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Am I Crazy? 1964-D 50c FS 101?

Recently submitted this 1964 D 50c FS 101 (?); PCGS did not attribute it as such. I am usually pretty sharp on these things and they've refused to correct it; citing "multiple graders" looking at it. If I am wrong I would love to know because I bought a roll of mixed DDO/TDOs off a dealer and had marked about 12 of them as DDOs and was planning on getting most of them certified to ease selling them but now I feel like I'm going crazy. Would love to know either way.

Thanks!

Coin in question: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/46051842

Link to PCGS FS 101: https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1964-d-50c-ddo/86707

Comments

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    FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 22, 2022 8:48AM

    Edit

    Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.

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    FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 22, 2022 8:37AM

    I assume you submitted it under the variety tier from your OP and that you also contacted them and they said it wasn't the variety? Or am I reading too much into your post?

    Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.

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    @FlyingAl said:
    I assume you submitted it under the variety tier from your OP and that you also contacted them and they said it wasn't the variety? Or am I reading too much into your post?

    I did not submit it under the variety tier; major varieties are supposed to be attributed at no extra cost (for 64d this would be FS101, D/D (FS501-04(?)), FS105. I did list it on the submission as DDO FS101 (I didnt expect them to check without me noting it). Solo grading it again with variety attribution would be +~$70-80; just not worth it, even in a group still another $40+; and its not supposed to be extra

  • Options
    FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CohensCoins said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    I assume you submitted it under the variety tier from your OP and that you also contacted them and they said it wasn't the variety? Or am I reading too much into your post?

    I did not submit it under the variety tier; major varieties are supposed to be attributed at no extra cost (for 64d this would be FS101, D/D (FS501-04(?)), FS105. I did list it on the submission as DDO FS101 (I didnt expect them to check without me noting it). Solo grading it again with variety attribution would be +~$70-80; just not worth it, even in a group still another $40+; and its not supposed to be extra

    FS varieties are speciality varieties and need to be paid for. A major variety is something like an Accented Hair Half dollar. In this case, PCGS won't attribute this variety since you didn't pay for them to do so.

    Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.

  • Options

    @FlyingAl said:

    FS varieties are speciality varieties and need to be paid for. A major variety is something like an Accented Hair Half dollar. In this case, PCGS won't attribute this variety since you didn't pay for them to do so.

    Perhaps to get "FS101" on the holder; but any variety that is a "major variety" does not cost money to attribute; as mentioned above the DDO, QDO, and D/D are "major varieties" for the 64 d 50c and should not incur additional cost to attribute. You can tell whether something is a major variety by whether it has its own link on the main coinfacts page for that type of the coin see: https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/category/half-dollars/kennedy-half-dollar/type-1-silver/735

    They had no issue with the 1812/1 Large 8 50c, 1954 s/d 5c, 1955 d/s 5 c all also major varieties. Also in the email with the staff they stated it was one of FS102-4 which is why is was not attributed; not that it WAS fs 101 but that I did not pay the fee.

  • Options
    FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CohensCoins said:

    @FlyingAl said:

    FS varieties are speciality varieties and need to be paid for. A major variety is something like an Accented Hair Half dollar. In this case, PCGS won't attribute this variety since you didn't pay for them to do so.

    Perhaps to get "FS101" on the holder; but any variety that is a "major variety" does not cost money to attribute; as mentioned above the DDO, QDO, and D/D are "major varieties" for the 64 d 50c and should not incur additional cost to attribute. You can tell whether something is a major variety by whether it has its own link on the main coinfacts page for that type of the coin see: https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/category/half-dollars/kennedy-half-dollar/type-1-silver/735

    They had no issue with the 1812/1 Large 8 50c, 1954 s/d 5c, 1955 d/s 5 c all also major varieties. Also in the email with the staff they stated it was one of FS102-4 which is why is was not attributed; not that it WAS fs 101 but that I did not pay the fee.

