2021 Peace Dollar Arrived Damaged. Toning Experiment.

BucketHead

Unfortunately one of my 2021 Peace dollars arrived with a shattered capsule and a bit of damage on the obverse.
I thought about making it a pocket coin but have always been fascinated by some of the colors that pop out in better examples of toned coins.
One of the reasons for my interest is that we have a collection that was inherited, maybe 500 silver coins from 1807 (bust dime) to a 2000 ASE. The one common thing about all of them is that there is no significant toning on any of them despite the fact they are in different generations of holders.
So I thought I would give it a try with my modern Peace.

So I put this in my window a bit over a year ago. Any guesses at what I wound up with?

ColonelKlinck

Just a guess, but I am thinking that the toning (if any) would be minimal due to the rinsing solution used on the planchets prior to striking?

BucketHead

So I left the reverse facing up.
Blew my mind when I opened it.

ColonelKlinck

Wow, don't I feel silly! What was it wrapped in?

privatecoin

Wow. That's impressive.

jacrispies

What does the obverse look like? Impressive results.

BucketHead

Frosty white obverse. I had planned on flipping it and waiting another year. Impatience got the better of me and I’m glad. I get less sun through this window in the summer which I believe explains the clear silver area in the 5:30-8:30 area.
Will try a rotation once a week on the other side

BTW. I did not treat this coin chemically. I stuck it in a piece of a paper bag and wrapped a few ends with Scotch tape.

hfjacinto

I have to say the reverse looks nice. But will it straight grade?

BucketHead

That’s a reasonable question and I don’t have a good answer.
Although I own coins that I have purchased graded I have never sent one in to be graded. I have no idea what the criteria is for evaluating toned coins.
The obverse on this looks to be struck o/c. Based on a flaw (which may not be visible in the last picture) I would put it at MS-64-65.
But I’m having fun with it.
Cheers.

airplanenut

@hfjacinto said:
I have to say the reverse looks nice. But will it straight grade?

With those colors? I’d venture a guess of not a chance.

BucketHead

@ColonelKlinck said:
Wow, don't I feel silly! What was it wrapped in?

No need to feel silly. Your opinion was well reasoned and in line with my expectations and opinion as well.

As I posted below, thin paper bag wrapping. One year rotated every three months. I expected a slightly diminished finish.

dunkleosteus430

I have a few coins in a box that are in a cardboard envelope. I'm gonna leave them in there for a long time.
This is a great experiment! I've wanted to use one of the 2021 Peace dollars as a pocket piece for a while. Unfortunately that would be unlikely with the prices they are bringing. I'll bet that your piece would bring a lot if you sold it in a straight graded holder.

hfjacinto

I wonder if you did it for only a month or 2 and rotated every week would it get some color and then straight grade. That would probably bring big bucks.

hfjacinto

@BucketHead said:

So I left the reverse facing up.
Blew my mind when I opened it.

It looks like the eagle is looking at a sunrise (golden hour)

BucketHead

I’m going to rotate the obverse once a week.
This was an exercise and I thought the result would be a bit of brown/black toning. Not the case.
I’ll post a picture of the obverse in two months.

BucketHead

With those colors? I’d venture a guess of not a chance.

Which bothers me. I have never stolen anything nor misrepresented anything of value.

Those colors are 100% environmental toning in the paper bag encapsulation I clearly demonstrated. I will gladly provide weekly updates as I tone the obverse.

airplanenut

@BucketHead said:

With those colors? I’d venture a guess of not a chance.

Which bothers me. I have never stolen anything nor misrepresented anything of value.

Those colors are 100% environmental toning in the paper bag encapsulation I clearly demonstrated. I will gladly provide weekly updates as I tone the obverse.

>
Your argument is a non sequitur. I never said you did anything dishonest, but you have a coin that I think has next to zero odds of straight grading. If you want to split hairs, you put the coin in an environment that is not natural for a coin; albums and boards and cardboard flips in safes are natural environments for storing coins. A paper bag in a window is not. Using your terminology, all toning is 100% environmental toning based on the environment. It’s just sometimes the environment is an oven or a chemical set. The market determines the acceptability of toning, and I don’t think the colors on your coin are acceptable.

