Am I Crazy? 1964-D 50c FS 101?

CohensCoins

Recently submitted this 1964 D 50c FS 101 (?); PCGS did not attribute it as such. I am usually pretty sharp on these things and they've refused to correct it; citing "multiple graders" looking at it. If I am wrong I would love to know because I bought a roll of mixed DDO/TDOs off a dealer and had marked about 12 of them as DDOs and was planning on getting most of them certified to ease selling them but now I feel like I'm going crazy. Would love to know either way.

Thanks!

Coin in question: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/46051842

Link to PCGS FS 101: https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1964-d-50c-ddo/86707

FlyingAl

Edit

FlyingAl

I assume you submitted it under the variety tier from your OP and that you also contacted them and they said it wasn't the variety? Or am I reading too much into your post?

CohensCoins

@FlyingAl said:
I assume you submitted it under the variety tier from your OP and that you also contacted them and they said it wasn't the variety? Or am I reading too much into your post?

I did not submit it under the variety tier; major varieties are supposed to be attributed at no extra cost (for 64d this would be FS101, D/D (FS501-04(?)), FS105. I did list it on the submission as DDO FS101 (I didnt expect them to check without me noting it). Solo grading it again with variety attribution would be +~$70-80; just not worth it, even in a group still another $40+; and its not supposed to be extra

FlyingAl

@CohensCoins said:

@FlyingAl said:
I assume you submitted it under the variety tier from your OP and that you also contacted them and they said it wasn't the variety? Or am I reading too much into your post?

I did not submit it under the variety tier; major varieties are supposed to be attributed at no extra cost (for 64d this would be FS101, D/D (FS501-04(?)), FS105. I did list it on the submission as DDO FS101 (I didnt expect them to check without me noting it). Solo grading it again with variety attribution would be +~$70-80; just not worth it, even in a group still another $40+; and its not supposed to be extra

FS varieties are speciality varieties and need to be paid for. A major variety is something like an Accented Hair Half dollar. In this case, PCGS won't attribute this variety since you didn't pay for them to do so.

CohensCoins

@FlyingAl said:

FS varieties are speciality varieties and need to be paid for. A major variety is something like an Accented Hair Half dollar. In this case, PCGS won't attribute this variety since you didn't pay for them to do so.

Perhaps to get "FS101" on the holder; but any variety that is a "major variety" does not cost money to attribute; as mentioned above the DDO, QDO, and D/D are "major varieties" for the 64 d 50c and should not incur additional cost to attribute. You can tell whether something is a major variety by whether it has its own link on the main coinfacts page for that type of the coin see: https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/category/half-dollars/kennedy-half-dollar/type-1-silver/735

They had no issue with the 1812/1 Large 8 50c, 1954 s/d 5c, 1955 d/s 5 c all also major varieties. Also in the email with the staff they stated it was one of FS102-4 which is why is was not attributed; not that it WAS fs 101 but that I did not pay the fee.

FlyingAl

@CohensCoins said:

@FlyingAl said:

FS varieties are speciality varieties and need to be paid for. A major variety is something like an Accented Hair Half dollar. In this case, PCGS won't attribute this variety since you didn't pay for them to do so.

Perhaps to get "FS101" on the holder; but any variety that is a "major variety" does not cost money to attribute; as mentioned above the DDO, QDO, and D/D are "major varieties" for the 64 d 50c and should not incur additional cost to attribute. You can tell whether something is a major variety by whether it has its own link on the main coinfacts page for that type of the coin see: https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/category/half-dollars/kennedy-half-dollar/type-1-silver/735

They had no issue with the 1812/1 Large 8 50c, 1954 s/d 5c, 1955 d/s 5 c all also major varieties. Also in the email with the staff they stated it was one of FS102-4 which is why is was not attributed; not that it WAS fs 101 but that I did not pay the fee.

These coins don't have a reference number: 1812/1 Large 8 50c, 1954 s/d 5c, 1955 d/s 5 c

This coin does: FS-101. They won't attribute it as FS-101 unless you pay, regardless of what CoinFacts says. I have no idea about the Doubled Die Obverse designation.

CohensCoins

They definitely do have reference numbers...O-102/102a; FS501, FS501... Dont care whether they put the reference on the holder; just want the variety, which they do for majors, which they didn't do in this case; unless its not a FS101 DDO

lilolme

@CohensCoins said:

@FlyingAl said:
I assume you submitted it under the variety tier from your OP and that you also contacted them and they said it wasn't the variety? Or am I reading too much into your post?

