Unless you have some specific silver eagles or modern commemoratives in that 1963- 2018 group, I would say don't do it.
I am not sure of your age or time to learn new stuff, but I imagine keeping current with Asian modern art; Asian art, antiques and antiquities; Western fine art; fossils; ethnographic items, among other things takes a good chunk of time.
I also do not know where you live, but guess there are already some good numismatists within a couple hours drive.
Your clients that have presented or asked about their coins, do they currently collect? Maybe they could join and submit.
Most of the sets you described are available for less than $30, some less than $5.
MasonG, thank you! That makes a lot more sense (and unfortunately less cents!), as the 1972-S also does not have an S on it! So, I was just researching again, and thought, "I have to be missing something!" Damn! Well, at least I knew to look, despite being wrong! Life is life. It also makes a lot more sense as I was grading as MS, not PR for all of these OGP sets, and only the 1971-S No So was a proof in that case! Thank you, Greg.
jonathanb, Interesting lesson about the red book! Thank you, I believe I get it!
davewesen, Thanks! I get why not to do it! Lots, and lots of my time into reviewing all of these coins and the mint/proof sets already! Plus, the needs to learn, and learn, and learn, and.... I was 18 years old yesterday, today I am 58, going on 100! Yes, I essentially put in endless time learning about the areas I specialize in, and thus my understanding and respect of the numismatists expertise! I have several numismatists/coin dealers I have found closer to me, just no PCGS people near by. My clients are not serious collectors, I think that has been proven by the collection quality. And, they do not seem to have collected anything other than these Mint/proof sets since 2018. I appreciate your input, as it is clear most of these sets are not worth much. But, it was a very good lesson all in all.
Greg, please, please, please don't do anything (financial) until you are 100% sure of the difference between MS and PR. You likely have a high percentage of PR 69 and a few PR 70 coins in the proper sets. I'd be astonished if you had any MS 69 coins and can say with some authority that you don't have any MS 70 coins. Even an MS 68 is likely to be worth more than a PR 70 for the dates you're looking at.
Edit: if you have a soft package that has one of these
or a rigid package then you have a proof set with coins graded on the PF scale. Otherwise you have coins graded on the MS scale. 1965, '66, and '67 are exceptions as they are neither fish nor fowl.
daltex, Thank you for that information! I know I MUST be careful before sending anything in, in greatest part, as it will not be my money being spent on the grading! Thus, why I am trying my best to be as careful and as "accurate" as possible! I have seen that "token" but not in their sets. The tokens in the other sets are plastic and different, so MS.
yspsales, Thank you! I really do get my level as a neophyte. I do have two coin dealers with "decent" reputations I have tracked down, and I will bring in all of the coins that I have weeded out that might have any potential for their opinions. I just finished getting through all of the mint' proof sets yesterday finally - finding a wrong coin, thinking it was the right one by the way, as you know from this thread. Happy to be corrected and to learn. I am not expecting to become a numismatics expert, but I should have enough ability to say to clients, "We may want to look into this more deeply," versus skipping over things simply becuase I have NO idea. Now I have some clue about how to be careful, and things to look for. I call this being "dangerous, but ignorant!" Thus, why I need someone better than me by a LOT to take a look before I recommend to my clients which coins to consider for grading, if any! I say that for a completely neophyte, handling about 800 - 900 total coins at this point has not only been a trial by fire, but for me a large volume. On the first coin, it took me about 1 hour just to figure out how to research it, then how to consider grade at all, etc... I have this time way down now, which helps, but does not make me confident in my opinions! You numismatists are HIGHLY specialized, HIGHLY detail oriented, and that is very clear - and now I understand why after seeing how prices suddenly jump up.
My client does have two unopened rolls of 2005-D and 2005-P Kansas state quarters, and two unopened rolls of the Washington State D and P quarrelers. I will be asking them if I can open at the rooms to check for superior versions, as generally they are not worth much in the condition of the end coins. That is my last task before going in to see the dealers, and then give them a final list for suggested grading. I bet I have spent at least 100, if not 200 hours on these three collections. Unpaid by the way! I will only get paid if I sell the collections, so I have a vested interest in getting things right, not biased!
That is my last task before going in to see the dealers, and then give them a final list for suggested grading. I bet I have spent at least 100, if not 200 hours on these three collections.
@browntrout based on the number of coins you described, you should have found at most a handful of coins worth getting slabbed. If you think you have more than that, you might consider very carefully about how much money you are willing to lose.
You should expect to get slabbed grades that are 2-5 points lower than whatever you think you'll get. You'll most likely lose money on every single coin you send in, so better to lose on a handful than to lose on dozens or hundreds.
Again: Do you have a Red Book? Do you see the listed values for each set that you have? Could you quote one of those prices here so that somebody can confirm that you are looking at the right things?
While it is possible to find sets that are worth more than the listed prices, it is also very unusual to do so. And even more unusual when looking at the small numbers of sets that you've described.
Again: Do you know how much it will cost to get each coin slabbed? Can you quote an estimate of the cost? As a hint, in many cases the cost of slabbing a single coin will exceed the value of an entire set -- sometimes by 5x or more.
Before you make an expensive mistake, could you maybe post pictures of the single piece that you think is most worthwhile to get slabbed, and see if anyone agrees with that?
So, let me ask about the VAM/Van Allen-Mallis, die mark studying thing with Morgans and Peace Dollars. I looked into this a while back while looking at a few of my friends Morgans and Peace Dollars. It was very interesting, and made a lot of sense to me. Is this something I should also pursue while at this deep learning curve with the many Morgan and Peace Dollars in two of these three collections? It makes a LOT of sense to me, as it must be VERY hard to fake those marks with any accuracy at all at this time, though it will be in the future with 3-D scanning, etc...
Thanks cladking! There is no question I am faster, but know I am an infant, Greg.
@jonathanb said:
While it is possible to find sets that are worth more than the listed prices, it is also very unusual to do so. And even more unusual when looking at the small numbers of sets that you've described.
And even more unusual than that for someone with minimal experience grading coins.
@browntrout said:
So, let me ask about the VAM/Van Allen-Mallis, die mark studying thing with Morgans and Peace Dollars. I looked into this a while back while looking at a few of my friends Morgans and Peace Dollars. It was very interesting, and made a lot of sense to me. Is this something I should also pursue while at this deep learning curve with the many Morgan and Peace Dollars in two of these three collections? It makes a LOT of sense to me, as it must be VERY hard to fake those marks with any accuracy at all at this time, though it will be in the future with 3-D scanning, etc...
Thanks cladking! There is no question I am faster, but know I am an infant, Greg.
