MIs-Attributed 1950-S DDR - FS-801
NorCalJack
Posts: 565 ✭✭✭✭✭
Well I just got my grades back and overall I am very happy. The only exception is the 1950-S FS-801 DDR. It came back as not the variety. I bought this in an NGC holder with the variety on it. I also confirmed to myself that it was the variety before I purchased it. Here is a photo of the reverse with arrows showing locations of doubling. The main doubling is the leaf just left of the arrows. There is an extra leaf tip. So I will be calling PCGS when they open to see if they can't look at that coin again before they send it back. At least they graded it an MS-66 so I am happy with that.
Here is my Washington Quarter Variety Registry Set
1
Comments
Nice coin! Did you make sure to mark the variety box on the submission form? They won't do attribution if you don't pay for it.
ddr 1, 3, 4 look a lot alike.
http://varietyvista.com/09b WQ Vol 2/DDRs 1950-S.htm
That appears to be very minor.... Perhaps they missed it... Let us know what you find out. Cheers, RickO
Well I just spoke to customer service (nice guy) and they will look at it again. Yes I did have the variety attribution on my submission. I turned in 8 coins all with variety attribution. 7 of the 8 came back with the right variety, except this one.
I'm sure if they look at it again they will see it. I know it is hard to see on some of these, but it is the correct variety.
I will let everyone know what they come back with.
Here is my Washington Quarter Variety Registry Set
This is my Washington Quarter Proof Variety Registry Set
Hey Jay,
Can you please post the picture of the Obverse? Now on all the ones I have seen there is a line on the Obverse to the right of the profile and that has been the way I have cherry picked mine, but recently another member told me that ALL of the ones with that line are NOT the ddr and that pcgs made a mistake.
Now if you go to coin facts you will see the MS 67 and a few of the 66 has that line. But there are others that do not. I would have them look again if they have not sent them out. I will try and figure out who sent me a note and when.
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
can we have the cert so we can tinker with it ourselves?
DANGIT. another post went to draft status and didn't actually submit. (i asked before you tommy, so you don't thnk i'm doubling or ignoring your post)
Here is the Trueview
Here is my Washington Quarter Variety Registry Set
This is my Washington Quarter Proof Variety Registry Set
OK so yours has the same marks on the obverse as mine including the die polish lines going thru in god we trust which matches the MS 67 and a few of the MS 66. Wonder if pcgs is ready to buy back all the ones that are wrong if your coin does not get the DDR?
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
Great, now I have to pull out ALL my 50-S's and double check them. Hey, I don't have time for this!! 😂 🤣 😉
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Well, it appears PCGS hasn’t decided which die actually made the 801 and is attributing two different dies as the 801. One die has die polish above the wreath ends right between the mint mark and the tail feathers while others show die polish elsewhere. They seem to appear with equal frequency, but I can’t access Variety Vista right now to confirm which is which.
Coin Photographer.
Even though your coin has most of the die markers, it is a late die state and many of the areas are mushy. When I look at the DDR-001, it looks like a closer match, especially the die scratches between the upper central leaves. Although I like looking for varieties, it also can be very frustrating.
varietyvista.com/09b%20WQ%20Vol%202/DDR%20Detail%20Pages/1950SDDR001.htm
the op coin matches the ddr 1 obverse. for my part, i'm still working on the reverse.
http://varietyvista.com/09b WQ Vol 2/DDR Detail Pages/1950SDDR001.htm
it also looks like the mm is in a diff position. none of the reverse markers were there on the op coin from V V, so i had to go to a different method of attempting to verify this one. i don't recall working with this ddr before. fwiw
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/46012174
http://varietyvista.com/09b WQ Vol 2/DDR Detail Pages/1950SDDR003.htm
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1950-s-25c-ddr-fs-801/145640
Update:
I have determined this is the DDR-001. However, PCGS attributes the DDR-001 and DDR-003 as the FS-801, so they should stand by that for your coin IMO.
Coin Photographer.
and while that may be true, for someone actually wanting the 801, they do need ddr 3, correct?
that is to say, that ngc, anacs, icg etc MAY not recognize ddr 1 as the 801? (i'm certainly not asking you to verify, nor am i, it is rhetorical)
Yes, for the true FS-801 you'd want the DDR-003. To me, it wouldn't matter since they're so close in terms of doubling.
DDR-001 (OP Coin Die, note die scratches in red):
DDR-003 (FS-801) (Note die crack and die scratches in red):
Variety Vista DDR-003 FS-801 images:
Die Scratches:
Die Crack:
NOTE: BOTH PCGS COINS I CIRCLED WERE ATTRIBUTED AS THE FS-801, THOUGH THEY HAD DIFFERENT DIES.
Coin Photographer.
who told you that? it is likely a mistake was made earlier. NGC says coneca ddr-003 and shows good doubling on wings...
https://ngccoin.com/variety-plus/united-states/quarters/washington-quarters-1932-1998/818199/
You can see it from the CoinFacts page. DDR-003 is the FS-801, but since PCGS has already called both 001 and 003 the FS-801 they might as well not stop now.