    These coins don't have a reference number: 1812/1 Large 8 50c, 1954 s/d 5c, 1955 d/s 5 c

    This coin does: FS-101. They won't attribute it as FS-101 unless you pay, regardless of what CoinFacts says. I have no idea about the Doubled Die Obverse designation.

    Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.

  • Options

    They definitely do have reference numbers...O-102/102a; FS501, FS501... Dont care whether they put the reference on the holder; just want the variety, which they do for majors, which they didn't do in this case; unless its not a FS101 DDO

  • Options
    lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CohensCoins said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    I assume you submitted it under the variety tier from your OP and that you also contacted them and they said it wasn't the variety? Or am I reading too much into your post?

    I did not submit it under the variety tier; major varieties are supposed to be attributed at no extra cost (for 64d this would be FS101, D/D (FS501-04(?)), FS105. I did list it on the submission as DDO FS101 (I didnt expect them to check without me noting it). Solo grading it again with variety attribution would be +~$70-80; just not worth it, even in a group still another $40+; and its not supposed to be extra

    .
    Looking at the pcgs price guide and the coinfacts page it is not clear (to me) what pcgs is doing. It appears you are correct based off of the price guide as the FS101 is not a sub-cat. Not sure why the FS101 does not show up at all for the 1964 D 'show other varieties' but the DDO does as a major variety. However, the FS101 coinfacts page indicates the FS101 under die varieties. So the confusion (to me).

    I know nothing about difference in the DDO and FS101 or any of these. Here are the pages if they help.

    .

    .

    .

    .

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • Options
    davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,860 ✭✭✭✭✭

    a few years ago 'major variety' was something listed as a separate line in the redbook, I am not sure if they have changed this.

    The top of the first T in TRUST makes me feel you might have DDO-018

    varietyvista.com/12%20Kennedy%20Halves/DDO%20Detail%20Pages/1964DDDO018.htm

  • Options
    telephoto1telephoto1 Posts: 4,751 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It almost looks like they are making a separate distinction between DDO and DDO FS-101, with the latter not being considered "major".


    RIP Mom- 1932-2012
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    lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @telephoto1 said:
    It almost looks like they are making a separate distinction between DDO and DDO FS-101, with the latter not being considered "major".

    That is it. The FS101 is a sub-cat of the DDO. Pages below.
    Again I don't know these at all.


    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

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    @lilolme said:

    @CohensCoins said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    I assume you submitted it under the variety tier from your OP and that you also contacted them and they said it wasn't the variety? Or am I reading too much into your post?

    I did not submit it under the variety tier; major varieties are supposed to be attributed at no extra cost (for 64d this would be FS101, D/D (FS501-04(?)), FS105. I did list it on the submission as DDO FS101 (I didnt expect them to check without me noting it). Solo grading it again with variety attribution would be +~$70-80; just not worth it, even in a group still another $40+; and its not supposed to be extra

    .
    Looking at the pcgs price guide and the coinfacts page it is not clear (to me) what pcgs is doing. It appears you are correct based off of the price guide as the FS101 is not a sub-cat. Not sure why the FS101 does not show up at all for the 1964 D 'show other varieties' but the DDO does as a major variety. However, the FS101 coinfacts page indicates the FS101 under die varieties. So the confusion (to me).

    I know nothing about difference in the DDO and FS101 or any of these. Here are the pages if they help.

    .

    .

    .

    .

    Basically, some major varieties (like the 64 d/d) have multiple sub-varieties; if you want the specific one attributed you have to pay $18; if you just want d/d on the holder then you dont have to pay, as it is a "major" variety. Sometimes there is only 1 variety if you pay $18 pcgs will put the reference number; if you dont pay the $18; I have seen them just put DDO (or whatever the variety is) but on occasion still put the reference - I think it just depends on their mood/process for that coin. I don't care whether they put FS101; I do care that they put "DDO." (which they did not)

    There is no difference between PCGS Major Variety DDO 64d and FS101- they are the same thing. But all of this wasn't really the point of the post. PCGS says its not the DDO (FS101); I was hoping to get a 2nd-5th opinion.

