Curt Schilling HoF Candidacy

daltex · December 16, 2022 5:02AM

A bit late, but wanted Forum feedback.

In the Boston Sunday Globe for 4 December, that is just before the Committee vote was announced, two columnists discussed Schilling's candidacy. They discussed his problematic off field behavior, which IMO, is fair game, though not so bad as to be disqualifying. They also suggested that his on field record is not, to quote one, as much of a slam dunk as his fans insist.

This is the part that is so preposterous that you may wish to put down your beverages.

One columnist noted that three of Schilling's best comps are Kevin Brown, Bob Welch, and Tim Hudson, none of whom are enshrined. The other that Brown had a lower ERA, Jerry Reuss had more wins, and Mickey Lolich had more strikeouts per year, and none of them are enshrined.

So all of this is true, as far as it goes. As far as "Similarity Scores" are concerned, Brown, Welch, and Hudson are 2, 3, 4 to Schilling, with Zack Greinke number 1. Even subtracting Schilling's age 21 and 22 seasons where he struck out 10 of just 114 batters leaves Lolich ahead.

Here are the comparisons of the similar careers:

https://stathead.com/baseball/player-comparison.cgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1=schilcu01&player_id2=brownke01&player_id3=welchbo01&player_id4=hudsoti01&type=p

And here are the comparisons of the superior stat guys:

https://stathead.com/tiny/RzRA5

Comments?

I begin with a one word comment "Preposterous."

ernie11 · December 16, 2022 5:29AM

I don't have the smarts to judge whether a comparison to those other 3 pitchers is preposterous or not. I've always had a higher regard for Kevin Brown's career than the baseball writers did when he came up for HOF consideration. That being said, my short response at this early hour is: Schilling is a HOF'er. He's not a top-tier HOF pitcher but he's a HOF'er.

craig44 · December 16, 2022 5:58AM

without taking a deep dive, I have considered Curt HOF-worthy. I always put him in the same camp as Smoltz. Not top tier, but worlds and universes better than Jack Morris.

craig44 · December 16, 2022 5:59AM

I also think Brown is under appreciated. in the mid to late 90s he was about as good as anyone not named clemens, johnson, maddux or pedro

2dueces · December 16, 2022 6:22AM

He’s another candidate for the Hall of Very Good

craig44 · December 16, 2022 6:35AM

@2dueces said:
He’s another candidate for the Hall of Very Good

I dont know. I think he had 6 great seasons to go with some very good ones. also the post season resume.

Brick · December 16, 2022 6:51AM

I thought his politics were a huge negative for his enshrinement.

tommyrusty7 · December 16, 2022 6:57AM

His politics are what kept him out of the hall and they should not be a qualifying factor in any way, Rediculous !

craig44 · December 16, 2022 7:22AM

I agree, politics should not figure into the equation. I just truly do not care what Curt Schilling or any other athlete has to say about any of that.

LandrysFedora · December 16, 2022 10:13AM

I don't get so much into the stats but just from his consistency and post season prowess I would put him in the hall. Craig44 had a real good comp, in my opinion, with Smoltz. I am also of the opinion that his politics have unjustly kept some writers from voting him.

1948_Swell_Robinson · December 16, 2022 10:32AM

If these writers believe that Jack Morris is a big game pitcher, then Schilling should be a slam dunk based on that same flawed notion that got Morris in.

I agree the politics kept him out. If his political views consisted of jabs from the other side toward his side, then it would not have been a problem.

perkdog · December 16, 2022 10:40AM

Him jobbing the state of Rhode Island to the tune of what 75 million? doesn't help him either

Chicago1976 · December 16, 2022 10:57AM

His request to be removed from the 2022 ballot didn't help either. His votes dropped from 71.1% to 58.6% from 2021 to 2022. I think some of the voters obliged him.

craig44 · December 16, 2022 11:13AM

@perkdog said:
Him jobbing the state of Rhode Island to the tune of what 75 million? doesn't help him either

I totally forgot about that. Holy cow, that was terrible. Still though, I dont think it should count against his playing career.

