Did you know: PCGS grading fees
VarietyFan
Posts: 33 ✭✭✭
I learned a couple things today that I find very hard to justify, condone or even accept.
I believe most know and are equally disturbed by the double dipping by PCGS with the "Guarantee Premium" charge being for the value of the coin in the new grade. Not the value of the coin in the new grade minus the value of the coin in the old grade. The simple fact the customer is paying grading fees, shipping and insurance twice to fix an obvious error in judgment by PCGS should be penalty enough. Certainly paying all these fees twice PLUS a percentage of the increase in value should be more than enough. But no, they also give no credit for the grade the coin already was.
However here's a couple of what I feel are even more very unfair and abusive fees some may be unaware of:
Let's say, as an example, you have a coin that's graded 65. Let's say according to PCGS price guide the coin is worth $200. Let's say the same coin is worth $500 in 66. You send the coin in for regrade or reconsideration via the proper (value of $300 or less) submission tier "Economy". The coin upgrades to 66. PCGS unilaterally charges for the next tier Regular! This seems ludicrous as the coin was submitted in earnest at the proper tier level when submitted and wasn't valued at $500 until the coin was regraded. Certainly I can see them doing this if someone is sending in a $500 coin and just writing $200 in for the value. But in the case at hand they're charging for something that's after the fact. Again, they're acquiring two grading fees and making the customer pay shipping and insurance twice to correct their error in judgement. But then they tack on "after the fact" fees. Further they reserve the right to charge an additional "penalty"! Penalty for what? Being a loyal customer?
The other is let's say you have what you believe is a variety coin in a standard holder. You send the coin in on the tier consistent with the existing label on their holder. You pay the $18 for attribution and, if the coin is in fact the variety (in their opinion) and relabeled as such they again change the submission tier (and price) according to the value of the coin after the attribution!
These seem very unfair to me, or at least glaring examples of absolute customer disrespect. . Am I missing something?
My guess is if you send the same submissions mentioned in under the higher grading tiers and the coin either doesn't upgrade or attribute there's no refund.
It just seems ethically and morally wrong. I just can't imagine, with the volume of business they have and the massive profits they're generating, why they can't exhibit a bit of kindness and respect for the very people keeping them afloat?
Comments
You may want to think about editing your post.
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If you thought the coin was correctly graded at 65 ($200), you wouldn't send it in for reconsideration, right? Since you did send it in, it must be because you think it should grade at least 66 ($500). So- why aren't you submitting it at that value?
You'd send it in as a reholder, which unless I'm much mistaken, has a value cap of one hundred thousand dollars for $18 plus the variety fee. If you have a variety that increases value by that much, I think many would happily pay the $300 for unlimited reholder. Keep in mind there are VERY VERY few varieties that are worth such a sum, if any.
Oh, and by the way, poof. If we were on a ship now, I'd imagine cries of "HAMMER HO!" would be ringing from the crow's nest.
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USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
He has till Monday at least till mom and dad come home. I do understand his complaint but this is there house.
Hoard the keys.
Did @VarietyFan post anything that was inaccurate? If not, for those of you who have indicated that you think he might be banned, what’s acceptable regarding being able to complain about grading fees and policies?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It’s a legitimate customer service question.
When it comes to reconsideration, I tend to dislike the spirit of our host’s policy too, but I don’t see it as an ethical or moral issue. It’s just the way they do business. It has always seemed a little odd to me to pay an expert a second time to change their professional opinion. I “get” why it exists - the market has asked for it and grading arbitrage is a big game for some. I can’t think of another industry where this is an acceptable practice.
At the end of the day, if you don’t like the policies, don’t use their services. Simple. There are other grading companies out there.
This!
No one forces you to slab anything. If you know the price of a service and you choose to use that service, then don't complain. If you pick a 5 star restaurant, choose to buy the Kobe beef, then you really have no right to complain about the bill.
There are two clear "inaccuracies": the upgrade and the variety. As @MasonG pointed out, a coin submitted for regrade or variety attribution should be valued at the higher grade upon submission, not the lower grade. An unattributed variety is still the variety. And a 66 coin in a 65 holder would only sell at 65 prices in a sight unseen transaction.
More directly to your point, I don't think there is any inaccuracy to the fees he mentions, but context counts. Saying that a burger place charges $10 for a burger is accurate. Saying that a burger place charges $10 for a burger because they are a bunch of thieves trying to take advantage of their customers is no longer simply an "accurate" factual statement.
Why should a coin be submitted at the higher variety or grade value, when there’s absolutely no assurance that it will be attributed or graded differently, upon resubmission? There are countless examples of resubmissions not resulting in a changed variety designation or higher grade.