Kindly, you are wasting your time and losing money on the midern proof and mint sets. 99% of them have nothing remotely special in them. I'm a part time dealer for 25 years and I rarely look beyond the presence of the coins before sending them off to a wholesaler at 25% back of bid. Most dealers do the same Everly for a look at the 1970 small date large date and the 1979/1981 Type 1/2.
Being even more honest, some of those mint sets are worth more in the coinstar than being sold.
Silver dollars are a more profitable area. But, again beyond honest, 99% of the Morgan or Peace dollars that come through are going to be nothing special. Anyone with a better collection and any experience is going to go to one of the established auction houses. But with time, you could carve a niche. But again, kindly, a bunch of silver dollars that came in with a bunch of proof and mint sets are going to be 99% common date coins best sold as bulk.
VAMs are as easily counterfeited as any other coin using transfer dies.
@browntrout said:
So, let me ask about the VAM/Van Allen-Mallis, die mark studying thing with Morgans and Peace Dollars.
Something to be aware of when looking for VAMs (or varieties in general) is that except for a small number of the most popular ones, most collectors looking for them are looking to cherrypick them rather than pay a premium for one that has already been identified. One of the local dealers told me he'll have buyers come in and want to look through proof/mint sets for cameos or varieties while ignoring the ones that are already displayed and available for purchase in his case.
There are exceedingly few people who can tell the difference between a PR69 vs PR70 coin. Kindly, you won’t be one of them and you’re better off playing the lottery. Save your time and money.
Kindly, you are wasting your time and losing money on the midern proof and mint sets. 99% of them have nothing remotely special in them. I'm a part time dealer for 25 years and I rarely look beyond the presence of the coins before sending them off to a wholesaler at 25% back of bid.
You're leaving a lot of money on the table for the last year.
Nice sets are easily wholesaled now days between 90 and 125% of bid and bid is sharply higher. If you have bad sets they will be more difficult to sell and 75 to 90% is about the best you can do.
Being even more honest, some of those mint sets are worth more in the coinstar than being sold.
This was true up until a year ago. Ironically the best two dates ('68 and '69) you might do best selling the half dollar and spending the rest. These markets have always been "funny".
Ikes are smoking hot right now and every mint set Ike is worth at least $3.50 wholesale providing they are chBU. Trying buying a few of these that are attractive and lustrous and see what they cost!!!
In "900" mint set coins there isn't a high probability of having o9ne worth grading but the odds aren't that poor. I used to figure there was always something in only 300 mint set coins. But, the market only appreciates the best one of about 10 of these today (3000 coins).
I believe the "fault" lies in the market, not the mint sets. By the time this fault is corrected there will be no more mint sets available at anything approaching current pricing. We are running out of mint sets even before most collections have even begun. Where are people going to get nice choice '76 type I Ikes with only a handful coming to market each year? These coins are mostly gone now because so many have been put into circulation by collectors and dealers and the few left are not going to come onto the market any faster even if prices increase many fold. Most sets are lost in the back of the public's closet or held in strong hands. WYSIWYG and you just don't see many desirable mint set coins or many mint sets any longer.
There was a time every dealer had stacks and stacks and every day more walked into the shop. They didn't sell very well then and now that most are gone they still don't sell well. But people still want some of these moderns so the price of the mint sets is up sharply. I don't know how this can change. even macroeconomic conditions would have relatively little effect on such a tiny market that is growing in leaps and bounds.
I inherited a bunch of mint sets and coins, I learned the hard way that even when a coin looks really really good,
odds are ‘really good’ isn’t enough for coins 1960+.
I graded a lot of coins that I know now I probably shouldn’t have graded, I don’t mind because I see it as part of my education,
but if you’re looking at coins for profit, probably not advisable to grade mint/proof set coins.
I agree with the advice to take the mint sets to a coin dealer for a review, or you could post some close photos here and we can look (just make sure photos are close and in focus, the new iPhone camera works great).
It’s hard to see the beauty of a coin in photos, but photos would give a general idea ‘check that one out’ or not —
I graded a number of coins, and I got lucky with a couple of the coins, but it’s been more of an learning adventure and discovery of the beauty of coins than a for-profit enterprise 😍.
From a profit point of view? You probably don’t have anything worth grading, but only someone experienced with coins can tell you for sure ❤️
Kindly, you are wasting your time and losing money on the midern proof and mint sets. 99% of them have nothing remotely special in them. I'm a part time dealer for 25 years and I rarely look beyond the presence of the coins before sending them off to a wholesaler at 25% back of bid.
You're leaving a lot of money on the table for the last year.
Nice sets are easily wholesaled now days between 90 and 125% of bid and bid is sharply higher. If you have bad sets they will be more difficult to sell and 75 to 90% is about the best you can do.
Being even more honest, some of those mint sets are worth more in the coinstar than being sold.
This was true up until a year ago. Ironically the best two dates ('68 and '69) you might do best selling the half dollar and spending the rest. These markets have always been "funny".
Ikes are smoking hot right now and every mint set Ike is worth at least $3.50 wholesale providing they are chBU. Trying buying a few of these that are attractive and lustrous and see what they cost!!!
In "900" mint set coins there isn't a high probability of having o9ne worth grading but the odds aren't that poor. I used to figure there was always something in only 300 mint set coins. But, the market only appreciates the best one of about 10 of these today (3000 coins).
I believe the "fault" lies in the market, not the mint sets. By the time this fault is corrected there will be no more mint sets available at anything approaching current pricing. We are running out of mint sets even before most collections have even begun. Where are people going to get nice choice '76 type I Ikes with only a handful coming to market each year? These coins are mostly gone now because so many have been put into circulation by collectors and dealers and the few left are not going to come onto the market any faster even if prices increase many fold. Most sets are lost in the back of the public's closet or held in strong hands. WYSIWYG and you just don't see many desirable mint set coins or many mint sets any longer.
There was a time every dealer had stacks and stacks and every day more walked into the shop. They didn't sell very well then and now that most are gone they still don't sell well. But people still want some of these moderns so the price of the mint sets is up sharply. I don't know how this can change. even macroeconomic conditions would have relatively little effect on such a tiny market that is growing in leaps and bounds.
Disagree. Check face value against 75% of Grey.
And, if you ignore your time, you could make money sorting sets, slabbing a few coins, retailing a few sets. Very few dealers bother. Why do you think that is? Because they hate money?
And those are coin dealers, not art dealers. He's already spent more time on those sets than they are worth.
@jmlanzaf said:
And those are coin dealers, not art dealers. He's already spent more time on those sets than they are worth.