I did not submit it under the variety tier; major varieties are supposed to be attributed at no extra cost (for 64d this would be FS101, D/D (FS501-04(?)), FS105. I did list it on the submission as DDO FS101 (I didnt expect them to check without me noting it). Solo grading it again with variety attribution would be +~$70-80; just not worth it, even in a group still another $40+; and its not supposed to be extra

.
Looking at the pcgs price guide and the coinfacts page it is not clear (to me) what pcgs is doing. It appears you are correct based off of the price guide as the FS101 is not a sub-cat. Not sure why the FS101 does not show up at all for the 1964 D 'show other varieties' but the DDO does as a major variety. However, the FS101 coinfacts page indicates the FS101 under die varieties. So the confusion (to me).

I know nothing about difference in the DDO and FS101 or any of these. Here are the pages if they help.

.

.

.

.

davewesen

a few years ago 'major variety' was something listed as a separate line in the redbook, I am not sure if they have changed this.

The top of the first T in TRUST makes me feel you might have DDO-018

varietyvista.com/12%20Kennedy%20Halves/DDO%20Detail%20Pages/1964DDDO018.htm

telephoto1

It almost looks like they are making a separate distinction between DDO and DDO FS-101, with the latter not being considered "major".

lilolme

@telephoto1 said:
It almost looks like they are making a separate distinction between DDO and DDO FS-101, with the latter not being considered "major".

That is it. The FS101 is a sub-cat of the DDO. Pages below.
Again I don't know these at all.

CohensCoins

@lilolme said:

@CohensCoins said:

@FlyingAl said:
I assume you submitted it under the variety tier from your OP and that you also contacted them and they said it wasn't the variety? Or am I reading too much into your post?

I did not submit it under the variety tier; major varieties are supposed to be attributed at no extra cost (for 64d this would be FS101, D/D (FS501-04(?)), FS105. I did list it on the submission as DDO FS101 (I didnt expect them to check without me noting it). Solo grading it again with variety attribution would be +~$70-80; just not worth it, even in a group still another $40+; and its not supposed to be extra

.
Looking at the pcgs price guide and the coinfacts page it is not clear (to me) what pcgs is doing. It appears you are correct based off of the price guide as the FS101 is not a sub-cat. Not sure why the FS101 does not show up at all for the 1964 D 'show other varieties' but the DDO does as a major variety. However, the FS101 coinfacts page indicates the FS101 under die varieties. So the confusion (to me).

I know nothing about difference in the DDO and FS101 or any of these. Here are the pages if they help.

.

.

.

.

Basically, some major varieties (like the 64 d/d) have multiple sub-varieties; if you want the specific one attributed you have to pay $18; if you just want d/d on the holder then you dont have to pay, as it is a "major" variety. Sometimes there is only 1 variety if you pay $18 pcgs will put the reference number; if you dont pay the $18; I have seen them just put DDO (or whatever the variety is) but on occasion still put the reference - I think it just depends on their mood/process for that coin. I don't care whether they put FS101; I do care that they put "DDO." (which they did not)

There is no difference between PCGS Major Variety DDO 64d and FS101- they are the same thing. But all of this wasn't really the point of the post. PCGS says its not the DDO (FS101); I was hoping to get a 2nd-5th opinion.

lilolme

@CohensCoins said:

@lilolme said:

@CohensCoins said:

@FlyingAl said:
I assume you submitted it under the variety tier from your OP and that you also contacted them and they said it wasn't the variety? Or am I reading too much into your post?

I did not submit it under the variety tier; major varieties are supposed to be attributed at no extra cost (for 64d this would be FS101, D/D (FS501-04(?)), FS105. I did list it on the submission as DDO FS101 (I didnt expect them to check without me noting it). Solo grading it again with variety attribution would be +~$70-80; just not worth it, even in a group still another $40+; and its not supposed to be extra

.
Looking at the pcgs price guide and the coinfacts page it is not clear (to me) what pcgs is doing. It appears you are correct based off of the price guide as the FS101 is not a sub-cat. Not sure why the FS101 does not show up at all for the 1964 D 'show other varieties' but the DDO does as a major variety. However, the FS101 coinfacts page indicates the FS101 under die varieties. So the confusion (to me).

I know nothing about difference in the DDO and FS101 or any of these. Here are the pages if they help.

.

.

.

.

Basically, some major varieties (like the 64 d/d) have multiple sub-varieties; if you want the specific one attributed you have to pay $18; if you just want d/d on the holder then you dont have to pay, as it is a "major" variety. Sometimes there is only 1 variety if you pay $18 pcgs will put the reference number; if you dont pay the $18; I have seen them just put DDO (or whatever the variety is) but on occasion still put the reference - I think it just depends on their mood/process for that coin. I don't care whether they put FS101; I do care that they put "DDO." (which they did not)

There is no difference between PCGS Major Variety DDO 64d and FS101- they are the same thing. But all of this wasn't really the point of the post. PCGS says its not the DDO (FS101); I was hoping to get a 2nd-5th opinion.

