Jordan exposed. If you can prove this wrong STEP UP!
ebok
Posts: 304
1994 and 1995
Jordan's Clay Feet exposed
These two years are central in proving that Jordan is not the greatest ever. These two seasons will debunk a series of Jordan-based myths:
Jordan carried the team to 6 championships
Jordan made those around him better
Jordan was the most valuable player ever.
Jordan retired in October of 1993. The critics predicted gloom and doom for the Bulls. Extremist even declared that with Jordan, the Bulls wouldn't even make the playoffs. After all, Jordan supposedly carried those stiffs to three titles, right? These 4 assumptions were made:
The Bulls would be a much worse team without Jordan. They would probably slip at least 15 games.
If Jordan would come back, the Bulls would automatically win the title.
Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant would probably score more points, but they would shoot much worse, as defenses focused on them.
The Bulls would shoot much worse without Jordan.
Assumption 1: The Bulls would be a much worse team without Jordan. They would probably slip at least 15 games.
The first assumption was declared by nearly everybody. Even Bulls coach Phil Jackson predicted a 15-game slip in his autobiography, Sacred Hoops. He based this upon the retirement of superstars from the past. Replacing Jordan with by CBA journeyman Pete Myers should have been detrimental. These expectations weren't without reason.
The following table shows why 15 games was a reasonable number, and it also shows why Jordan didn't impact his team as greatly as other legends before him:
Year before losing player Year after losing player
Team Player Regular season Playoffs Regular Season Difference
(# of wins) Playoffs
1969 Celtics Bill Russell 48-34 Championship 34-48 -14 Missed playoffs
1973 Lakers Wilt
Chamberlain 60-22 NBA Finals 47-35 -13 Lost in first round
1-4
1974 Bucks Oscar
Robertson 59-23 NBA Finals 38-44 -21 Missed playoffs
1988 Celtics Larry Bird 57-25 Conference
Finals 42-40 -15 Lost in first round
0-3
1991 Lakers Magic
Johnson 58-24 NBA Finals 43-39 -15 Lost in first round
1-3
1993 Bulls Michael
Jordan 57-25 Championship 55-27 -2 Lost in 2nd round 3-4
Assumption 2: If Jordan would come back, the Bulls would automatically win the title.
This assumption were declared by those in 1995 who said, "the Bulls didn't win the title in 1994, did they?" While Jordan fans claim that he and he alone was single-handedly responsible for the title, they conveniently neglect 1995. Jordan did come back that season. However, the Bulls didn't have Horace Grant (and Dennis Rodman would not join until the next season). Without Grant, their rebounding and interior defense deficiencies were exposed by the Orlando Magic (Horace Grant's team, ironically), and the Bulls lost in the second round 2-4. As you can see in the table above, the previous year, without Jordan, they lost 3-4 in the 2nd round. Now if Jordan were single-handedly responsible for those titles, why did they do even worse in the playoffs after he returned than they did the year before, when they didn't have him?
Sure, they won the championship the following season, as Jordan fans like to point out, but they fixed their rebounding/interior defense problems by acquiring Dennis Rodman. Without Grant or Rodman, Jordan simply could not win a championship. After all, the team really didn't miss him that badly when he retired.
When 1995 is brought up, Jordan-supporters will invariably say "Jordan had court rust, what do you expect?" Jordan played 17 games that season. In 1986, Jordan played 18 games. In the 1986 playoffs Jordan scored a playoff-record 63 points. Why was Jordan able to shake the court rust in 1986 and not in 1995? Jordan fans usually claim that he got better as he got older.
Furthermore, to expose the double-standard, in 1969-70, Wilt Chamberlain played 9 games and then tore up his knee (similar injury to Charles Barkley's career-ending injury). He returned for the final 3 games of the regular season, and then took his team to the 7th game of the NBA finals (the famous Willis Reed game). Why is Chamberlain a "loser" and Jordan "has court rust"? Chamberlain's team went to the 7th game of the NBA Finals. Jordan's team couldn't even get to the 7th game of the Eastern Conference semi-finals. If Jordan is better than Wilt (and everybody else), then Jordan has no excuse for not leading the Bulls to the 1995 NBA Championship. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Losing to Orlando in the Conference semi-finals can only be described as a major choke.
Assumption 3: Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant would probably score more points, but they would shoot much worse, as defenses focused on them.
The third assumption was that Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant would probably score more points, but they would shoot much worse, as defenses focused on them. This appears to be a logical assumption. However, the logic is clearly seen when the hype is peeled away.
1992-93 (w/ Jordan) 1993-94 (w/o Jordan)
Name PPG FG% PPG FG%
Scottie Pippen 18.6 47.3 22.0 49.1
Horace Grant 13.2 50.8 15.1 52.4
Assumption 4: The Bulls would shoot much worse without Jordan.