  • Options
    lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CohensCoins said:

    @lilolme said:

    @CohensCoins said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    I assume you submitted it under the variety tier from your OP and that you also contacted them and they said it wasn't the variety? Or am I reading too much into your post?

    I did not submit it under the variety tier; major varieties are supposed to be attributed at no extra cost (for 64d this would be FS101, D/D (FS501-04(?)), FS105. I did list it on the submission as DDO FS101 (I didnt expect them to check without me noting it). Solo grading it again with variety attribution would be +~$70-80; just not worth it, even in a group still another $40+; and its not supposed to be extra

    .
    Looking at the pcgs price guide and the coinfacts page it is not clear (to me) what pcgs is doing. It appears you are correct based off of the price guide as the FS101 is not a sub-cat. Not sure why the FS101 does not show up at all for the 1964 D 'show other varieties' but the DDO does as a major variety. However, the FS101 coinfacts page indicates the FS101 under die varieties. So the confusion (to me).

    I know nothing about difference in the DDO and FS101 or any of these. Here are the pages if they help.

    .

    .

    .

    .

    Basically, some major varieties (like the 64 d/d) have multiple sub-varieties; if you want the specific one attributed you have to pay $18; if you just want d/d on the holder then you dont have to pay, as it is a "major" variety. Sometimes there is only 1 variety if you pay $18 pcgs will put the reference number; if you dont pay the $18; I have seen them just put DDO (or whatever the variety is) but on occasion still put the reference - I think it just depends on their mood/process for that coin. I don't care whether they put FS101; I do care that they put "DDO." (which they did not)

    There is no difference between PCGS Major Variety DDO 64d and FS101- they are the same thing. But all of this wasn't really the point of the post. PCGS says its not the DDO (FS101); I was hoping to get a 2nd-5th opinion.

    So looking at the variety vista for the FS101 it has several 'points'. Does the OP coin meet these? Or is there other DDO that it could be? Is there enough of the coin pictured to determine?

    Variety Vista page and top description.

    http://varietyvista.com/12 Kennedy Halves/DDO Detail Pages/1964DDDO001.htm

    Description: Strong spread on IN GOD WE TRUST, date, LI and TY of LIBERTY, designer's initials, and hair on the back of the head.
    Reported by: Unknown

    Comments: Reverse is RDV-002 (Flared G). FS-101 (13.4).

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • Options

    @lilolme said:

    So looking at the variety vista for the FS101 it has several 'points'. Does the OP coin meet these? Or is there other DDO that it could be? Is there enough of the coin pictured to determine?

    Variety Vista page and top description.

    http://varietyvista.com/12 Kennedy Halves/DDO Detail Pages/1964DDDO001.htm

    Description: Strong spread on IN GOD WE TRUST, date, LI and TY of LIBERTY, designer's initials, and hair on the back of the head.
    Reported by: Unknown

    Comments: Reverse is RDV-002 (Flared G). FS-101 (13.4).

    I linked the trueview above but I can include it inline as well. I see all the die scratches mentioned on Variety Vista under the LDS example (scratch through his hair, rev scratches etc)

    "

  • Options
    joeykoinsjoeykoins Posts: 14,893 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, like mentioned above. You must check the box, "Variety Attribution".
    And pay the $18 additional fee.
    I am told if the Variety is in Red Book, it is FREE! However, I still think you have to document the Variety when submitting.
    As far as why you are not receiving the certification, :* .
    Good Luck
    I know PCGS has issues with the 1966 "Doubled Profile" Kennedys too.

    "Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!

    --- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.
  • Options
    psuman08psuman08 Posts: 238 ✭✭✭

    Fivaz-Stanton Varieties from the Cherrypickers Guide, Fourth Edition Vol. II and Fifth Edition Vol. I must be paid for as "Variety Attribution".

