They did some really crazy stuff in photoshop to this coin.
I tried to reverse it myself but I couldn't even get close to bringing that image back to what a normal image should look like. I suspect the coin has been cleaned, but I have no way of backing up my claim from the image.
It's possible two different fat cats with virtually zero feedback happened to enter bids at the last second. It's also likely the progress of the auction surprised someone who then used a couple of "burner" accounts to nuke it and effectively cancel the auction.
I'm guessing the auction result the OP posted didn't result in an actual transfer of ownership of this coin. It could all be 100% legit too - just seems weird.
It's too bad Watch Count is not capable of finding very suspicious correlations with bidders on items any more, but the lack of prior bidding in that auction is clearly indicative of some type of shill activity. In many years I have never seen smart or real money chasing items with that level of speculation. As one dealer told me speculators always lose anyway. Maybe people are willing to risk an extra $20, $50 or so but not hundreds or thousands.
I can't knock it. If someone has that kind of bread to throw around got bless the seller, he's the one who has much to celebrate.
My first thought was, how many nice looking 1921 peace dollars could I buy raw that might end up with the same result if I were patient?
I'm happy for both parties.
I also have another theory, I am sure I'm not the first to think of this but even if I am I'm going to throw it out their.
I can be very cynical at times but I usually ignore myself.
This time I will share my thoughts.
Have you ever considered that people make it look like some things not just coins are going up in value just to set the stage hoping for a following so they can cash in?
What are your thoughts on this?
@logger7 said:
It's too bad Watch Count is not capable of finding very suspicious correlations with bidders on items any more, but the lack of prior bidding in that auction is clearly indicative of some type of shill activity. In many years I have never seen smart or real money chasing items with that level of speculation. As one dealer told me speculators always lose anyway. Maybe people are willing to risk an extra $20, $50 or so but not hundreds or thousands.
If someone told you that “speculators always lose money”, he exaggerated greatly and is proved wrong on a daily basis.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@BryceM said:
The last two bids are indeed interesting.
It's possible two different fat cats with virtually zero feedback happened to enter bids at the last second. It's also likely the progress of the auction surprised someone who then used a couple of "burner" accounts to nuke it and effectively cancel the auction.
I'm guessing the auction result the OP posted didn't result in an actual transfer of ownership of this coin. It could all be 100% legit too - just seems weird.
There have been busy bodies in this forum who have burner accounts they use to pester sellers who they feel are misrepresenting
I don't see any 1921 dates in the picture..........including the one that's face up. All the coins have the reverse side showing. The purported 1921 in the pic has the last number of the date obscured by the roll.
Does all of this seem just a little strange and coincidental to you?
Pete
I see a date of 1923 on one of the coins in the roll.
I don't see any 1921 dates in the picture..........including the one that's face up. All the coins have the reverse side showing. The purported 1921 in the pic has the last number of the date obscured by the roll.
Does all of this seem just a little strange and coincidental to you?
Pete
I see a date of 1923 on one of the coins in the roll.
You're right. I missed it, and the date is in plain sight.
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
@scotty1419 said:
As was shared in the bid details - It looks like the $3k range was legitimate then after that 2 new bidders inflated to the final result.
Flashy finish but meaningless to me as I strongly doubt it's legit.
A review of the bidding indicates that the winning bidder (lr) placed his winning bid 5 days 22 hours 54 minutes PRIOR to the bid closing. The underbidder (1c) placed numerous bids 3 days 13 hours 42 minutes prior to the bid closing with a final bid of $9,500 pushing the winning bid to $9,600. There was no bidding in the last three days prior to the bid closing.
Why would someone place a nuclear bid five days prior to the bid closing? Perhaps the underbidder was a shill just jacking up the price until the price became stupid and they were OK with the result. And this all happened over three days prior to the bid closed. Not exactly a last minute bid of desperation. I suspect the listor placed the nuclear bid to a very high level because the coin was not really for sale anymore.
I don't see any 1921 dates in the picture..........including the one that's face up. All the coins have the reverse side showing. The purported 1921 in the pic has the last number of the date obscured by the roll.
Does all of this seem just a little strange and coincidental to you?
Pete
I see a date of 1923 on one of the coins in the roll.
You're right. I missed it, and the date is in plain sight.
Pete
That's the stock photo they use for every peace dollar that is "from original roll"...
I don't see any 1921 dates in the picture..........including the one that's face up. All the coins have the reverse side showing. The purported 1921 in the pic has the last number of the date obscured by the roll.