Goldenage · December 16, 2022 1:18PM

Tabe · December 16, 2022 1:29PM

Schilling was a little up & down during his career. It's not like he had year after year in a row of excellent seasons. He had the run from 2001 to 2004 though. But in terms of truly high-end seasons? They're in short supply. No ERA+ of 160 or higher, for example.

But his postseason numbers were fabulous and make a HOFer.

ernie11 · December 16, 2022 2:37PM

@Chicago1976 said:
His request to be removed from the 2022 ballot didn't help either. His votes dropped from 71.1% to 58.6% from 2021 to 2022. I think some of the voters obliged him.

As the old saying goes, "you gotta watch what you ask for, you might actually get it."

ernie11 · December 16, 2022 2:39PM

@Tabe said:
Schilling was a little up & down during his career. It's not like he had year after year in a row of excellent seasons. He had the run from 2001 to 2004 though. But in terms of truly high-end seasons? They're in short supply. No ERA+ of 160 or higher, for example.

But his postseason numbers were fabulous and make a HOFer.

This is one time I have to dis my own team, but in his early career with the Phillies, he didn't get the run support he should have gotten, or he would've had more wins.

daltex · December 16, 2022 6:08PM

@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
If these writers believe that Jack Morris is a big game pitcher, then Schilling should be a slam dunk based on that same flawed notion that got Morris in.

I agree the politics kept him out. If his political views consisted of jabs from the other side toward his side, then it would not have been a problem.

Just to clarify, Morris wasn't elected by the writers, but by a Committee.

perkdog · December 16, 2022 7:09PM

@craig44 said:

@perkdog said:
Him jobbing the state of Rhode Island to the tune of what 75 million? doesn't help him either

I totally forgot about that. Holy cow, that was terrible. Still though, I dont think it should count against his playing career.

100% agreed, personal life should have nothing to do with HOF credentials

Trust me there are Hundreds of HOF'ers that did bad stuff, some even horrific that went unchecked due to no internet and what not.

Tabe · December 16, 2022 8:50PM

@ernie11 said:

@Tabe said:
Schilling was a little up & down during his career. It's not like he had year after year in a row of excellent seasons. He had the run from 2001 to 2004 though. But in terms of truly high-end seasons? They're in short supply. No ERA+ of 160 or higher, for example.

But his postseason numbers were fabulous and make a HOFer.

This is one time I have to dis my own team, but in his early career with the Phillies, he didn't get the run support he should have gotten, or he would've had more wins.

Eh. He was pretty mediocre two of his first three years in Philly.

JoeBanzai · December 17, 2022 7:56AM

@Tabe said:

@ernie11 said:

@Tabe said:
Schilling was a little up & down during his career. It's not like he had year after year in a row of excellent seasons. He had the run from 2001 to 2004 though. But in terms of truly high-end seasons? They're in short supply. No ERA+ of 160 or higher, for example.

But his postseason numbers were fabulous and make a HOFer.

This is one time I have to dis my own team, but in his early career with the Phillies, he didn't get the run support he should have gotten, or he would've had more wins.

Eh. He was pretty mediocre two of his first three years in Philly.

Wasn't that when he was hurt?

coinkat · December 17, 2022 8:25AM

So did Jack Haley replace Curt Schilling as a candidate on the ballot?

1948_Swell_Robinson · December 17, 2022 8:32AM

@perkdog said:

@craig44 said:

@perkdog said:
Him jobbing the state of Rhode Island to the tune of what 75 million? doesn't help him either

I totally forgot about that. Holy cow, that was terrible. Still though, I dont think it should count against his playing career.

100% agreed, personal life should have nothing to do with HOF credentials

Trust me there are Hundreds of HOF'ers that did bad stuff, some even horrific that went unchecked due to no internet and what not.

Absolutely correct.