Coin Photographer.
this coin isn't the only situation where they combine die marriages into one variety and sometimes one of those is technically NOT an FS coin IF going specifically by marriage, so this is where a dealer/collector is best off, if they don't want "generic" fs attributions (ironic no?), to know how/where to get precise marriage diagnostic information.
this one is KINDA rare though as usually it is just one side or the other but in this case it appears BOTH the obv and rev are NOT the fs-801 but they are apparently lumped together OR pcgs is/has made/is making some attribution mistakes. again, this is NOT the first situation like this and probably won't be the last.
for my part, i really have no idea if they are lumping or just making mistakes but either way, there are coins being attributed under one FS number, where technically, the probably shouldn't be, especially in a 2 different die situation.
disclosure: i have NOT absolutely verified wile's attribution about whether or not there are any shared obv or rev for the 3 similar ddrs and nor do i have the coins and also not the desire. this is far as i go here, for now.
good work all !
I just checked my latest version of the CPG to see what they say ... FS-801 could be DDR-001, 003 or 004 .... but they have been wrong before ... this variety seems to be selling near $700 in MS66
Well I had a whole page already written and than saw your post. The CPG is exactly right and all 3 of those are lumped together which means Jay's Coin is correct and so are all the rest......Nice catch....
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
WOW
on 2 fronts. they are actually lumping 3 ddrs under one FS banner (where else is this being done?) and
two, this seems to technically NOT be a ddr at all but a possible re-hubbing. (what is a technical term besides rehubbing that specifies doubling/tripling etc?)
gotta say, as weird as i found the ddr to look, didn't see that one coming.
good job sucking me back in!
Wow you guys are amazing. At first I was upset that they attributed it wrong. Then a few hours later I was disappointed that it was probably DDR-1 and not a 3. Now if all three are being lumped together I am back to being upset that they have the attribution wrong. In Coinfacts they show 13 Trueviews and 10 of those are DDR-1 and 3 Trueviews are DDR-3 (as best as I can tell.)
The key to me was how high the leaf is just left of the arrows. It does have the look of a Type B leaf being above the arrows.
That is the PUP I used on the reverse to identify the DDR. We will see what PCGS has to say at the end of the day.
I just want to thank everyone for their research and opinions.
Here is my Washington Quarter Variety Registry Set
This is my Washington Quarter Proof Variety Registry Set
@LanceNewmanOCC The correct term for this type of doubling (involving two different hub designs) is Class III Doubled Die:
https://doubleddie.com/203885.html
Who / what is the actual authority PCGS uses? it is rather confusing and frustrating when you can find different things at different places. It would be nice if PCGS had a reference available online with the PUPs they use.
I enjoyed this clinic immensely. @NorCalJack thanks for your OP. Peace Roy
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by wrong, you mean they didn't attribute it at all, right?
i saw on the cert page it said minor variety which is a generic thing i think they were kinda pressured into for those that wanted SOMETHING on the label that at least recognized the coin has a variety of some type but nothing official or specific. (mostly psychosomatic imo)
Yes that is correct, the coin was not attributed as FS-801. I did not notice the Minor Variety on the cert. page.
Here is my Washington Quarter Variety Registry Set
This is my Washington Quarter Proof Variety Registry Set
it didn't have that at the top of the insert for you to see in-hand? i redacted this insert of a coin that someone has for sale online somewhere.
I don’t have the coin in hand. The grades just dropped last night and as soon as I did not see the variety attribution I called customer service to review that coin again before they send it out.
Here is my Washington Quarter Variety Registry Set
This is my Washington Quarter Proof Variety Registry Set
Well PCGS did review this coin as I requested and they did agree with my assessment and they did attribute the coin as a FS-801. So I am thrilled that they acknowledged their mistake and changed the label to the correct DDR.
Again I want to thank everyone that commented on this thread. Before I posted this thread I thought I knew this variety very well, but after getting everyone's opinions and analysis I learned so much more.
I know in my first post I wrote that the coin was already attributed by NGC, but later in reviewing my records I noticed that the coin was graded MS-66 by NGC, but was not attributed. I guess I cherry picked the coin so long ago I mis-remembered that it was attributed by NGC. At that point I really thought I had picked the wrong coin, but I had the good fortune of PCGS agreeing that it was an FS-801.
I guess I got my Christmas present a little early this year.
Well everyone take care and have a Merry Christmas!!
Here is my Washington Quarter Variety Registry Set
This is my Washington Quarter Proof Variety Registry Set
How did you get them to review it? I have a coin they missed as well, I'd love to know the process.
Coin Photographer.
I have the app on my phone and I got a notification that my grades were ready. This was on a Sunday night around 10 PM CST. I quickly went to my computer and saw they missed this coin. It was after hours so I called first thing in the morning and I was No. 3 in the Que. I had the option of having them call me back or hold, so I held for 20 minutes. I told the representative the submission number and the cert. number and I wanted them to review that coin again. He said they would put a hold on my order and review. The review took from Dec. 5th to today, Dec. 22nd.
I had another incident that this also happened on a 1943-S Medium S. I did not have the app on my phone then and by the time I realized the coins were graded and they mis-attributed the coin I called Customer Service. But by then the coins had already shipped. I had to send the coin back again and the second time the attributed the coin correctly.
Here is my Washington Quarter Variety Registry Set
This is my Washington Quarter Proof Variety Registry Set
Ok. Did they pay for shipping for the one you had to send back?
Coin Photographer.
No unfortunately.
Here is my Washington Quarter Variety Registry Set
This is my Washington Quarter Proof Variety Registry Set
Sounds good, thanks!
Coin Photographer.