I think so too. Based on what I remember has been posted (don't want to go back and re-read the whole thread so I could be wrong), I'd be surprised if there was more than $150 or so in value in the sets.
@cladking said:
After you've been at this a while you don't need any time at all because you can smell Gems from half a city away.
I have a difficult time determining much of anything through the mylar on the mint sets. If I take them all out, I don't have much more value than face.
@cladking said:
After you've been at this a while you don't need any time at all because you can smell Gems from half a city away.
I have a difficult time determining much of anything through the mylar on the mint sets. If I take them all out, I don't have much more value than face.
Seeing through the plastic does involve a lot of learning. And similarly to learning how to grade from pictures you'll be wrong sometimes. No matter how sure I am that a coin in a mint set has nice pleasing surfaces it might have bad surfaces when removed. While large scratches and planchet problems can always be seen by moving the coin in the holder there can be extensive small scratches that you don't see. Luster also can change a little when removed.
One of the most important things when grading and even more important when looking at coins in mint set plastic is to use a strong incandescent light. Put the light beyond the mint set and above. It is very important with clad to move the coin at various angles to the light source. Most metals show scratches fairly readily at any angle but scratches on clads mostly disappear at steeper angles.
It really goes pretty fast with experience because Gem just right out and because you just learn to twist the sets as you move them. Once in a while you'll have to move a coin in the plastic or take a closer look. You probably can miss a few if you try to go too fast, though.
I always try to have a low power glass to scan for varieties and an 18X loupe for confirmation.
For checking some mint sets it's easier to take them out of the packaging and looking through ten or fifteen of the red or blue packets at a time especially if one of every denomination needs the glass. Back before I knew what each coin looked like this was necessary to have other coins to immediately compare to. If I didn't do this I'd select the quarter in "every" 1972 mint set. If you're checking someone else's sets then getting them back in the envelopes and being sure every reject is a good mint set is easier. Most dealers will let you mix and match which also saves you having to buy large numbers. There are still a lot of really nice mint sets out there because every cherry set and every Gem is not destroyed. These sets have been set aside by collectors for many years and sometimes they picked over sets. It was also very common practice to buy five sets and sell four of them at a nice profit. Most real collectors made some attempt to save the nicest one. I've even run into small quantities of such sets.
there are a lot fewer heavily picked over sets out there than people might think but they did start showing up back in the mid-'90's. Sure some varieties, and PL's are very unlikely to be seen now days but most individuals simply won't bother with an MS-67 dime so will pass right over it. Everybody misses stuff. It wasn't unusual to find a '70-S sm dt in sets cut up for the half dollar and he sm dt. And all the varieties and Gems were usually ignored.
The problem now days is finding the sets because for the last 50 years they have been getting destroyed thousands at a time because nobody wanted them. I'd hardly be surprised if there are more shop worn sets out there now days with damaged, brittle, discolored, and scratched up plastic. In the old days good clean envelopes represented 95% of mint sets and only about 2% were shop worn. Even the most abused mint sets you can usually get a very good idea what's in them even though you can guess before you slide any around. And you might feel the need to wash your hands after touching them.
MasonG, Got it! Yes, I know I have very limited experience, just trying to do the best I can for these people.
jmlanzaf, I understand completely, thank you for your warning. I am NOT trying to make money on this process, I AM, 1) trying to make sure my client does not get ripped off, and 2) trying to learn so I can at least be what I refer to as "dangerous enough" to recognize when something should be looked at again at someone home, and then taken in to a professional, let alone get graded.
May I ask you jmlanzaf, can you please elaborate on your comment, "before sending them off to a wholesaler at 25% back of bid." Especially the 25% back of bid," thanks. This is some of the advice I am trying to learn for the client, while I learn more about numismatics. How to send them (or me) to the right places for the right coins. Heritage/DL for special coins, dealers/wholesalers for unimportant coins, garbage at Coinstar, etc... I would love some direction on that!
The Morgan and Peace Dollars, I got it - basically the same as the Mint/Proof sets, rare to find anything - but, that is the fun in the search, ins't it? Also, it has been huge in teaching me about various coins, grading, how to look at them, VAMs, and everything else. I also find it interesting that VAMs can be counterfeited so easily already! However, in working with Chinese art and antiques, I am not surprised in the end. They are some of the best in the world (and worst), in making forgeries! Thanks.
MasonG, yes, I see that cherry picking is a big part of numismatics! I am not surprised at your comments!
Catbert, thank you for the advice and warning. Part of my goal in this process is to learn, learn, learn, and that is happening in spades with this work. They also have about 600 loose coins too, and I have examined every single one of them!
cladking, Interesting comments! Thank you.
Davidcoins, thank you for your comments, and advice. I am understanding all of this from everyones comments and advice. My goal this week is to get all of the photos of "possible" good items, and then to see two dealers for opinions. I would be happy to submit them here, before doing that, if it is not a burned to everyone, of course. Thanks!
jmlanzaf, Again, I truly appreciate your comments relative to me wasting my time. I am NOT here this time around to make money for me, I am here to learn, learn, learn! You have NO idea how much I am aware that I am spending a LOT of non-paid time on this! I have indeed. How do I learn, if I do not put in the time an effort learning though? It seems with coins, as much as with Asian art, they key is education and time learning! I am not helping anyone in my opinion by just sending them in to a coin dealer and leaving them on their own with NO knowledge at all. I am NOT trying to be a super-star numismatist, I am trying to start with a learning process that clearly take a very long time, and in the end, can make comments to clients who ask me to "please help us" with out coin collection, which is why I am here in the first place, I just happened to have three people in a row as, so I said let me see what I can do! I WILL not submit anything to anyone until I know there is at lease a modicum of reason to so do, and that they will get a fair shake! That is my goal right now, to learn and be an initial funnel of protection. Too many people get ripped off on their art and antiques (and coins) for me to do anything less, experience has proven this. Thank you.
MasonG, I believe you are correct, likely not much more than $150.00, but time will tell, and I have learned a huge amount! It is not my time I am concerned about, it is my level of education, which I am building now.
davewesen, I can see both points of view are valid! Thanks.
cladking, Thank you again for your detailed comments. Notes well taken!
yspsales, Thanks for the photos! Are these coins you graded out of sets where you "won"? I agree with your comment about protecting the art for the future!
Thank you everyone, I am learning a lot, sincerely, Greg.
@browntrout said:
Hello, I am a neophyte to numismatics....