Also, we never truly know the merits of a person's character. We only see the tip of the iceberg on EVERYONE and none of us are in a position to pass judgement on the character of someone else and believe it is an accurate appraisal.

Outside of the obvious scumbags of people like Dahmer and that ilk, the character clauses on the Hall of Fame are worthless, especially since they never use 'good' character as a reason to elect someone who is statistically short.

Tabe · December 17, 2022 5:35PM

@JoeBanzai said:

@Tabe said:

@ernie11 said:

@Tabe said:
Schilling was a little up & down during his career. It's not like he had year after year in a row of excellent seasons. He had the run from 2001 to 2004 though. But in terms of truly high-end seasons? They're in short supply. No ERA+ of 160 or higher, for example.

But his postseason numbers were fabulous and make a HOFer.

This is one time I have to dis my own team, but in his early career with the Phillies, he didn't get the run support he should have gotten, or he would've had more wins.

Eh. He was pretty mediocre two of his first three years in Philly.

Wasn't that when he was hurt?

One year yes, one year no.

1951WheatiesPremium · December 19, 2022 2:50AM

The way I see Curt Schilling’s case, even just for his on the field play, is that it is not a slam dunk. This is a case where you need to look at all the stats and not just the advanced stats and career totals. There’s a complete story to be told and not the one told by hindsight where we all know better and call in to question the decisions of MLB baseball teams.

After ten full seasons in the league, Schilling was nothing close to a Hall of Famer. To be clear, he was more like a probably doesn’t even make the ballot type of player. Say what you want but a decade of being an inconsistent pitcher bouncing between the bullpen and the rotation matters and counts. He was certainly a great pitcher over the second half of his career - at times - and a dominant postseason starter - always - but when you look at the twenty year resume, I see about 6 great seasons. Adding up all the career numbers gives you pretty good ratios and totals but there are just too many seasons where when it came to being out there and performing consistently on the field, he comes up a little bit short. And while it’s fine as a fan to ‘give him a pass’ because of 2004 and all he accomplished for the franchise in that season, he was realistically fairly mediocre after that season as a Red Sox pitcher for three more regular seasons.

If the idea is that we’re not going to not count his first nine seasons or his last three seasons against him, then I would probably cast a vote for him. However, having seen the entirety of his career play out I don’t think his postseason brilliance makes up for the reality of his twenty regular seasons.

The argument that “if that guy is in, this guy should be in” is too easy and wasteful of time whether you go with actual election by the writers or appointment by committees; there are obvious guys who lowered the bar along the way already. I prefer to judge the player on their own merits and compared to their peers as to whether I think that player is a clear cut Hall of Famer .

Curt Schilling was a very solid pitcher but ends up on the outside looking in for me.

JoeBanzai · December 19, 2022 10:00AM

@1951WheatiesPremium said:
The way I see Curt Schilling’s case, even just for his on the field play, is that it is not a slam dunk. This is a case where you need to look at all the stats and not just the advanced stats and career totals. There’s a complete story to be told and not the one told by hindsight where we all know better and call in to question the decisions of MLB baseball teams.

After ten full seasons in the league, Schilling was nothing close to a Hall of Famer. To be clear, he was more like a probably doesn’t even make the ballot type of player. Say what you want but a decade of being an inconsistent pitcher bouncing between the bullpen and the rotation matters and counts. He was certainly a great pitcher over the second half of his career - at times - and a dominant postseason starter - always - but when you look at the twenty year resume, I see about 6 great seasons. Adding up all the career numbers gives you pretty good ratios and totals but there are just too many seasons where when it came to being out there and performing consistently on the field, he comes up a little bit short. And while it’s fine as a fan to ‘give him a pass’ because of 2004 and all he accomplished for the franchise in that season, he was realistically fairly mediocre after that season as a Red Sox pitcher for three more regular seasons.

If the idea is that we’re not going to not count his first nine seasons or his last three seasons against him, then I would probably cast a vote for him. However, having seen the entirety of his career play out I don’t think his postseason brilliance makes up for the reality of his twenty regular seasons.