And if, as you stated, a 66 coin in a 65 holder would only sell at a 65 price in a sight unseen transaction, how do so many coins of grade X trade on a sight seen basis for X value, but later get upgraded to grades higher than X?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
As for the guaranteed premium, there's one gross inaccuracy: an upgrade need not be due to an "error in judgment", it could be due to changing standards.
As for the insurance fee that you are paying for the guarantee, you are right. They should not be charging it that way. They should charge you an ANNUAL fee based on the current market value.
If you buy a house, they don't charge you a one time insurance fee at the time of purchase. You are asking PCGS to charge a one time fee and then provide for increased price guarantees if the coin goes up in value. That is still tremendous value and they have to find that guarantee.
You treat all of these scenarios as though they all occurred in one year. Suppose I slab a coin today that is worth $5000 and pay for the guarantee. I then sell it 6 times and 30 years later someone resubmits the coin and it is worth $100,000 in the new holder. You want him to get credit for the fees I paid 30 years earlier? And to the other piece of that, suppose I holder a coin with $5000 and 30 years later YOU pay $100,000 and finds there is an error. Do you want $5000 in guarantee, which is what I paid for, or do you want the $100,000 guarantee?
PCGS is asking people to pay the fee for what the holder that the coin ends up in. I really don't think that is inappropriate. I will amend my comment to say that perhaps I need not submit at the higher level but it doesn't really seem inappropriate that PCGS fixes my submission mistake.
I mean, if I submit a $10,000 raw coin there's always a chance it comes back counterfeit. Should I submit it as economy because I think it could be fake?
My assumption for reconsideration is that the coin is a 66 not a 65. It's not ridiculous to consider that I maybe should choose that tier upon submission.
This discussion hasn’t been about ungraded coins, but rather about graded ones with accompanying price guide values in most cases. Granted, it’s a lot trickier when assessing values for ungraded coins.
I disagree with assuming for reconsideration/grade purposes, that a coin in a 65 holder is a 66.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It's for these reasons, I no longer submit. Throw in the thievery at the mailing services and it takes all of the fun out of submitting coins to the TPG's.
That’s understandable and at the same time, very sad to read.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
But if you had to send your Kobe beef back to the kitchen because it wasn’t cooked right and the restaurant charged you again for your steak because they had to cook it twice, you’d be less than pleased.
To be fair, it can be confusing.
I have found unattributed VAM's at 20X the common value.
I cost myself some money by grading instead of reholder.
If I am sweating a couple large Domino pizzas on a submission... I got more issues than coins.
To trash PCGS... PBM maybe?
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Both services have been looking for how to take their share of the upgrade game that invariably occurs with subjective grading and standards .
I do feel like there is a conflict of interest in creating a financial incentive for the services to not get the grade right the first time and to be accountable for their own grading standards. This fee structure incentivizes a loosening in standards, not a discipline in standards.
Do I think they deliberately error to profit, no. But the fee structure does create an inherent conflict.
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I don't do the grading game, but I have been on the forum for quite awhile now. Regardless of accuracy or inaccuracy, this is their forum and any thread that I have seen that is negative towards pcgs will get poofed and or OP banned usually happens with no response from the Mod. On the flip side, people should read all the fine lines on submission pricing before submitting. Jmo
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That's right, just ban or censor this guy for a legitimate question or concern. Which will make me even "less" likely to use their services.
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Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
And now you know why the big players crack out 98% of their stuff.
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The logic behind my previous comment is that if the coin is in a 65 holder and you thought the coin was a 65, you wouldn't send it for reconsideration. Since you're sending the 65 for reconsideration, it's because you think it's a 66 so why wouldn't you value it as such?
If you value the coin as a 65, it gets upgraded to 66 and then lost in the mail, are you going to file a loss claim for the 65 value or the 66?
What about having upgraded coins insured for higher values, when returned?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Love these weekend threads, always entertaining.
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Neither situation has ever happened to me...that an upgrade from a reconsideration or regrade placed the coin's value in a higher tier so PCGS charged that new tier rate. Or that an attribution established a higher value and that higher value bumped the coin into a more expensive service, which PCGS then charged.
I don't do much in the economy tier (under $300). Most of my submissions are regular tier (under $2500). So maybe it's less common for coins to jump out of the regular tier than economy. And PCGS is focused on the more commonplace jumps. That's just a wild guess to explain this, if what OP is saying is really happening.
Or maybe there's a new policy I'm unaware of.
PCGS has always dealt with submitters who try to skirt the higher tier by lowering their valuation estimates. That seems only fair. Mostly they address gross violations.