The fourth assumption is that the Bulls would shoot much worse without Jordan than with him. That is because conventional wisdom says that a player of Jordans ability requires extra defensive attention, and that creates open shots for teammates.
In addition to this, the shooting percentage of the league has declined every year since 1989, so it is only logical to assume that even with Jordan, the shooting percentage of the team would decline, and without him it would greatly decline, correct? Not surprisingly, the Bulls' opponents shot worse (fg% and PPG) in 1994 (no Jordan) than in 1993 (with Jordan). I doubt that Pete Myers was a better defender than Jordan, so this fact only further proves the trend that I just mentioned.
Well, the Bulls, as an entire team, DID shoot worse. That is because Jordans field goal percentage was taken out, and his position was replaced by CBA journeyman Pete Myers, who was known for defense (in other words, a terrible shooter). Furthermore, Toni Kukoc was a poor shooting rookie in 1994 (.431 from the floor and .271 from 3-point range).
When you factor this out, you find that there were nine players who played with Jordan in 1993 and without him 1994, you see that they actually shot BETTER without Jordan (48.6%) than they did with him (48.2%). As I showed previously, this was also true of the top 2 scorers (Pippen and Grant). In contrast, the 1992 Lakers and the 1989 Celtics saw nearly everyone on the team fall in fg% and ppg, due to the absence of Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, respectively. This difference may not seem like much, but remember, Jordan is SUPPOSED to make life easier for teammates, not harder. And the trend in the league was decreased fg% every year. How could this be?
The answer is that players like Jordan do not make those around them better. Jordan has always been more interested in scoring his points than in helping his team. Whenever he was asked to score less, he rebelled.
In the 1989 Conference Finals, Bulls coach Doug Collins asked Jordan to pass more. Jordan had a hissy-fit and hardly shot at all, just to prove that his shots are needed. He took Collins request to an extreme. Rather than try to win the game, Jordan wanted to prove his own worth
When Phil Jackson took over as coach, he asked Jordan to not win the scoring title. Jordan rebelled.
Jordan often criticized the Triangle defense and openly questioned Phil Jackson and Tex Winter. He also said that the triangle was an outdated defense and that offense players had evolved past it. He also questioned Winter's qualifications.
Passing simply wasnt a priority for Jordan. Players like Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, and Larry Bird made their teammates better. However, as I previously showed, the Bulls who played with Jordan shot better without him. Jordan is supposed to have a huge impact on the Bulls, right? Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Oscar Robertson, Bill Russell, and Wilt Chamberlain had huge impacts on their teams in the W-L column, and Jordan is supposed to be better than them, isn't he? Could it be that Jordan simply wasn't as valuable to the Bulls as the legends listed above were to their teams?
Let's look at those 3 myths again:
Jordan carried the team to 6 championships - As I showed, the Bulls did not suffer greatly when he retired. When he returned, they didn't even make the conference finals, until they replaced their power forward.
Jordan made those around him better - I proved this collectively by showing that the players who played with him shot better without him.
Jordan was the most valuable player ever - He simply did not affect the W-L column, or the playoff performance as greatly as the other players that I showed above.
There can only be one conclusion from all of this: Michael Jordan is NOT the greatest basketball player ever.
0
Comments
Step up- no kids allowed
enough already, geesh
#1 MICHAEL OLOWOKANDI COLLECTOR
South Of The Border Cards
THE BEST SET IN THE WORLD...
BAD TRADER: AiRjOrDaN22
R.I.P Josher416
No amount of babbling coming from between your ears is ever going to change that FACT!!
LOL No kids allowed-Were you even out of diapers yet when Jordan was playing??
Dad & Son
! ! UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ! !
! ! Greatest Country on Earth ! !
! ! FREEDOM IS NOT FREE ! !
WANTS:Nicer Cal Ripken Inserts.
Also want RCs of current Football-Hockey future stars.
Bobstarvet@aol.com
References:We have traded with many traders on this forum.We can provide list on request.
57-25 with him the first 3-peat
55-27 without jordan the very next year! Some mvp huh?
Like I said- I want real bball fans to argue this not little kids who collect 2001 topps chrome cards. Stay out
H Y P O C R I T E
Stick to hockey.
Ski stick to jeter man.
Don't bash me bash mj he deserves it.
Who am I kidding though- most of you are a bunch of 12 year old kids who think iverson is the best basketball player in the world because of his scoring average.
<< <i>toto I don't hate mj at all, i'm just trying to get more than everyones one liners without being biased towards mj.