  • Options
    CohensCoinsCohensCoins Posts: 8
    edited December 22, 2022 2:30PM

    @joeykoins said:
    Yes, like mentioned above. You must check the box, "Variety Attribution".
    And pay the $18 additional fee.
    I am told if the Variety is in Red Book, it is FREE! However, I still think you have to document the Variety when submitting.
    As far as why you are not receiving the certification, :* .
    Good Luck
    I know PCGS has issues with the 1966 "Doubled Profile" Kennedys too.

    I have spoken with PCGS several times, I submit hundreds of coins a year. If PCGS lists it as a major variety; you do not need to pay. 1964 D, per their own website has three major varieties, DDO, QDO, D/D. I listed it as DDO on the form.

    When I reached out to customer service, they didn't say, "it wasnt attributed because you did pay" they said "it wasnt attributed because it wasnt FS101." Really confused why there is so much pushback on this.

  • Options
    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 22, 2022 3:13PM

    based on the pop reports, there are 2 vareities that 64-d has that require no fee to have ddo or qdo on the label, as the op has stated. (thanks to @lilolme for posting screenshots)

    the ONLY question i can see here and it is almost always the same question in these situations, does the OP coin match one/any of the marriages under these 2 free designations.

    sounds like the op knows what they are talking about and i did see some commentary above about matching diagnostics of CF coins with the OP coin.

    i'll have to do my own homework before i comment further.

    edited to add:

    nice presentation in the OP.

    i'm kinda shocked a simple kennedy ddo with such a spread is even being debated for attribution at this point. ya gotta figure there are probably a few that can fly under this generic "ddo" banner.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • Options
    OAKSTAROAKSTAR Posts: 5,836 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I really like this one!

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • Options
    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 32,001 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CohensCoins said:

    @joeykoins said:
    Yes, like mentioned above. You must check the box, "Variety Attribution".
    And pay the $18 additional fee.
    I am told if the Variety is in Red Book, it is FREE! However, I still think you have to document the Variety when submitting.
    As far as why you are not receiving the certification, :* .
    Good Luck
    I know PCGS has issues with the 1966 "Doubled Profile" Kennedys too.

    I have spoken with PCGS several times, I submit hundreds of coins a year. If PCGS lists it as a major variety; you do not need to pay. 1964 D, per their own website has three major varieties, DDO, QDO, D/D. I listed it as DDO on the form.

    When I reached out to customer service, they didn't say, "it wasnt attributed because you did pay" they said "it wasnt attributed because it wasnt FS101." Really confused why there is so much pushback on this.

    You asked why you didn't get the designation. People are looking for an explanation. Why not just argue with PCGS. No one here knows what happened or why.

  • Options
    FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CohensCoins said:

    @joeykoins said:
    Yes, like mentioned above. You must check the box, "Variety Attribution".
    And pay the $18 additional fee.
    I am told if the Variety is in Red Book, it is FREE! However, I still think you have to document the Variety when submitting.
    As far as why you are not receiving the certification, :* .
    Good Luck
    I know PCGS has issues with the 1966 "Doubled Profile" Kennedys too.

    I have spoken with PCGS several times, I submit hundreds of coins a year. If PCGS lists it as a major variety; you do not need to pay. 1964 D, per their own website has three major varieties, DDO, QDO, D/D. I listed it as DDO on the form.

    When I reached out to customer service, they didn't say, "it wasnt attributed because you did pay" they said "it wasnt attributed because it wasnt FS101." Really confused why there is so much pushback on this.

    Ok, I was confused on what they said. If they said it would have been attributed if it was the FS-101, then I absolutely agree with you.

    There is no doubt that's the FS-101. I sure hope they're not missing stuff like this.

    Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.

  • Options
    ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,542 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Did you enter the appropriate coin number on the form? Maybe they are looking for that for major varieties

  • Options

    @Connecticoin said:
    Did you enter the appropriate coin number on the form? Maybe they are looking for that for major varieties

    I actually went back and checked cause I started questioning my self; I did. I honestly wish I had not listed it cause then there would be some reason for the mix-up that I could fix, because, as I mentioned, I have 7 or so more I want to submit and now I don't know what to do with them.