Does all of this seem just a little strange and coincidental to you?
Pete
I see a date of 1923 on one of the coins in the roll.
You're right. I missed it, and the date is in plain sight.
Pete
That's the stock photo they use for every peace dollar that is "from original roll"...
This seller has an UNLIMITED supply of (Never Opened) coin rolls. Of course this is pure BS. What we have here, in my opinion, is a seller that cracks open problem coins and claims they are from a never opened roll. I bought a raw buffalo nickel from this outfit and it came to me with cleaning hairlines along with it being laminated. I left him negative feedback that was removed by Ebay.
This seller is a Crook with a capital C. Stay clear
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
The coin in the OP has significant damage on the neck and cheek, and some apparent scattered hits in the obverse fields that are masked by the dark spots.
@gumby1234 said:
The seller has more original rolls of every type of coin than is humanly possible. Also the pics they use always look like that. Overexposed maybe or too much lighting?
I would guess they boost the contrast and that’s making it seem like it has intense luster.
The fact this seller has so many positive feedbacks indicates the number of amateur ignorant coin collectors that buy on eBay. I know some of you guys say you got a decent coin, nothing is 100% but this comes close.
@BryceM said:
Well, they weren't issued in rolls...... so that's already one problem. Secondary rolls could have been put together, but that's a different thing.
The photos are interesting. Certainly the coin has potential...... relatively clean, nice strike, but the luster is not at all typical of a 21. This looks more like a highly lustrous 23 or 24 Philly coin..... and it shouldn't. My personal opinion is that the dies just didn't last long enough during the 3 days these were struck to develop good flow lines and luster. Premature die failure is well-documented. The photography technique might make it look pretty, but it isn't very good for evaluating this side of the coin. The reverse, of course, is a mystery.
My biggest problem is that a coin shop isn't just going to sell a high 4-figure coin raw. It has either been graded lower than they wanted and cracked out, graded as a problem coin and cracked out, or they don't think it merits grading. The apparent result of this auction notwithstanding, no coin dealer would willingly forfeit thousands of dollars by selling this coin raw if it legitimately deserved to be in a 66 or 66+ slab.
BTW, every raw Peace dollar and Morgan on their site (many hundreds of them along with other silver coins) are advertised as having come "fresh from original rolls." They also sell PCGS and NGC slabbed coins, some with CAC stickers. This is from their auction house store.
I don't see any 1921 dates in the picture..........including the one that's face up. All the coins have the reverse side showing. The purported 1921 in the pic has the last number of the date obscured by the roll.
Does all of this seem just a little strange and coincidental to you?
Pete
All that ancient acidic roll paper and no edge toning?
Got to love the old checks underneath to lend "authenticity".
Yeah…I bought a few coins from that dealer. They were freshly dipped, one was actually lightly circulated one was clearly tooled in one spot and the other one was scratched (couldn’t see it in the pics.). I’m pretty sure they’re just cracking low grade ms coins and higher end AU coins, dipping them, and reselling them raw. With lighting on the pics that blow out the surfaces but with high contrast…makes them look super flashy! Sometimes it pays off for the buyer, but usually it doesn’t.
I would never recommend buying from them. They’re not accurately representing the coins they sell. They may not be overtly lying, but they’re withholding all the truth. There’s history to these coins. They don’t come from rolls, that’s for sure. They have a couple old rolls that they preserve and put coins in it for the pictures.
@SimonW said:
Yeah…I bought a few coins from that dealer. They were freshly dipped, one was actually lightly circulated one was clearly tooled in one spot and the other one was scratched (couldn’t see it in the pics.). I’m pretty sure they’re just cracking low grade ms coins and higher end AU coins, dipping them, and reselling them raw. With lighting on the pics that blow out the surfaces but with high contrast…makes them look super flashy! Sometimes it pays off for the buyer, but usually it doesn’t.
I would never recommend buying from them. They’re not accurately representing the coins they sell. They may not be overtly lying, but they’re withholding all the truth. There’s history to these coins. They don’t come from rolls, that’s for sure. They have a couple old rolls that they preserve and put coins in it for the pictures.
Withholding the truth is one thing and outright lying is another. For an example of the latter, see the post above this one.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yeah, they’re clearly lying about that. At this point they would have opened literally thousands of rolls. Simple logic dictates that they’re full of bull.
Canyon City coins is well known for juicing their photos as well as selling problem coins and unrealistic rolls. I had a friend buy a coin from them (raw) and when he received it, it looked nothing like the overexposed "luster bomb" photos. In my experience, this is a seller to avoid regardless of their 24K feedback.