So looking at the variety vista for the FS101 it has several 'points'. Does the OP coin meet these? Or is there other DDO that it could be? Is there enough of the coin pictured to determine?

Variety Vista page and top description.

http://varietyvista.com/12 Kennedy Halves/DDO Detail Pages/1964DDDO001.htm

Description: Strong spread on IN GOD WE TRUST, date, LI and TY of LIBERTY, designer's initials, and hair on the back of the head.
Reported by: Unknown

Comments: Reverse is RDV-002 (Flared G). FS-101 (13.4).

CohensCoins

@lilolme said:

So looking at the variety vista for the FS101 it has several 'points'. Does the OP coin meet these? Or is there other DDO that it could be? Is there enough of the coin pictured to determine?

Variety Vista page and top description.

http://varietyvista.com/12 Kennedy Halves/DDO Detail Pages/1964DDDO001.htm

Description: Strong spread on IN GOD WE TRUST, date, LI and TY of LIBERTY, designer's initials, and hair on the back of the head.
Reported by: Unknown

Comments: Reverse is RDV-002 (Flared G). FS-101 (13.4).

I linked the trueview above but I can include it inline as well. I see all the die scratches mentioned on Variety Vista under the LDS example (scratch through his hair, rev scratches etc)

"

joeykoins

Yes, like mentioned above. You must check the box, "Variety Attribution".
And pay the $18 additional fee.
I am told if the Variety is in Red Book, it is FREE! However, I still think you have to document the Variety when submitting.
As far as why you are not receiving the certification, .
Good Luck
I know PCGS has issues with the 1966 "Doubled Profile" Kennedys too.

psuman08

Fivaz-Stanton Varieties from the Cherrypickers Guide, Fourth Edition Vol. II and Fifth Edition Vol. I must be paid for as "Variety Attribution".

CohensCoins

@joeykoins said:
Yes, like mentioned above. You must check the box, "Variety Attribution".
And pay the $18 additional fee.
I am told if the Variety is in Red Book, it is FREE! However, I still think you have to document the Variety when submitting.
As far as why you are not receiving the certification, .
Good Luck
I know PCGS has issues with the 1966 "Doubled Profile" Kennedys too.

I have spoken with PCGS several times, I submit hundreds of coins a year. If PCGS lists it as a major variety; you do not need to pay. 1964 D, per their own website has three major varieties, DDO, QDO, D/D. I listed it as DDO on the form.

When I reached out to customer service, they didn't say, "it wasnt attributed because you did pay" they said "it wasnt attributed because it wasnt FS101." Really confused why there is so much pushback on this.

LanceNewmanOCC

based on the pop reports, there are 2 vareities that 64-d has that require no fee to have ddo or qdo on the label, as the op has stated. (thanks to @lilolme for posting screenshots)

the ONLY question i can see here and it is almost always the same question in these situations, does the OP coin match one/any of the marriages under these 2 free designations.

sounds like the op knows what they are talking about and i did see some commentary above about matching diagnostics of CF coins with the OP coin.

i'll have to do my own homework before i comment further.

edited to add:

nice presentation in the OP.

i'm kinda shocked a simple kennedy ddo with such a spread is even being debated for attribution at this point. ya gotta figure there are probably a few that can fly under this generic "ddo" banner.

OAKSTAR

I really like this one!

jmlanzaf

@CohensCoins said:

@joeykoins said:
Yes, like mentioned above. You must check the box, "Variety Attribution".
And pay the $18 additional fee.
I am told if the Variety is in Red Book, it is FREE! However, I still think you have to document the Variety when submitting.
As far as why you are not receiving the certification, .
Good Luck
I know PCGS has issues with the 1966 "Doubled Profile" Kennedys too.

I have spoken with PCGS several times, I submit hundreds of coins a year. If PCGS lists it as a major variety; you do not need to pay. 1964 D, per their own website has three major varieties, DDO, QDO, D/D. I listed it as DDO on the form.

When I reached out to customer service, they didn't say, "it wasnt attributed because you did pay" they said "it wasnt attributed because it wasnt FS101." Really confused why there is so much pushback on this.

You asked why you didn't get the designation. People are looking for an explanation. Why not just argue with PCGS. No one here knows what happened or why.

FlyingAl

@CohensCoins said:

@joeykoins said:
Yes, like mentioned above. You must check the box, "Variety Attribution".
And pay the $18 additional fee.
I am told if the Variety is in Red Book, it is FREE! However, I still think you have to document the Variety when submitting.
As far as why you are not receiving the certification, .
Good Luck
I know PCGS has issues with the 1966 "Doubled Profile" Kennedys too.