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    leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,365 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CohensCoins said:
    Recently submitted this 1964 D 50c FS 101 (?); PCGS did not attribute it as such. I am usually pretty sharp on these things and they've refused to correct it; citing "multiple graders" looking at it.

    Should that say, "citing "multiple graders" have looked at it." ? If that's the case, it's likely, they're after more moola!

    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • Options
    yspsalesyspsales Posts: 2,231 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2022 1:07PM

    @CohensCoins said:

    @Connecticoin said:
    Did you enter the appropriate coin number on the form? Maybe they are looking for that for major varieties

    I actually went back and checked cause I started questioning my self; I did. I honestly wish I had not listed it cause then there would be some reason for the mix-up that I could fix, because, as I mentioned, I have 7 or so more I want to submit and now I don't know what to do with them.

    Pay the $18…

    They view a coin for just a few seconds. I like to help them as much as possible.

    Now you have to send coin back.

    I understand your POV… but did you save anything? All the aggravation and phone calls?

    BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out

  • Options
    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CohensCoins said:

    @Connecticoin said:
    Did you enter the appropriate coin number on the form? Maybe they are looking for that for major varieties

    I actually went back and checked cause I started questioning my self; I did. I honestly wish I had not listed it cause then there would be some reason for the mix-up that I could fix, because, as I mentioned, I have 7 or so more I want to submit and now I don't know what to do with them.

    about the only advice i have w/o getting caught up in a bunch of communications with pcgs, get some of the CF images, showing lots of close-up diagnostics of attributed varieties (the non-$18 ones) and print those images out and include them with some printouts of the ones you have showing matching diagnostics (primary and secondary) and ensure you have the free attribution coin number listed and point out it is a free attribution situations based on marriages they've chosen to include under that banner.

    i'd include some other coins JUST so if the order came back nerfed, i wouldn't feel as though it had been a completely failed attempt.

    how ANY strong DDO for the date isn't included under that coin number is beyond me. it is literally the very essence of a generic DDO designation all things considered.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • Options
    CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 7,940 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 25, 2022 10:22PM

    This one is a different variety all together but I found it interesting that they put on the label “Minor Variety”.


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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 32,001 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coinscratch said:
    This one is a different variety all together but I found it interesting that they put on the label “Minor Variety”.

    Did it get that attribution for free or was it paid for?

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    CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 7,940 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Coinscratch said:
    This one is a different variety all together but I found it interesting that they put on the label “Minor Variety”.

    Did it get that attribution for free or was it paid for?

    I paid for it. But was expecting some kind of an FS-10xx number to be associated with it.
    I guess I’m surprised they even recognize it if it’s just thrown into a category with nothing specific other than minor variety.
    Btw I’m not complaining.

  • Options
    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coinscratch said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Coinscratch said:
    This one is a different variety all together but I found it interesting that they put on the label “Minor Variety”.

    Did it get that attribution for free or was it paid for?

    I paid for it. But was expecting some kind of an FS-10xx number to be associated with it.
    I guess I’m surprised they even recognize it if it’s just thrown into a category with nothing specific other than minor variety.
    Btw I’m not complaining.

    that is a weird one. i WAS under the impression that having ANY designation along with the minor variety thing was simply a contradiction. (there MAY be some FS designations out there w/o a pcgs coin number where it would get a minor variety w/o paid attribution but probably not many)

    https://www.pcgs.com/cert/45223716 (i was just checking to see if the cert page listed minor variety since the above has a coin number that starts with V.

    even though you paid, that DDO designation is NOT an official attribution and the coin is most likely NOT in the pop reports. that thing is a mongoloid, plain and simple. a neat novelty to keep on-hand unless the coin inside has substantial value assigned to it.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,318 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not at all an expert on this series, but I can compare CoinFacts' photos of an FS-101 and yours. I cannot imagine PCGS denying your coin if they compare their own photos. JMO
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain

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