: 14,853 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Jim,
    I like your cent.
    It's Beautiful, dude.
    I think it would receive the cherish straight grade!
    <3

    "Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!

    --- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,022 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Jimnight said:

    @MFeld said:

    @Jimnight said:
    I would think if it were in the box for YEARS it would be natural toning. Your cent has a nice balance of toning.

    What difference would it make (regarding “natural”) if the coin had been in the box for days, weeks or years?

    I would think it would come down to intent (i.e. A packet of sulfur in the box could accelerate toning more quickly.

    But intent isn’t usually known and some coins tone much more quickly than others, without intentional assistance.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,812 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @Jimnight said:

    @MFeld said:

    @Jimnight said:
    I would think if it were in the box for YEARS it would be natural toning. Your cent has a nice balance of toning.

    What difference would it make (regarding “natural”) if the coin had been in the box for days, weeks or years?

    I would think it would come down to intent (i.e. A packet of sulfur in the box could accelerate toning more quickly.

    But intent isn’t usually known and some coins tone much more quickly than others, without intentional assistance.

    I agree.

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