In tracking the bid lines for this auction, they scream shill bid.
All this dubious activity leads me to believe they crack problem coins and re-sell them raw. Sellers like this put a cloud over the hobby and at the prices their auctions realize, may even deter collectors from continuing after having a bad and costly experience.
Canyon City coins is bad for the integrity of numismatics, period.
@split37 In tracking the bid lines for this auction, they scream shill bid.
All this dubious activity leads me to believe they crack problem coins and re-sell them raw. Sellers like this put a cloud over the hobby and at the prices their auctions realize, may even deter collectors from continuing after having a bad and costly experience.
You've got thar right. I'm hanging in there barely. I have had to return a half dozen coins and one roll of walking liberty halves. I absolutely did not get what I expected. The positive thing for me was that they were all problem free returns including paid return postage. This can be the saving grace when buying from eBay.
I continue to try to locate dealers online who are fair, accurate and honest.
I know they exist and that there are lots of them. I just don't know who they are yet.
It would be good if we could share at the very least good ebay sellers.
@crazyhounddog said:
This seller has an UNLIMITED supply of (Never Opened) coin rolls. Of course this is pure BS. What we have here, in my opinion, is a seller that cracks open problem coins and claims they are from a never opened roll. I bought a raw buffalo nickel from this outfit and it came to me with cleaning hairlines along with it being laminated. I left him negative feedback that was removed by Ebay.
This seller is a Crook with a capital C. Stay clear
Why was the feedback removed?
I guess giving free returns gives scumbag ebay sellers a free pass to misrepresent coins when selling them, hoping for suckers that don't know better. What a business model.
Comments
They did some really crazy stuff in photoshop to this coin.
I tried to reverse it myself but I couldn't even get close to bringing that image back to what a normal image should look like. I suspect the coin has been cleaned, but I have no way of backing up my claim from the image.
Coin Photographer.
The last two bids are indeed interesting.
It's possible two different fat cats with virtually zero feedback happened to enter bids at the last second. It's also likely the progress of the auction surprised someone who then used a couple of "burner" accounts to nuke it and effectively cancel the auction.
I'm guessing the auction result the OP posted didn't result in an actual transfer of ownership of this coin. It could all be 100% legit too - just seems weird.
It's too bad Watch Count is not capable of finding very suspicious correlations with bidders on items any more, but the lack of prior bidding in that auction is clearly indicative of some type of shill activity. In many years I have never seen smart or real money chasing items with that level of speculation. As one dealer told me speculators always lose anyway. Maybe people are willing to risk an extra $20, $50 or so but not hundreds or thousands.
I can't knock it. If someone has that kind of bread to throw around got bless the seller, he's the one who has much to celebrate.
My first thought was, how many nice looking 1921 peace dollars could I buy raw that might end up with the same result if I were patient?
I'm happy for both parties.
I also have another theory, I am sure I'm not the first to think of this but even if I am I'm going to throw it out their.
I can be very cynical at times but I usually ignore myself.
This time I will share my thoughts.
Have you ever considered that people make it look like some things not just coins are going up in value just to set the stage hoping for a following so they can cash in?
What are your thoughts on this?
If someone told you that “speculators always lose money”, he exaggerated greatly and is proved wrong on a daily basis.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Of course auction shenanigans happen. With virtually all auction formats. Since the first caveman auctioned off the first stone tool.
Did it happen this time? Maybe. Maybe not. Hard to prove. Dangerous to try.
I don't think it was.
Young Numismatist
Congratulations to the winner and seller. Enjoy the coin.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
There have been busy bodies in this forum who have burner accounts they use to pester sellers who they feel are misrepresenting
I see a date of 1923 on one of the coins in the roll.
As was shared in the bid details - It looks like the $3k range was legitimate then after that 2 new bidders inflated to the final result.
Flashy finish but meaningless to me as I strongly doubt it's legit.
You're right. I missed it, and the date is in plain sight.
Pete
A review of the bidding indicates that the winning bidder (lr) placed his winning bid 5 days 22 hours 54 minutes PRIOR to the bid closing. The underbidder (1c) placed numerous bids 3 days 13 hours 42 minutes prior to the bid closing with a final bid of $9,500 pushing the winning bid to $9,600. There was no bidding in the last three days prior to the bid closing.
Why would someone place a nuclear bid five days prior to the bid closing? Perhaps the underbidder was a shill just jacking up the price until the price became stupid and they were OK with the result. And this all happened over three days prior to the bid closed. Not exactly a last minute bid of desperation. I suspect the listor placed the nuclear bid to a very high level because the coin was not really for sale anymore.