I have spoken with PCGS several times, I submit hundreds of coins a year. If PCGS lists it as a major variety; you do not need to pay. 1964 D, per their own website has three major varieties, DDO, QDO, D/D. I listed it as DDO on the form.

When I reached out to customer service, they didn't say, "it wasnt attributed because you did pay" they said "it wasnt attributed because it wasnt FS101." Really confused why there is so much pushback on this.

Ok, I was confused on what they said. If they said it would have been attributed if it was the FS-101, then I absolutely agree with you.

There is no doubt that's the FS-101. I sure hope they're not missing stuff like this.

Connecticoin

Did you enter the appropriate coin number on the form? Maybe they are looking for that for major varieties

CohensCoins

@Connecticoin said:
Did you enter the appropriate coin number on the form? Maybe they are looking for that for major varieties

I actually went back and checked cause I started questioning my self; I did. I honestly wish I had not listed it cause then there would be some reason for the mix-up that I could fix, because, as I mentioned, I have 7 or so more I want to submit and now I don't know what to do with them.

leothelyon

@CohensCoins said:
Recently submitted this 1964 D 50c FS 101 (?); PCGS did not attribute it as such. I am usually pretty sharp on these things and they've refused to correct it; citing "multiple graders" looking at it.

Should that say, "citing "multiple graders" have looked at it." ? If that's the case, it's likely, they're after more moola!

Leo

yspsales

@CohensCoins said:

@Connecticoin said:
Did you enter the appropriate coin number on the form? Maybe they are looking for that for major varieties

I actually went back and checked cause I started questioning my self; I did. I honestly wish I had not listed it cause then there would be some reason for the mix-up that I could fix, because, as I mentioned, I have 7 or so more I want to submit and now I don't know what to do with them.

Pay the $18…

They view a coin for just a few seconds. I like to help them as much as possible.

Now you have to send coin back.

I understand your POV… but did you save anything? All the aggravation and phone calls?

LanceNewmanOCC

@CohensCoins said:

@Connecticoin said:
Did you enter the appropriate coin number on the form? Maybe they are looking for that for major varieties

I actually went back and checked cause I started questioning my self; I did. I honestly wish I had not listed it cause then there would be some reason for the mix-up that I could fix, because, as I mentioned, I have 7 or so more I want to submit and now I don't know what to do with them.

about the only advice i have w/o getting caught up in a bunch of communications with pcgs, get some of the CF images, showing lots of close-up diagnostics of attributed varieties (the non-$18 ones) and print those images out and include them with some printouts of the ones you have showing matching diagnostics (primary and secondary) and ensure you have the free attribution coin number listed and point out it is a free attribution situations based on marriages they've chosen to include under that banner.

i'd include some other coins JUST so if the order came back nerfed, i wouldn't feel as though it had been a completely failed attempt.

how ANY strong DDO for the date isn't included under that coin number is beyond me. it is literally the very essence of a generic DDO designation all things considered.

Coinscratch

This one is a different variety all together but I found it interesting that they put on the label “Minor Variety”.

jmlanzaf

@Coinscratch said:
This one is a different variety all together but I found it interesting that they put on the label “Minor Variety”.

Did it get that attribution for free or was it paid for?

Coinscratch

@jmlanzaf said:

@Coinscratch said:
This one is a different variety all together but I found it interesting that they put on the label “Minor Variety”.

Did it get that attribution for free or was it paid for?

I paid for it. But was expecting some kind of an FS-10xx number to be associated with it.
I guess I’m surprised they even recognize it if it’s just thrown into a category with nothing specific other than minor variety.
Btw I’m not complaining.

LanceNewmanOCC

@Coinscratch said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Coinscratch said:
This one is a different variety all together but I found it interesting that they put on the label “Minor Variety”.

Did it get that attribution for free or was it paid for?

I paid for it. But was expecting some kind of an FS-10xx number to be associated with it.
I guess I’m surprised they even recognize it if it’s just thrown into a category with nothing specific other than minor variety.
Btw I’m not complaining.

that is a weird one. i WAS under the impression that having ANY designation along with the minor variety thing was simply a contradiction. (there MAY be some FS designations out there w/o a pcgs coin number where it would get a minor variety w/o paid attribution but probably not many)

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/45223716 (i was just checking to see if the cert page listed minor variety since the above has a coin number that starts with V.

even though you paid, that DDO designation is NOT an official attribution and the coin is most likely NOT in the pop reports. that thing is a mongoloid, plain and simple. a neat novelty to keep on-hand unless the coin inside has substantial value assigned to it.

jesbroken

Not at all an expert on this series, but I can compare CoinFacts' photos of an FS-101 and yours. I cannot imagine PCGS denying your coin if they compare their own photos. JMO
Jim