Welcome to the forum - Always great to have another neophyte around. As the others have said, most proofs are not worth grading. The value of modern proofs is fairly low, and they are all pretty nice. A "gem" PR65 is actually a pretty low grade for proofs, and generally speaking its PR70 or bust. The differences are so small b/w 69-70 that even those with excellent grading skills will struggle. If you want graded examples, it's almost always cheaper to buy them graded.
Hope you are enjoying this great hobby!
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
NeophyteNumismatist, Thank you for the welcome, and the comments! Like the name too! Like I have said, right now, this is a GREAT DEAL of learning! GCB.
Also, I joined and have submitted images and comments to the VAM website. They also asked for images, which I get. They have been kind and helpful too, GCB.
@browntrout said:
NeophyteNumismatist, Thank you for the welcome, and the comments! Like the name too! Like I have said, right now, this is a GREAT DEAL of learning! GCB.
You bet. The more I learn, the more I find there is to know. Knowledge is like a lightbulb. As you upgrade your bulb, you get a larger circle of light... but the circumference of darkness also expands.
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
NeophyteNumismatics, NO DOUBT! I have been working on Asian art, antiques and antiquities for nearly 25 years now, and I NEVER feel like I know anything! It has GOT TO BE the same with coins after going through this initial wicked learning curve, which is still about 85% in slope! The more we learn, the less we know! That is a good thing! Thank you again, Greg.
May I ask you jmlanzaf, can you please elaborate on your comment, "before sending them off to a wholesaler at 25% back of bid." Especially the 25% back of bid," thanks.
Greg,
One of the posters here publishes the Greysheet https://greysheet.com which most dealers and not a few collectors use to determine their buy prices. I haven't had reason to look at a new one for a while, but there used to be a page for mint sets, for example, that would have two columns labeled Bid and Ask and a row might say "1971 2.50 3.25" so in the example above the wholesaler would pay 25% less than the "bid" price, or $1.88 for a 1971 mint set.
Ten years ago in some dates, especially 1979 and 1980, that would often be less than face.
I haven't had reason to look at a new one for a while, but there used to be a page for mint sets, for example, that would have two columns labeled Bid and Ask and a row might say "1971 2.50 3.25" so in the example above the wholesaler would pay 25% less than the "bid" price, or $1.88 for a 1971 mint set.
Ten years ago in some dates, especially 1979 and 1980, that would often be less than face.
The '71 set is $4 now and it's pretty easy to get a premium for nice choice sets.
Frankly my guess is that bid would be significantly higher if all sets were pristine. Even most of the choice '71 sets are affected by tarnish. Bad sets are dark and often have no coins that are OK without soaking. Some sets are also picked over as well.
Bid and Ask were normally not too different and both reflected wholesale prices. Bid was how much dealers paid and Ask was how much they were willing to sell for in large quantities to other dealers. Bid would sometimes dip under face value but relatively few sets traded at this level because sellers would destroy them. The '80 set "traded" under face value so long it is now in as short of supply as much more desirable dates.
Sets have almost always been traded at bid. There have been short periods that finding buyers at bid was very difficult but usually you could get 100% or up to 110% when buyers were desperate. Local coin shops often paid 75% of bid meaning they'd sometimes paid as little as 70c on the dollar for money. Dealers still buy old postage for half of face value because it is hard to move. Now there are buyers for mint and I rarely have to take less than 90% of "bid".
This increase from $1.88 to $4.00 seems nominal to most people but the premium on the set has moved from 5c to $2.17
As much as 80% of some of these dates have been destroyed for many different reasons over the decades. A lot of what's left, especially in the early dates, are tarnished. There were never many Gems and there are even fewer today and some Gems, like '68 1c, are almost invariably ruined or tarnished (usually both). Nice Gem '71-S cents were hard to find in mint sets in 1971. They are not easier today but now even nice chBU are getting hard to find.
Thank you everyone, I am learning a lot, sincerely, Greg.
Proof and Mint sets are usually priced using the "Greysheet". Bulk lots are usually bought and sold at a percentage of Greysheet. 20 years ago it was 90%. 3 years ago it was 70%. These days it is more like 80% or 75%.
And despite what the aficionados will tell you, it is nearly impossible to be taken advantage of on sets from the 1970s up because they aren't tremendously valuable, especially the Mint sets. Other than the 1970 small date, they are mostly not much above face value until you get into the 2000s.
Do people make money by finding the rare gem coin in a set? Yes. But they make money because they are hard to find. It takes years or decades of experience. Along the way you will spend thousands getting $2 to $10 coins slabbed at the cost of $40 per coin.
I've been dealing coins for 25 years. 20 years ago, I played the game. I quickly realized it wasn't worth my time. Coins have thin margins. Where you spend time is critical.
Ask yourself what the market would be for a 1985 PF70DCAM coin - I'm guessing you can count on one shop teachers hand the number of people actively looking for one. It may be worth something slabbed, but if there is no one looking to buy then its lost money.
daltex, very interesting, thank you for enlightening me! Now I get the Greysheet! I had not looked into it yet.
cladking, Also very interesting and enlightening, thank you both! Greg.
I am not nearly as qualified as others here with respect to modern proof and mint sets, but I do have a suggestion that I believe you will find helpful for use on these forums.
When you are writing your comments, type an ‘@‘ sign before the username of the person you are calling out. For example @browntrout —see how it links automatically? This will tag and notify the person you are replying to, so they will be more likely to see the comment you have addressed to them.
Best of success with this learning experience and project.
@jmlanzaf Thanks for the comments. Again, I do hear you. I am putting my time in, that is one of the main points here. I am not going to suggest slabbing anything until I have my ducks reasonably in a row, I assure you.
@P0CKETCHANGE, got it! Thanks for explaining, I obviously did not know to use the "@" sign! Done!
Okay, if it is okay, I am going to change things up a bit now, as I take all of the photos of the coins I think MIGHT be good enough to send in to PCGS.... I am doing them in the order I have looked at them and made notes. I will first make a basic statement of what the coins are, and any possible observations, then I will put the photos in. Please let me know if the photos are good enough, and if not, how to try to adjust them, etc... I am unclear on how to get the "mirror/CAM/DCAM effect well in the images, as they do not show up so well in my images yet. If there better ones than others, as I am using different light sources, let me know, and I am happy to cut them down to only the fewest needed, and not over burden people/the forum. When I have found something I think is unusual, I have done my best to take 10X images with the set up I have right now. I will post each coin separately, so it is clear which is which. The following coins I have considered to be the best of about 600 coins + the mint/proof set coins I think might be worthwhile. If I should start another discussion, I am happy to do that too. Thanks, Greg.
In this case, I have left in the photo with only the table lamp, and also the light ring light for the obverse and reverse for now.