The argument that “if that guy is in, this guy should be in” is too easy and wasteful of time whether you go with actual election by the writers or appointment by committees; there are obvious guys who lowered the bar along the way already. I prefer to judge the player on their own merits and compared to their peers as to whether I think that player is a clear cut Hall of Famer .

Curt Schilling was a very solid pitcher but ends up on the outside looking in for me.

I am not a big Curt Schilling guy, but I would say he had 6 superb seasons; 1992, 1997,1998, 2001, 2002, & 2004 and 5 very good/great ones; 1996,1999, 2000, 2003, & 2006.
You rightfully say his first 10 years weren't great. His first two years he threw a combined 22 innings. The next two a combined 121.
Given the ball in 1992 he immediately became one of the top starters in baseball. He was #1 in WHIP and #4 in ERA. His WAR was 4th and ERA+ was 150. The next year, he regressed, pitched a lot (235) innings and was an average starter.
He had arm troubles in 1994 & 1995.
That's 8 years with 1 great one. No HOF votes here.
The next 9 are pretty impressive. 4 of those years he was probably the second best in his league, twice behind Johnson and twice behind Santana.
Curt was in the top 6 in WHIP each year and top 10 in ERA and WAR 8 of the 9.
His ERA+ averaged 142 for that period and made an average of 31 starts each year.
You mention he had 3 bad years at the end. He was hurt in '05, but pitched well the next year with 204 innings pitched and an ERA+ of 120. His final year wasn't bad either, 151 innings and ERA+ of 123.
Once given the chance to pitch, other than the 3 years he was hurt, he was a great pitcher every season.
His post season performances were as we all know fantastic.
Not Tom Seaver, but I would say a slam dunk.

dallasactuary · December 19, 2022 10:31AM

The list below is the career leaders in Adjusted Pitching Runs. The order is certainly open to debate, but if you're going to create a list of the best 50 pitchers in history, this is where you should start. The list consists almost entirely of HOFers, some active pitchers who will waltz in to the HOF once they're eligible, and a handful of pitchers who have strong cases for the HOF.

Down in the 40s, we've got Tommy Bridges, Johan Santana, and Tony Mullane. They aren't shoo-ins, but they would fit comfortably in the HOF.

In the 30s, we've got Kevin Brown. Brown ought to be in the HOF - he has been screwed.

And at 18, we've got Curt Schilling. To say that he has been screwed is a massive understatement. He has been f***ed. To say that he is a slam dunk HOFer is a massive understatement. He is a Chocolate Thunder, backboard-shattering, slam dunk and it makes a mockery of the HOF that he is not in it.

1948_Swell_Robinson · December 19, 2022 3:46PM

@dallasactuary said:
The list below is the career leaders in Adjusted Pitching Runs. The order is certainly open to debate, but if you're going to create a list of the best 50 pitchers in history, this is where you should start. The list consists almost entirely of HOFers, some active pitchers who will waltz in to the HOF once they're eligible, and a handful of pitchers who have strong cases for the HOF.

Down in the 40s, we've got Tommy Bridges, Johan Santana, and Tony Mullane. They aren't shoo-ins, but they would fit comfortably in the HOF.

In the 30s, we've got Kevin Brown. Brown ought to be in the HOF - he has been screwed.

And at 18, we've got Curt Schilling. To say that he has been screwed is a massive understatement. He has been f***ed. To say that he is a slam dunk HOFer is a massive understatement. He is a Chocolate Thunder, backboard-shattering, slam dunk and it makes a mockery of the HOF that he is not in it.

Correct.

And if going by 'old school' career totals, Schilling is a member of the 3,000 strikeout club which was basically an automatic lock by those terms.

Old school post season heroism makes Schilling a lock as well.

Add what Dallas posted about the more accurate measurement and Schilling wins the trifecta of being a lock Hall of Fame pitcher.

coolstanley · December 20, 2022 2:59AM

Interesting Looking at the Dallas top 50 above, that possibly the most popular pitcher in history(Nolan Ryan) is not on the list.