Who am I kidding though- most of you are a bunch of 12 year old kids who think iverson is the best basketball player in the world because of his scoring average. >>
i am 20... and i do not think Iverson is the best basketball player in the world...
wilt was the greatest ever.
kenny21 sporto bballrob88 lilsun1 vincesanity lee gaines sporto1688 gabe3249 (biechner) plante23 vittleboy bargasv msb416 dksportz8
Atleast pippen got to the wcf game 7 vs the lakers without jordan- What has mj done without pippen?
OOps he did it again
You have to consider "the best player ever" on a relative scale. Wilt was a physical freak when he played. He physically dwarfed and dominated everyone he played against. Now days, that wouldn't happen. If he played today i think he'd be a great center, but no way in he!l does he average 50 points and 20 boards a game playing against Shaq, Zo, or Hakeem, Ewing, Kareem, etc. during their primes.
Jordan kicked EVERYONES ass, all of the time. When he was in shape (which excludes his comeback years you are blabbing about), he didn't lose. You have obviously never played basketball. It is about rhythm, a groove, and timing. When you don't play in ACTUAL GAMES, you lose that momentarily, and it takes you a while to get it back. And when he got it back, he dominated again.
Everytime i think it is an impossibility that you get any dumber, you somehow prove me wrong and do just that. You have to be the single most ignorant, closed-minded person i have EVER come across in my 24 years
Erik
"Stop talking, negotiating,
Your feeble attempts at world peace
Give me a %#@*ing break
Need worldwide genocide, planetary suicide
And when the whole damn world is dead
there's your %#@*ing peace"
<< <i>your an idiot ebok...Jordan is the greatest player ever...Look at pippen now that he doesnt have jordan beside him...everyoen though that pippen would become a superstar because he didnt have to hide in the shaddow of jordan...they were obviously wrong pippen sucks ass now that he doenst have jordan. GET REAL >>
Pippen is way past his prime now, as is Jordan. They both should have retired (and remained retired) after the Bulls won their 6th championship.
57-25 with jordan
55-27 without him
pippen and horace grant shot better fieldgoal % and averaged more points per game without jordan
Argue that
I also agree with JEric20..Wilt was a freak in his time...destroying all inferior to him physically. Jordans physique and speed was not much different than those he played.
I agree with your points ebok...but disagree with the final conclusion. MICHAEL JORDAN is the greatest basketball player to play the game and is the standard of greatness that all in the NBA is measured too.
Thito....do you have the Wizards record pre-Jordan? Id like to see the numbers
Kevin - 25 - a Pistons fan in the Jordan era...biased until i saw the light of the GREATEST
Refs: Boopopo2, Samsgirl214, Remster, Chillinbij, SkiVermont3, dallas822, RepresentCards, Koolman2005
Ebayer in Perfect Standing (kfcjock)
References: Derrick(3),Teletubbie, MT Grinch, Kenny21, Awaltz, 2323, sypako, hondo, CoryZbinden(2)biggjc, boopopo2, Cardnyou, nismo68, Speedmaster, Baljit and more
Owner of the longest actual word in the "One word Post"
Washington Wizards Pre-Jordan Record: 19-63
Washingtom Wizards w/ Jordan Record: 37-45
Kevin
Refs: Boopopo2, Samsgirl214, Remster, Chillinbij, SkiVermont3, dallas822, RepresentCards, Koolman2005
Ebayer in Perfect Standing (kfcjock)
<< <i>haha the wizards didn't even make the playoffs. >>
it's not about making the playoffs... but since u brought that up, i'll be the first to say if Jordan didn't get hurt, the Wiz would have made the playoffs - easily!
i watched almost every Wizards game from the last 2 seasons and what Jordan did to this team was unbelievable... he made everyone around him better... no they didn't make the playoffs, but they won 18 more games with bascially the same team they had winning 19 TOTAL... and that's with Jordan injured half of the season... KFC gives u stats (something u adore) showing u how much better the Wizards got WITH Jordan and all u can say is "haha the wizards didn't even make the playoffs."... that's funny cuz everytime u give us stats and we say something along those lines, u say u proved us wrong... so did we prove u wrong?... Jordan is nowhere near the player he used to be, which of course is very understandable, but he is still the greatest to ever play the game...
END OF STORY
<< <i>IF IF IF...... THEY DIDN'T MAKE THE PLAYOFFS PERIOD.
END OF STORY >>
did u read my post?
maybe u were too occupied with Derrick suckin on your nuts...
I don't read if's and buts- I read facts and stuff that actually happens not mere if's .
<< <i>ACTUALLY I didn't read your entire post, because it was a bunch of if's and but's!
I don't read if's and buts- I read facts and stuff that actually happens not mere if's . >>
i used ONE "if" and ONE "but" in my whole post... maybe u should try reading it since it was full of facts that proved u wrong...
bye bye
<< <i>richard hamiliton had no part right? He hardly played last year
bye bye >>
where did that come from? and what are u talking about? explain like i'm a 5 year old since i don't seem to understand u..