First is a 1964-D Kennedy Half, which has a die crack in it. I am very curious how people see the grading of this coin.
And despite what the aficionados will tell you, it is nearly impossible to be taken advantage of on sets from the 1970s up because they aren't tremendously valuable, especially the Mint sets. Other than the 1970 small date, they are mostly not much above face value until you get into the 2000s.
Actually you can be buried in proof and mint sets if you don't know what you're doing. It's best to pick through some else's sets and not worry about the quality of what you leave behind. But if you buy the sets at bid (it's almost always been difficult to get them for less) then you better not buy tarnished and corroded sets or you might take a bath with them. If they're also picked over then you're buried.
Bids have increased in the last year. The value of the coins in the sets barely exceeds bid now. For many years a set that bid at $5 would have about $7.50 worth of coins in it. Now that set bids at $8 and the coins wholesale at $9 but many of the coins in the sets are substandard and can not be wholesaled as a "chBU".
The markets have changed. Sets are getting a lot more attention because they are almost the sole source for most moderns. With few sets left all this attention is causing large changes in the market. I think we will see huge changes going forwards because there is enough demand to establish wholesale markets in every coin in mint ands proof sets. There are far fewer nice "retail friendly" coins than people imagine. Not only because there are so few sets and most are spoken for but because so many of the coins in the sets are tarnished or otherwise degraded and many were substandard when they left the mint.
It is very interesting to see the coins after photographing them, as a LOT things become visible, that I could not see before... I was going to posting this 1972-D Kennedy half, as it is worse that I thought once seeing it in the pictures! It looks much better under 5X and 30X, than this! Wow!
@cladking, I am ONLY looking through other peoples sets, not my own, and I am not interested in buying anything. This is to help them get grounded and me to learn. These clients found/bought all of these coins over their life times. I have seen some of the sets are indeed substandard, and was a bit surprised to learn that! Thanks, Greg.
@MFeld I just learned to add the "@" sign to show replies, and I thought I would included you in this latest last few posts from me. Happy to have your feedback, thank you.
@browntrout how do YOU see the grading of those coins? By me, they look like standard MS-64 mint set examples. Maybe 65. Maybe 63. In any case, they are so far from being worth grading that there's little point in quibbling about which exact number to assign.
Sorry!
I believe you when you say that these are the best that you have found. That doesn't mean that they are worth slabbing, only that the others are so much worse.
@jonathanb these are not mint/proof set coins, they are loose coins. I am going through the list I have weeded out from about 600 loose coins, and also a bunch of mint/proof sets. Thanks for your comment. In the photos I would grade lower than I did before the photos! It is really amazing how it changes my opinion! I learned to take images in different light with the Asian art, etc... that I work on, and some times every take them under ultraviolet and Infrared - it is amazing what I find and learn! I would now grade these lower than you I think, but I am the newbie here, and would trust your comments more than my own! Thank you, Greg.
@MasonG Thank you, interesting! This is that steep learning curve I am going through. The photos are really, really telling about grade! I might start then next time! But, if I had, I would not be learning so much this time! I do not like cutting corners.
@browntrout said: @MasonG Thank you, interesting! This is that steep learning curve I am going through. The photos are really, really telling about grade! I might start then next time! But, if I had, I would not be learning so much this time! I do not like cutting corners.
Nothing at all wrong with educating yourself, lots of people don't make nearly the effort you have.
@MasonG, thank you for the kind comment. I am trying! I am going to photograph all of the "picked" coins, and look at the images. Anything left after that, I will then submit here. I expect that to take a little while, as it is a slow process. But, what an education! You guys have all be very kind and very helpful, both with constructive criticism, and lesson! I am really grateful. I hope there are some more comments for the loose coin images I have already posted, as I am very curious! Greg.
I am going to put one more of these here for comments! It is a 1922 Peace Dollar, VAM-6 (I think - I will be posting it to the VAM site too to double check).
@browntrout said:
I am going to put one more of these here for comments! It is a 1922 Peace Dollar, VAM-6 (I think - I will be posting it to the VAM site too to double check).
Nothing special. Usual bulk silver dollar collection.
I have yet to see anything that shouldn't have simply been wholesaled from the beginning.
Unless you are planning on spending years studying so that you can do numismatic auctions, you could simply do what most estate or auction houses do: find a local, trusted coin dealer and let them do the work. I could have valued that entire collection in 30 minutes or less, as could most dealers.
I appreciate your enthusiasm. You have more enthusiasm than a lot of old-time collectors. I'm just struggling with the business case here.
@jmlanzaf Thanks. I am trying to learn enough to be able to say, "your collection may be worth going to such and such a dealer," or, "Auction," or, just go to Coinstar, etc.... And, have a modicum of a concept to direct them. I just happened to have had three clients in a row, all who had a lot of stuff, including coins, and because they trust me not to rip them off, asked me to help. So, I said yes, with the caveat that I was not a coin guy! They all understood, so I took it as an opportunity to learn. I find the fact that my neophyte grading goes WAY down after seeing the photographs! The business case is, learning, helping my clients, and protecting them as best as I can from the shysters that are everywhere in the art and antiques business, and from my minimal experience, that includes coin dealers too. So, I see there is nothing wrong with learning! Not much more to it than that. Thanks, Greg.
I appreciate your enthusiasm. You have more enthusiasm than a lot of old-time collectors. I'm just struggling with the business case here.
Business case is that learning about coins enables him to expand his client services. That's enough. Plus there is always the joy of learning which @browntrout has in abundance. I wish more new posters would come here with the attitude of how much they have to learn.
Comments
@browntrout do you have a Red Book?
Using the Red Book, could you post the listed values for a 1971 No S nickel in a) uncirculated and b) proof condition?
If you don't see where those values are listed, that's a problem.
Unless you have some specific silver eagles or modern commemoratives in that 1963- 2018 group, I would say don't do it.
I am not sure of your age or time to learn new stuff, but I imagine keeping current with Asian modern art; Asian art, antiques and antiquities; Western fine art; fossils; ethnographic items, among other things takes a good chunk of time.
I also do not know where you live, but guess there are already some good numismatists within a couple hours drive.
Your clients that have presented or asked about their coins, do they currently collect? Maybe they could join and submit.
Most of the sets you described are available for less than $30, some less than $5.
MasonG, thank you! That makes a lot more sense (and unfortunately less cents!), as the 1972-S also does not have an S on it! So, I was just researching again, and thought, "I have to be missing something!" Damn! Well, at least I knew to look, despite being wrong! Life is life. It also makes a lot more sense as I was grading as MS, not PR for all of these OGP sets, and only the 1971-S No So was a proof in that case! Thank you, Greg.