Jzyskowski1

Sure sounds like what I’ve been saying all along. NT. AT. Is there really a difference? 😀

ricko

AT is tarnish that occurs due to intentionally providing the environment to rapidly induce the chemical reaction on the surface of the coin. There is no physical difference - unless special chemicals have been applied. Silver reacts with the sulfurs that occur in the environment, and will continue to progress as long as those elements are allowed to interact, to a point usually referred to - in the hobby - as terminal black. Removal of tarnish will take away the sulfurs and some silver from the surface of the coin. Cheers, RickO

MS66

@airplanenut said:

@BucketHead said:

With those colors? I’d venture a guess of not a chance.

Which bothers me. I have never stolen anything nor misrepresented anything of value.

Those colors are 100% environmental toning in the paper bag encapsulation I clearly demonstrated. I will gladly provide weekly updates as I tone the obverse.

>
Your argument is a non sequitur. I never said you did anything dishonest, but you have a coin that I think has next to zero odds of straight grading. If you want to split hairs, you put the coin in an environment that is not natural for a coin; albums and boards and cardboard flips in safes are natural environments for storing coins. A paper bag in a window is not.

What exactly is the meaning of the phrase "natural environment" in this context?

Is a traditional coin envelope not a "natural environment" in this sense? How closely may it be stored to a potential source of heat before it's no longer considered natural?

What if you happen to live near a paper mill? A lot of sulphur in the air there.

Please don't tell us that intentions matter. There's no way of judging a coin by that measure, even if they did.

psuman08

I agree with @ airplanenuet that this would not straight grade. This looks like quarters that I "stored" in my toaster for 10 minutes. I am also not saying that you did anything wrong, but there is not different levels to the toning that one sees with NT.

airplanenut

@MS66 said:

@airplanenut said:

@BucketHead said:

With those colors? I’d venture a guess of not a chance.

Which bothers me. I have never stolen anything nor misrepresented anything of value.

Those colors are 100% environmental toning in the paper bag encapsulation I clearly demonstrated. I will gladly provide weekly updates as I tone the obverse.

>
Your argument is a non sequitur. I never said you did anything dishonest, but you have a coin that I think has next to zero odds of straight grading. If you want to split hairs, you put the coin in an environment that is not natural for a coin; albums and boards and cardboard flips in safes are natural environments for storing coins. A paper bag in a window is not.

What exactly is the meaning of the phrase "natural environment" in this context?

Is a traditional coin envelope not a "natural environment" in this sense? How closely may it be stored to a potential source of heat before it's no longer considered natural?

What if you happen to live near a paper mill? A lot of sulphur in the air there.

Please don't tell us that intentions matter. There's no way of judging a coin by that measure, even if they did.

It's fine if you ignore intentions--you can go buy some old Wayte Raymond albums, throw in some coins, and let them go. Good chance they'll straight grade. Natural environment is a way of describing what is common. Are there coins stored in paper envelopes on window sills by collectors who live near paper mills? Probably, but I'd venture a bet that that doesn't make up a large percentage of coins in collections, and if they tone up differently than coins stored in much more common manners, the toning characteristics will likely get flagged as problematic.

Natural and Artificial Toning are both terms that aren't quite accurate--it's market acceptable or not. To that end, there are certain ways coins can be stored such that the effects of time have been largely deemed acceptable, and there are other ways where that is not the case. You can be the most well-intentioned collector and have a coin become AT because that's what the market says. You can be the most evil coin doctor and do everything just right, and a coin gets blessed as NT. Intention doesn't matter, results do.

Jzyskowski1

Sooooo
It’s down to intent. If I intentionally put the coin in an old folder or bag and it tones. No good.
But if it happens by “oh wow,look , I had no idea, it’s ok. 🤪

Thanks because I’ve been wondering how so many have a different view. It’s down to intent. Period the end. 😀

cheezhed

The toning looks induced by a substance even though OP said this was not the case.