1951WheatiesPremium · December 20, 2022 3:22AM

@coolstanley said:
Interesting Looking at the Dallas top 50 above, that possibly the most popular pitcher in history(Nolan Ryan) is not on the list.

Yes, the absence of Nolan Ryan and Sandy Koufax jumped out at me, too.

But, hey, the list has spoken and the matter is settled.

😂😂😂

Goldenage · December 20, 2022 5:25AM

@coolstanley said:
Interesting Looking at the Dallas top 50 above, that possibly the most popular pitcher in history(Nolan Ryan) is not on the list.

Ryan is way overrated.

1951WheatiesPremium · December 20, 2022 5:53AM

@Goldenage said:

@coolstanley said:
Interesting Looking at the Dallas top 50 above, that possibly the most popular pitcher in history(Nolan Ryan) is not on the list.

Ryan is way overrated.

Apparently not if he can’t crack the top 50 pitchers all time…

craig44 · December 20, 2022 5:55AM

I wholeheartedly agree with Dallas on Schilling. HOFer for sure. I also agree about Brown, and mentioned him myself above.

keep in mind, the chart Dallas posted is just a tool. one part of a bigger equation.

DeutscherGeist · December 20, 2022 6:36AM

The HOF is not only about good metrics, but also notoriety. I mean, he not only led a cursed team to win their first World Series title in so many decades, he did it twice! He also won with another team too. When the title was not won, it definitely was not due to him performing poorly.

He has broken the top 10 in ERA+ ten times and ranks 55th all time. While he is not a Cy Young, he is a HOFer. Kevin Brown would be one too for similar reasons of very good to excellent metrics and a proven winner.

1948_Swell_Robinson · December 20, 2022 7:22AM

@Goldenage said:

@coolstanley said:
Interesting Looking at the Dallas top 50 above, that possibly the most popular pitcher in history(Nolan Ryan) is not on the list.

Ryan is way overrated.

Yet his cards are worth more than the better pitchers in his era ...a good lesson to be learned there

Ryan was a marvel. A spectacle. The 'Andre The Giant' of basesball in the 70's and 80's.

He was also very good and a worthy Hall of Famer. Hence his popularity.

He had an unusually long career and was still blowing hitters away in his mid 40's which is also a captivating to fans.

Ryan was a guy that people went to the ballpark specifically to see, especially at the end when everyone. knew Ryan's time was coming to an end.

He is also a guy that if he had the right organization, he may have learned his command earlier in his career and did better.

Ryan is now a pioneer. A model. He being born advanced pitching mechanics and velocity more so than anyone else. He was also a part of helping Randy Johnson learning his command.

There is greatness worthy of being immortalized there and deservedly so.

People who recognize all that don't then think that he was also the best pitcher ever. I have hardly come across anyone proclaiming him the best of his era. They all knew he had command problems and that other pitchers owned his era.

PS I agree on Kevin Brown too. He was filthy.

Goldenage · December 20, 2022 7:30AM

324-292 and a 3.14 era

Seems pretty average to me

1948_Swell_Robinson · December 20, 2022 7:39AM

@Goldenage said:
324-292 and a 3.14 era

Seems pretty average to me

Average? So half the players in MLB history did that?

1948_Swell_Robinson · December 20, 2022 7:45AM

@Goldenage said:
324-292 and a 3.14 era

Seems pretty average to me

You like those stupid memes with clubs.

Find me how many pitchers in MLB history had 5,300 IP, and a 112 ERA+.

Here is the kicker. How many people on these boards go on and on and on about batting averages and hit totals for batters as if they are the most important thing??

Nolan Ryan is the ALL TIME leader in giving up the least amount of hits per 9 innings. Yes, the all time leader!