Thanks everyone!
My comments on replies...
jonathanb, Interesting lesson about the red book! Thank you, I believe I get it!
davewesen, Thanks! I get why not to do it! Lots, and lots of my time into reviewing all of these coins and the mint/proof sets already! Plus, the needs to learn, and learn, and learn, and.... I was 18 years old yesterday, today I am 58, going on 100! Yes, I essentially put in endless time learning about the areas I specialize in, and thus my understanding and respect of the numismatists expertise! I have several numismatists/coin dealers I have found closer to me, just no PCGS people near by. My clients are not serious collectors, I think that has been proven by the collection quality. And, they do not seem to have collected anything other than these Mint/proof sets since 2018. I appreciate your input, as it is clear most of these sets are not worth much. But, it was a very good lesson all in all.
Sincerely, Greg.
Greg, please, please, please don't do anything (financial) until you are 100% sure of the difference between MS and PR. You likely have a high percentage of PR 69 and a few PR 70 coins in the proper sets. I'd be astonished if you had any MS 69 coins and can say with some authority that you don't have any MS 70 coins. Even an MS 68 is likely to be worth more than a PR 70 for the dates you're looking at.
Edit: if you have a soft package that has one of these
or a rigid package then you have a proof set with coins graded on the PF scale. Otherwise you have coins graded on the MS scale. 1965, '66, and '67 are exceptions as they are neither fish nor fowl.
Not unlike the layman seeking your specialty, you might be better off identifying the key dealers/players in each series.
No different than validating an unsigned artwork using brush strokes to help confirm the probable artist.
There are even nuances in each series.
Each mint suffered or benefited from quality control.
Even the modern minting process is always changing.
The only way to win is a volume approach... fantasy football, golf, and coins.
You got to make the effort to handle alot of coins.
Proof, mint sets, and even statehood quarter rolls can be very lucrative. It is the red head step child of numismatics.
An expert in Buffalo nickels might be a mere student of Peace Dollars.
You probably wont live long enough to master two or more series.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Thanks everyone,
Comments:
daltex, Thank you for that information! I know I MUST be careful before sending anything in, in greatest part, as it will not be my money being spent on the grading! Thus, why I am trying my best to be as careful and as "accurate" as possible! I have seen that "token" but not in their sets. The tokens in the other sets are plastic and different, so MS.
yspsales, Thank you! I really do get my level as a neophyte. I do have two coin dealers with "decent" reputations I have tracked down, and I will bring in all of the coins that I have weeded out that might have any potential for their opinions. I just finished getting through all of the mint' proof sets yesterday finally - finding a wrong coin, thinking it was the right one by the way, as you know from this thread. Happy to be corrected and to learn. I am not expecting to become a numismatics expert, but I should have enough ability to say to clients, "We may want to look into this more deeply," versus skipping over things simply becuase I have NO idea. Now I have some clue about how to be careful, and things to look for. I call this being "dangerous, but ignorant!" Thus, why I need someone better than me by a LOT to take a look before I recommend to my clients which coins to consider for grading, if any! I say that for a completely neophyte, handling about 800 - 900 total coins at this point has not only been a trial by fire, but for me a large volume. On the first coin, it took me about 1 hour just to figure out how to research it, then how to consider grade at all, etc... I have this time way down now, which helps, but does not make me confident in my opinions! You numismatists are HIGHLY specialized, HIGHLY detail oriented, and that is very clear - and now I understand why after seeing how prices suddenly jump up.
My client does have two unopened rolls of 2005-D and 2005-P Kansas state quarters, and two unopened rolls of the Washington State D and P quarrelers. I will be asking them if I can open at the rooms to check for superior versions, as generally they are not worth much in the condition of the end coins. That is my last task before going in to see the dealers, and then give them a final list for suggested grading. I bet I have spent at least 100, if not 200 hours on these three collections. Unpaid by the way! I will only get paid if I sell the collections, so I have a vested interest in getting things right, not biased!
Thanks, Greg.
After you've been at this a while you don't need any time at all because you can smell Gems from half a city away.
@browntrout based on the number of coins you described, you should have found at most a handful of coins worth getting slabbed. If you think you have more than that, you might consider very carefully about how much money you are willing to lose.
You should expect to get slabbed grades that are 2-5 points lower than whatever you think you'll get. You'll most likely lose money on every single coin you send in, so better to lose on a handful than to lose on dozens or hundreds.
Again: Do you have a Red Book? Do you see the listed values for each set that you have? Could you quote one of those prices here so that somebody can confirm that you are looking at the right things?
While it is possible to find sets that are worth more than the listed prices, it is also very unusual to do so. And even more unusual when looking at the small numbers of sets that you've described.
Again: Do you know how much it will cost to get each coin slabbed? Can you quote an estimate of the cost? As a hint, in many cases the cost of slabbing a single coin will exceed the value of an entire set -- sometimes by 5x or more.
Before you make an expensive mistake, could you maybe post pictures of the single piece that you think is most worthwhile to get slabbed, and see if anyone agrees with that?
So, let me ask about the VAM/Van Allen-Mallis, die mark studying thing with Morgans and Peace Dollars. I looked into this a while back while looking at a few of my friends Morgans and Peace Dollars. It was very interesting, and made a lot of sense to me. Is this something I should also pursue while at this deep learning curve with the many Morgan and Peace Dollars in two of these three collections? It makes a LOT of sense to me, as it must be VERY hard to fake those marks with any accuracy at all at this time, though it will be in the future with 3-D scanning, etc...
Thanks cladking! There is no question I am faster, but know I am an infant, Greg.
And even more unusual than that for someone with minimal experience grading coins.
Just sayin'.
Kindly, you are wasting your time and losing money on the midern proof and mint sets. 99% of them have nothing remotely special in them. I'm a part time dealer for 25 years and I rarely look beyond the presence of the coins before sending them off to a wholesaler at 25% back of bid. Most dealers do the same Everly for a look at the 1970 small date large date and the 1979/1981 Type 1/2.
Being even more honest, some of those mint sets are worth more in the coinstar than being sold.
Silver dollars are a more profitable area. But, again beyond honest, 99% of the Morgan or Peace dollars that come through are going to be nothing special. Anyone with a better collection and any experience is going to go to one of the established auction houses. But with time, you could carve a niche. But again, kindly, a bunch of silver dollars that came in with a bunch of proof and mint sets are going to be 99% common date coins best sold as bulk.
VAMs are as easily counterfeited as any other coin using transfer dies.