Lance.
Their stated increased costs on upgrades may be legal boiler plate in the case of huge increases in value. I can see a business' need to have charges in keeping with their business costs including insurance. I'm curious what the cost of grading would be for an 1812/1 Bust 50c large 8 or is that a redbook listing without extra cost? Also if a coin comes back details even a rare one I assume there would be no increased variety charge. I'd think that any cost of certification even upgrades would be around what it would have cost originally to get the coin in that holder.
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I think you need to check your facts. If you send a previous graded coin into PCGS for either: Cross over, re-grade, or reconsideration, then you will have to pay the required percentage of the coins value as a premium.
If you send a previous PCGS graded coin in for a new holder, you only have to pay the re-holdering fee besides the submission form fee and return shipping / insurance.
If you send a previous graded PCGS coin in for a variety attribution, you only have to pay in addition to the submission form fee and return postage / insurance, the re-holdering fee plus the variety attribution fee. There is no percentage premium for the new value of the coin.
If you send a previous PCGS coin in for a TrueView photo, you only have to pay in addition of the submission form fee and return postage and insurance, the fee for reholdering and photographing.
The finial value premium percentage only applies if a graded coin is sent in, and a grader has to look at it or if the value of the raw coin is a rarity. If you don't want to pay the 1% premium for re-grade, cross overs or reconsideration, just crack the coin out of the current slab and submit it raw. Just remember that if you crack the coin out, you will not be guaranteed the same grade that was on the label.
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Are you saying that if you submit a coin for regrade or reconsideration and it upgrades, you pay the increased value premium, but not the regrade/reconsideration submission fee?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
One of the guarantee premium fees that I don’t agree with is restoration coins that are submitted raw. If I submit a coin raw for restoration that has spots and would accurately be graded ms65, gets cleaned up and still grades ms65, pcgs charges me the 1% premium of the price guide value. If I submit that same coin in a pcgs ms65 holder for restoration and it comes back as a ms65, I get charged a flat $10 restoration fee. Not fair at all.
It’s like they assume your coin is worthless and is a details grade if submitted raw, but if it’s already holdered, they take that value to start. I never submit raw restoration coins any longer because of this. Not every coin is going to upgrade with a restoration, and I think pcgs should grade raw restoration coins before AND after the restoration process to accurately access the guarantee premiums.
No. I was only talking about when the extra 1% for finial value fee has to be paid. You still have to pay the tier level you sent the coin in for.
Thank you. That’s what I thought, but wanted to be sure. I believe that one of the OP’s points was that a submitter who has a regraded coin upgrade, ends up having to pay a submission/resubmission fee twice and an a value-increase premium on top of that.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
For many people who want TPG coins this is the best route. Buy them in the already in the holder.
No, @MFeld. OP is saying that if the coin upgrades and its new value exceeds the tier under which it was originally submitted, the submitter suffers the higher tier cost.
Similarly, OP says the same happens with an attribution that results in a more valuable coin. If it jumps tier levels the submitter pays the higher cost.
As I said earlier I have never experienced this. But perhaps something has changed recently.
Lance.
Lance, there was a lot in the original post and it appears that we’re talking about different parts of it. He also mentioned having to pay more than one grading fee and a value-increase premium in the case of an upgrade. Among other things, he stated:
“ The simple fact the customer is paying grading fees, shipping and insurance twice to fix an obvious error in judgment by PCGS should be penalty enough. Certainly paying all these fees twice PLUS a percentage of the increase in value should be more than enough. But no, they also give no credit for the grade the coin already was.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Not all of the OP complaints involved alleged errors.
And assuming that 2 different opinions represent an "error" in the first opinion is also fallacious.
You're going to get paid for the 65 value.
Isn't the issue that for a graded coin you've shay already paid the 1%. If they charged it again, they'd be double charging and you'd be complaining about that.
That would only happen in cases where I’ve had the coin in for restoration multiple times (which is extremely unlikely for most people). Think I’ve only submitted 1 coin ever for multiple restorations because pcgs didn’t get it fully cleaned up the first time.
No, but they suggested it which makes it just a bad!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I don't see where anyone "suggested" that PCGS do that. As @jmlanzaf said, it was predicted, which is very different from suggesting it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If it's in a holder, somebody paid it.
He should have just sent it to CAC.
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Gotcha, @MFeld . I see what you were getting at.
I may be in the minority but I never think a new, different grading opinion means there was "an obvious error in judgment" in the past.
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Lance.
Okay, they didn't predict it and they didn't suggest it. They enabled it, encouraged it and insinuated it by saying:
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
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