Ryan led the league in giving up the least amount of his per 9 innings 12 times. 12. That is like twelve batting titles. So if you are one of those fans that used batting average as the benchmark for the greatest hitters, then that also means that you believe Nolan Ryan is the best pitcher ever. Can't have it both ways.

The all time leader.

How do you like them apples?

Goldenage · December 20, 2022 7:57AM

@1948_Swell_Robinson said:

@Goldenage said:
324-292 and a 3.14 era

Seems pretty average to me

Average? So half the players in MLB history did that?

Not even 10% of pitchers lost 292 games. No need to discuss.
Guy lost as much as he won.
Never dominated. Average to above average

1948_Swell_Robinson · December 20, 2022 7:58AM

@Goldenage said:

@1948_Swell_Robinson said:

@Goldenage said:
324-292 and a 3.14 era

Seems pretty average to me

Average? So half the players in MLB history did that?

Not even 10% of pitchers lost 292 games. No need to discuss.
Guy lost as much as he won.
Never dominated. Average to above average

I ask again.

You like those stupid memes with clubs.

Find me how many pitchers in MLB history had 5,300 IP, and a 112 ERA+, and a hits allowed per 9 innings of 6.6. I'm waiting.

Here is the kicker. How many people on these boards go on and on and on about batting averages and hit totals for batters as if they are the most important thing??

Nolan Ryan is the ALL TIME leader in giving up the least amount of hits per 9 innings. Yes, the all time leader!

Ryan led the league in giving up the least amount of his per 9 innings 12 times. 12. That is like twelve batting titles. So if you are one of those fans that used batting average as the benchmark for the greatest hitters, then that also means that you believe Nolan Ryan is the best pitcher ever. Can't have it both ways.

The all time leader.

How do you like them apples?

Goldenage · December 20, 2022 8:00AM

Over 3 era.
Same amount of wins as losses.
Average to above average.

1951WheatiesPremium · December 20, 2022 8:02AM

@JoeBanzai

You swapped my ‘great’ for your ‘superb’ but we were largely making the same points, otherwise. He was a really great pitcher for several seasons and there are also several where he just wasn’t.

Curt Schilling being a Hall of Famer is fine by me. I’m not saying you can’t make a strong case for him and for a pretty good variety of reasons. I have no problem with people who want to say his really solid career coupled with his postseason excellence gets him in - at all.

That said, a pitcher that is a slam dunk candidate to me has 300 Wins, 3,000 Ks and multiple Cy Young’s. Go look at the Hall of Fame players that were his direct peers and what the back of their baseball cards look like: Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Tom Glavine, Mike Mussina, Roy Halladay and whomever else I may have forgotten. To me, he was just a notch below all of them. Sure, there were seasons where he was better than some of them but he lacked the consistency of these other players, for the most part; I still consider IP to be a simple, important and relevant factor in determining a pitcher’s value.

1948_Swell_Robinson · December 20, 2022 8:03AM

@Goldenage said:
Over 3 era.
Same amount of wins as losses.
Average to above average.

So now it is above average, lol. Keep moving the needle. Now I ask again, and you can move the needle, AGAIN.

You like those stupid memes with clubs.

Find me how many pitchers in MLB history had 5,300 IP, and a 112 ERA+.

Here is the kicker. How many people on these boards go on and on and on about batting averages and hit totals for batters as if they are the most important thing??

Nolan Ryan is the ALL TIME leader in giving up the least amount of hits per 9 innings. Yes, the all time leader!

Ryan led the league in giving up the least amount of his per 9 innings 12 times. 12. That is like twelve batting titles. So if you are one of those fans that used batting average as the benchmark for the greatest hitters, then that also means that you believe Nolan Ryan is the best pitcher ever. Can't have it both ways.

The all time leader.

How do you like them apples?

Goldenage · December 20, 2022 8:06AM

It was overrated first 😂

Then it was average to above average. Please learn to understand what is written.

Ryan was NO Catfish Hunter in the postseason.

Average to above average

1948_Swell_Robinson · December 20, 2022 8:28AM

@Goldenage said:
It was overrated first 😂

Then it was average to above average. Please learn to understand what is written.