Something to be aware of when looking for VAMs (or varieties in general) is that except for a small number of the most popular ones, most collectors looking for them are looking to cherrypick them rather than pay a premium for one that has already been identified. One of the local dealers told me he'll have buyers come in and want to look through proof/mint sets for cameos or varieties while ignoring the ones that are already displayed and available for purchase in his case.
Welcome. I haven’t read the whole thread.
There are exceedingly few people who can tell the difference between a PR69 vs PR70 coin. Kindly, you won’t be one of them and you’re better off playing the lottery. Save your time and money.
You're leaving a lot of money on the table for the last year.
Nice sets are easily wholesaled now days between 90 and 125% of bid and bid is sharply higher. If you have bad sets they will be more difficult to sell and 75 to 90% is about the best you can do.
This was true up until a year ago. Ironically the best two dates ('68 and '69) you might do best selling the half dollar and spending the rest. These markets have always been "funny".
Ikes are smoking hot right now and every mint set Ike is worth at least $3.50 wholesale providing they are chBU. Trying buying a few of these that are attractive and lustrous and see what they cost!!!
In "900" mint set coins there isn't a high probability of having o9ne worth grading but the odds aren't that poor. I used to figure there was always something in only 300 mint set coins. But, the market only appreciates the best one of about 10 of these today (3000 coins).
I believe the "fault" lies in the market, not the mint sets. By the time this fault is corrected there will be no more mint sets available at anything approaching current pricing. We are running out of mint sets even before most collections have even begun. Where are people going to get nice choice '76 type I Ikes with only a handful coming to market each year? These coins are mostly gone now because so many have been put into circulation by collectors and dealers and the few left are not going to come onto the market any faster even if prices increase many fold. Most sets are lost in the back of the public's closet or held in strong hands. WYSIWYG and you just don't see many desirable mint set coins or many mint sets any longer.
There was a time every dealer had stacks and stacks and every day more walked into the shop. They didn't sell very well then and now that most are gone they still don't sell well. But people still want some of these moderns so the price of the mint sets is up sharply. I don't know how this can change. even macroeconomic conditions would have relatively little effect on such a tiny market that is growing in leaps and bounds.
Mint Sets/Proof sets: love it as a hobby.
I inherited a bunch of mint sets and coins, I learned the hard way that even when a coin looks really really good,
odds are ‘really good’ isn’t enough for coins 1960+.
I graded a lot of coins that I know now I probably shouldn’t have graded, I don’t mind because I see it as part of my education,
but if you’re looking at coins for profit, probably not advisable to grade mint/proof set coins.
I agree with the advice to take the mint sets to a coin dealer for a review, or you could post some close photos here and we can look (just make sure photos are close and in focus, the new iPhone camera works great).
It’s hard to see the beauty of a coin in photos, but photos would give a general idea ‘check that one out’ or not —
I graded a number of coins, and I got lucky with a couple of the coins, but it’s been more of an learning adventure and discovery of the beauty of coins than a for-profit enterprise 😍.
From a profit point of view? You probably don’t have anything worth grading, but only someone experienced with coins can tell you for sure ❤️
Disagree. Check face value against 75% of Grey.
And, if you ignore your time, you could make money sorting sets, slabbing a few coins, retailing a few sets. Very few dealers bother. Why do you think that is? Because they hate money?
And those are coin dealers, not art dealers. He's already spent more time on those sets than they are worth.
I think so too. Based on what I remember has been posted (don't want to go back and re-read the whole thread so I could be wrong), I'd be surprised if there was more than $150 or so in value in the sets.
I have a difficult time determining much of anything through the mylar on the mint sets. If I take them all out, I don't have much more value than face.
Seeing through the plastic does involve a lot of learning. And similarly to learning how to grade from pictures you'll be wrong sometimes. No matter how sure I am that a coin in a mint set has nice pleasing surfaces it might have bad surfaces when removed. While large scratches and planchet problems can always be seen by moving the coin in the holder there can be extensive small scratches that you don't see. Luster also can change a little when removed.
One of the most important things when grading and even more important when looking at coins in mint set plastic is to use a strong incandescent light. Put the light beyond the mint set and above. It is very important with clad to move the coin at various angles to the light source. Most metals show scratches fairly readily at any angle but scratches on clads mostly disappear at steeper angles.
It really goes pretty fast with experience because Gem just right out and because you just learn to twist the sets as you move them. Once in a while you'll have to move a coin in the plastic or take a closer look. You probably can miss a few if you try to go too fast, though.
I always try to have a low power glass to scan for varieties and an 18X loupe for confirmation.
For checking some mint sets it's easier to take them out of the packaging and looking through ten or fifteen of the red or blue packets at a time especially if one of every denomination needs the glass. Back before I knew what each coin looked like this was necessary to have other coins to immediately compare to. If I didn't do this I'd select the quarter in "every" 1972 mint set. If you're checking someone else's sets then getting them back in the envelopes and being sure every reject is a good mint set is easier. Most dealers will let you mix and match which also saves you having to buy large numbers. There are still a lot of really nice mint sets out there because every cherry set and every Gem is not destroyed. These sets have been set aside by collectors for many years and sometimes they picked over sets. It was also very common practice to buy five sets and sell four of them at a nice profit. Most real collectors made some attempt to save the nicest one. I've even run into small quantities of such sets.
there are a lot fewer heavily picked over sets out there than people might think but they did start showing up back in the mid-'90's. Sure some varieties, and PL's are very unlikely to be seen now days but most individuals simply won't bother with an MS-67 dime so will pass right over it. Everybody misses stuff. It wasn't unusual to find a '70-S sm dt in sets cut up for the half dollar and he sm dt. And all the varieties and Gems were usually ignored.
The problem now days is finding the sets because for the last 50 years they have been getting destroyed thousands at a time because nobody wanted them. I'd hardly be surprised if there are more shop worn sets out there now days with damaged, brittle, discolored, and scratched up plastic. In the old days good clean envelopes represented 95% of mint sets and only about 2% were shop worn. Even the most abused mint sets you can usually get a very good idea what's in them even though you can guess before you slide any around. And you might feel the need to wash your hands after touching them.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Thought this thread needed some pictures.
Not alot of money on the buy or sell.
We are custodians for future collectors.
Why let the art work of 50+ years go to the Coinstar?
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Wow! Again! Thanks!
MasonG, Got it! Yes, I know I have very limited experience, just trying to do the best I can for these people.
jmlanzaf, I understand completely, thank you for your warning. I am NOT trying to make money on this process, I AM, 1) trying to make sure my client does not get ripped off, and 2) trying to learn so I can at least be what I refer to as "dangerous enough" to recognize when something should be looked at again at someone home, and then taken in to a professional, let alone get graded.