My shill sensors are tingling.
Collector, occasional seller
That's the stock photo they use for every peace dollar that is "from original roll"...
Collector, occasional seller
This seller has an UNLIMITED supply of (Never Opened) coin rolls. Of course this is pure BS. What we have here, in my opinion, is a seller that cracks open problem coins and claims they are from a never opened roll. I bought a raw buffalo nickel from this outfit and it came to me with cleaning hairlines along with it being laminated. I left him negative feedback that was removed by Ebay.
This seller is a Crook with a capital C. Stay clear
Just going to leave this here without further comment HA auction was first
https://www.ebay.com/itm/155255503475?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=6v3Ca9IWSdS&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=T8LsB4nITpO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=EMAIL
https://coins.ha.com/itm/walking-liberty-half-dollars/1928-s-50c-obverse-re-engraved-anacs-ms60-details-mintage-1-940-000/a/132244-21405.s
Good catch! Those are certainly the same coin.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
The coin in the first post appears polished.
The coin in the OP has significant damage on the neck and cheek, and some apparent scattered hits in the obverse fields that are masked by the dark spots.
I would guess they boost the contrast and that’s making it seem like it has intense luster.
The fact this seller has so many positive feedbacks indicates the number of amateur ignorant coin collectors that buy on eBay. I know some of you guys say you got a decent coin, nothing is 100% but this comes close.
Extremely obvious that he uses shill accounts and is a very dishonest seller.
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
That is the same coin. No doubt about it. The spot below the foot and scattered bag marks are a dead giveaway
All that ancient acidic roll paper and no edge toning?
Got to love the old checks underneath to lend "authenticity".
Yeah…I bought a few coins from that dealer. They were freshly dipped, one was actually lightly circulated one was clearly tooled in one spot and the other one was scratched (couldn’t see it in the pics.). I’m pretty sure they’re just cracking low grade ms coins and higher end AU coins, dipping them, and reselling them raw. With lighting on the pics that blow out the surfaces but with high contrast…makes them look super flashy! Sometimes it pays off for the buyer, but usually it doesn’t.
I would never recommend buying from them. They’re not accurately representing the coins they sell. They may not be overtly lying, but they’re withholding all the truth. There’s history to these coins. They don’t come from rolls, that’s for sure. They have a couple old rolls that they preserve and put coins in it for the pictures.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
I also wonder how many shills they have.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Yes, it’s the same coin. And that makes the seller’s claim “ * FRESH FROM ORIGINAL ROLL” a lie.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Withholding the truth is one thing and outright lying is another. For an example of the latter, see the post above this one.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld
Yeah, they’re clearly lying about that. At this point they would have opened literally thousands of rolls. Simple logic dictates that they’re full of bull.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Canyon City coins is well known for juicing their photos as well as selling problem coins and unrealistic rolls. I had a friend buy a coin from them (raw) and when he received it, it looked nothing like the overexposed "luster bomb" photos. In my experience, this is a seller to avoid regardless of their 24K feedback.
In tracking the bid lines for this auction, they scream shill bid.
All this dubious activity leads me to believe they crack problem coins and re-sell them raw. Sellers like this put a cloud over the hobby and at the prices their auctions realize, may even deter collectors from continuing after having a bad and costly experience.
Canyon City coins is bad for the integrity of numismatics, period.
Ah, now that there's proof, it's a lot easier to say what should have been said all along.
False advertising, deceptive photography, evidence of shill bids......
I wish this stuff was rare in the coin world.
@split37 In tracking the bid lines for this auction, they scream shill bid.
All this dubious activity leads me to believe they crack problem coins and re-sell them raw. Sellers like this put a cloud over the hobby and at the prices their auctions realize, may even deter collectors from continuing after having a bad and costly experience.
You've got thar right. I'm hanging in there barely. I have had to return a half dozen coins and one roll of walking liberty halves. I absolutely did not get what I expected. The positive thing for me was that they were all problem free returns including paid return postage. This can be the saving grace when buying from eBay.
I continue to try to locate dealers online who are fair, accurate and honest.
I know they exist and that there are lots of them. I just don't know who they are yet.
It would be good if we could share at the very least good ebay sellers.
Why was the feedback removed?
I guess giving free returns gives scumbag ebay sellers a free pass to misrepresent coins when selling them, hoping for suckers that don't know better. What a business model.