<< <i>It's easy to get ThiTo mad...talking about sports over the internet and he gets mad. I can see him turning red and hitting sh*t right about now...especially when someone proves him wrong. How lame...I find it funny. But, he's still cool though...I admire ThiTo...heh heh
i get mad? u sure u weren't talking about yourself in that post? Derrick do u ever NOT be hypocritical? i really could care less... i reply to your posts because i enjoy proving people wrong... i really am NOT mad and i really could give 2 sh!ts... it's funny cuz u are the one that always gets mad and u are the one that always talks about sports over the internet... yet, u attack me... well if u feel like u have to, then go ahead - cuz i said it a million time - i don't give a fu^k... but i will defend myself and i will post a reply... i'm glad u admire me, but i really don't want my balls licked so thanks anyways...
How are you going to say it was all jordan that made a diffrence?
hamilton avg 20 ppg jordan avg 22ppg
hamilton shot better from the field and 3point range.
<< <i>Like I said - richard hamiliton. If you don't give this guy any credit you are not a wizards fan.
How are you going to say it was all jordan that made a diffrence?
hamilton avg 20 ppg jordan avg 22ppg
hamilton shot better from the field and 3point range. >>
u just don't get it, do u? of course i give Hamilton credit... just like Pippen, Jordan made Hamilton a BETTER PLAYER... look at the stats since u love them so much - all of Hamilton's numbers went UP the year Jordan played, or should i say BECAUSE of Jordan... it was ALL Jordan... i'm not sayin other players didn't contribute because OF COURSE they did... but say Jordan didn't come back, i wonder how many games the Wiz would have won then... Jordan's average was 22ppg because for 1) he was injured half the season and for 2) when he came back, he hardly played any minutes... it's not just Jordan's presence on the court, but it's off the court as well... his work ethic, his training, his everything... it all contributed to making the Wizards a better team... even your boy Dr. Jack said that... don't come at me with BS - why don't u start gettin some facts since u like telling everyone else to...
hamilton without jordan avg 18 ppg playing 32 minutes and he shot 43.8% from the field he avg 2.9 assists and .96 steals.
hamilton with jordan avg 20ppg due to playing 3 more mins avg 35 mins per game, he shot 43.5% which was worse with jordan and he avg less assists at 2.7 and less steals .60.
WRONG AGAIN TOTO
can you say I'M YOUR DADDY?
<< <i>Why keep cloggin' up the boards with this crap? Who cares...? Move on and get a life..... >>
no offense, but we care... i REALLY don't care to the extent they do, but i care enough to post... u don't have to read it... and it's not really crap, it's sports... but speaking of a life, i'm off work so i'll talk to y'all later!
<< <i>can you say I'M YOUR DADDY? >>
u can say it, but i don't know why you'd want to...
cmon say it
I M Y O U R D A D D Y
Actually, I do have to read it every time this pops to the top over someone else's post who's lookin' to do some tradin'. This post has been on here 5,000 different ways and it always says the same $hit. I could care less if you all want to play with the post, but this really should be in the chat area....
It's as easy as that son.
Seriously bud- get a job, get a friend, get a dog, get a homo-lover, just get something that doesn't resemble that pathetic existence of yours and lack of anything better to do than to waste everyones time with your complete idiocy
Erik
"Stop talking, negotiating,
Your feeble attempts at world peace
Give me a %#@*ing break
Need worldwide genocide, planetary suicide
And when the whole damn world is dead
there's your %#@*ing peace"
<< <i>HAHA I thought you just said jordan made hamilton better? I just proved to you he made him worse.
cmon say it
I M Y O U R D A D D Y >>
how many times have u said Kobe's numbers would go up WITHOUT Shaq? i can count MANY... so does that mean Shaq makes Kobe a better player... YES IT DOES... WITHOUT SHAQ, KOBE'S NUMBERS WOULD BE HIGHER... SAME AS HAMILTON... why? because u take away the MAIN SCORER... without Jordan or Shaq, OF COURSE Hamilton and Kobe are going to score more points since they take over the lead roles... who else is there to score?
so, who proved what?
<< <i>The real stats here are in the message posting. Derrick better watch out, because ebok is averaging 15 more posts per day, pretty soon he won't be top dawg anymore. That fact is probably more interesting than this entire thread. >>
First off, I don't know if that comment was serious, or you were just being a smart ass...but I could care less how many posts I got. The reason my post count is so high is because I post over on the Open Forum where there are actually intelligent people to discuss things with. Posting over there is fun and there's interesting topics to discuss. Maybe you should try it.