Ryan was NO Catfish Hunter in the postseason.

Average to above average

Aside from your first grade level analysis to come to the "average" conclusion, that has since moved to "above average," and now it is post season performance...

You are the same guy that said Lenny Dykstra is preferable to Willie Mays to have in the World Series based on those post season performances, so there is that. But again,

Considering your affinity for stupid memes without proper context...

Find me how many pitchers in MLB history had 5,300 IP, and a 112 ERA+.

Here is the kicker. How many people on these boards go on and on and on about batting averages and hit totals for batters as if they are the most important thing??

Nolan Ryan is the ALL TIME leader in giving up the least amount of hits per 9 innings. Yes, the all time leader!

Ryan led the league in giving up the least amount of his per 9 innings 12 times. 12. That is like twelve batting titles. So if you are one of those fans that used batting average as the benchmark for the greatest hitters, then that also means that you believe Nolan Ryan is the best pitcher ever. Can't have it both ways.

The all time leader.

How do you like them apples?

Goldenage · December 20, 2022 9:23AM

Ryan can’t carry Schillings postseason jock.

Apple sauce or cider for you 😂

1948_Swell_Robinson · December 20, 2022 9:27AM

@Goldenage said:

Ryan can’t carry Schillings postseason jock.

Apple sauce or cider for you 😂

Huh? Moving the goal posts again. Schilling is/was better than Ryan, so moot.

I am more concerned about your analysis that you learned in Miss Crabtree's class to come to the conclusion that Nolan Ryan was "Average."

I ask again.

You like those stupid memes with clubs.

Find me how many pitchers in MLB history had 5,300 IP, and a 112 ERA+, and a hits allowed per 9 innings of 6.6. I'm waiting.

Here is the kicker. How many people on these boards go on and on and on about batting averages and hit totals for batters as if they are the most important thing??

Nolan Ryan is the ALL TIME leader in giving up the least amount of hits per 9 innings. Yes, the all time leader!

Ryan led the league in giving up the least amount of his per 9 innings 12 times. 12. That is like twelve batting titles. So if you are one of those fans that used batting average as the benchmark for the greatest hitters, then that also means that you believe Nolan Ryan is the best pitcher ever. Can't have it both ways.

The all time leader.

How do you like them apples?

Goldenage · December 20, 2022 10:01AM

Lance Armstrong

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1948_Swell_Robinson · December 20, 2022 10:02AM

According to the adjusted pitcher runs above, Ryan was 216 Runs ABOVE LEAGUE AVERAGE. @Goldenage so he was NOT average. No need to use semantics. He was 216 runs above average.

When the runs are looked at independent of the defense then Ryan goes higher(but of course I always say that defense measurements are rough). That is a more in depth analysis, but the 216 will suffice.

When you later changed it to "above average," you become correct.

When you used Miss Crabtree's W/L record analysis and lifetime ERA with no context, and not even looking at the Innings pitched, then you lost yourself.

When you see that Ryan ranks 81st all time and say that is above average, yes it is. But considering how many MLB pitchers were employed in the history of MLB, being 81 is far from average or close to average. Above average yes, but much higher than your elementary analysis of saying he lost as many starts as he won(which is wrong in of itself anyway).

Just say he was 216 runs above average.

Then from there you can get into a more in depth analysis and consider if measuring against a league average player or against a league replacement level player is more important.

When you measure Ryan vs. a replacement level player then you will see his value go even higher due to his immense amount of Innings Pitched.

Don't forget, a league average player is of very high value...that is why those guys are now multi-millionaires.

Heck, even a league replacement level player is of high value...and why those guys are even millionaires.

What are not millionaires are the hundreds of milliions, or billions of people who were on the couch as Ryan was good enough to be employed for 5,380 innings in MLB, which is of very high value, and certainly nowhere near average.

Goldenage · December 20, 2022 10:02AM

Lance has a message for you swell