May I ask you jmlanzaf, can you please elaborate on your comment, "before sending them off to a wholesaler at 25% back of bid." Especially the 25% back of bid," thanks. This is some of the advice I am trying to learn for the client, while I learn more about numismatics. How to send them (or me) to the right places for the right coins. Heritage/DL for special coins, dealers/wholesalers for unimportant coins, garbage at Coinstar, etc... I would love some direction on that!
The Morgan and Peace Dollars, I got it - basically the same as the Mint/Proof sets, rare to find anything - but, that is the fun in the search, ins't it? Also, it has been huge in teaching me about various coins, grading, how to look at them, VAMs, and everything else. I also find it interesting that VAMs can be counterfeited so easily already! However, in working with Chinese art and antiques, I am not surprised in the end. They are some of the best in the world (and worst), in making forgeries! Thanks.
MasonG, yes, I see that cherry picking is a big part of numismatics! I am not surprised at your comments!
Catbert, thank you for the advice and warning. Part of my goal in this process is to learn, learn, learn, and that is happening in spades with this work. They also have about 600 loose coins too, and I have examined every single one of them!
cladking, Interesting comments! Thank you.
Davidcoins, thank you for your comments, and advice. I am understanding all of this from everyones comments and advice. My goal this week is to get all of the photos of "possible" good items, and then to see two dealers for opinions. I would be happy to submit them here, before doing that, if it is not a burned to everyone, of course. Thanks!
jmlanzaf, Again, I truly appreciate your comments relative to me wasting my time. I am NOT here this time around to make money for me, I am here to learn, learn, learn! You have NO idea how much I am aware that I am spending a LOT of non-paid time on this! I have indeed. How do I learn, if I do not put in the time an effort learning though? It seems with coins, as much as with Asian art, they key is education and time learning! I am not helping anyone in my opinion by just sending them in to a coin dealer and leaving them on their own with NO knowledge at all. I am NOT trying to be a super-star numismatist, I am trying to start with a learning process that clearly take a very long time, and in the end, can make comments to clients who ask me to "please help us" with out coin collection, which is why I am here in the first place, I just happened to have three people in a row as, so I said let me see what I can do! I WILL not submit anything to anyone until I know there is at lease a modicum of reason to so do, and that they will get a fair shake! That is my goal right now, to learn and be an initial funnel of protection. Too many people get ripped off on their art and antiques (and coins) for me to do anything less, experience has proven this. Thank you.
MasonG, I believe you are correct, likely not much more than $150.00, but time will tell, and I have learned a huge amount! It is not my time I am concerned about, it is my level of education, which I am building now.
davewesen, I can see both points of view are valid! Thanks.
cladking, Thank you again for your detailed comments. Notes well taken!
yspsales, Thanks for the photos! Are these coins you graded out of sets where you "won"? I agree with your comment about protecting the art for the future!
Thank you everyone, I am learning a lot, sincerely, Greg.
Welcome to the forum - Always great to have another neophyte around. As the others have said, most proofs are not worth grading. The value of modern proofs is fairly low, and they are all pretty nice. A "gem" PR65 is actually a pretty low grade for proofs, and generally speaking its PR70 or bust. The differences are so small b/w 69-70 that even those with excellent grading skills will struggle. If you want graded examples, it's almost always cheaper to buy them graded.
Hope you are enjoying this great hobby!
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
NeophyteNumismatist, Thank you for the welcome, and the comments! Like the name too! Like I have said, right now, this is a GREAT DEAL of learning! GCB.
Also, I joined and have submitted images and comments to the VAM website. They also asked for images, which I get. They have been kind and helpful too, GCB.
You bet. The more I learn, the more I find there is to know. Knowledge is like a lightbulb. As you upgrade your bulb, you get a larger circle of light... but the circumference of darkness also expands.
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
NeophyteNumismatics, NO DOUBT! I have been working on Asian art, antiques and antiquities for nearly 25 years now, and I NEVER feel like I know anything! It has GOT TO BE the same with coins after going through this initial wicked learning curve, which is still about 85% in slope! The more we learn, the less we know! That is a good thing! Thank you again, Greg.
Greg,
One of the posters here publishes the Greysheet https://greysheet.com which most dealers and not a few collectors use to determine their buy prices. I haven't had reason to look at a new one for a while, but there used to be a page for mint sets, for example, that would have two columns labeled Bid and Ask and a row might say "1971 2.50 3.25" so in the example above the wholesaler would pay 25% less than the "bid" price, or $1.88 for a 1971 mint set.
Ten years ago in some dates, especially 1979 and 1980, that would often be less than face.
The '71 set is $4 now and it's pretty easy to get a premium for nice choice sets.
Frankly my guess is that bid would be significantly higher if all sets were pristine. Even most of the choice '71 sets are affected by tarnish. Bad sets are dark and often have no coins that are OK without soaking. Some sets are also picked over as well.
Bid and Ask were normally not too different and both reflected wholesale prices. Bid was how much dealers paid and Ask was how much they were willing to sell for in large quantities to other dealers. Bid would sometimes dip under face value but relatively few sets traded at this level because sellers would destroy them. The '80 set "traded" under face value so long it is now in as short of supply as much more desirable dates.
Sets have almost always been traded at bid. There have been short periods that finding buyers at bid was very difficult but usually you could get 100% or up to 110% when buyers were desperate. Local coin shops often paid 75% of bid meaning they'd sometimes paid as little as 70c on the dollar for money. Dealers still buy old postage for half of face value because it is hard to move. Now there are buyers for mint and I rarely have to take less than 90% of "bid".
This increase from $1.88 to $4.00 seems nominal to most people but the premium on the set has moved from 5c to $2.17
As much as 80% of some of these dates have been destroyed for many different reasons over the decades. A lot of what's left, especially in the early dates, are tarnished. There were never many Gems and there are even fewer today and some Gems, like '68 1c, are almost invariably ruined or tarnished (usually both). Nice Gem '71-S cents were hard to find in mint sets in 1971. They are not easier today but now even nice chBU are getting hard to find.
daltex, very interesting, thank you for enlightening me! Now I get the Greysheet! I had not looked into it yet.
cladking, Also very interesting and enlightening, thank you both! Greg.
Proof and Mint sets are usually priced using the "Greysheet". Bulk lots are usually bought and sold at a percentage of Greysheet. 20 years ago it was 90%. 3 years ago it was 70%. These days it is more like 80% or 75%.
And despite what the aficionados will tell you, it is nearly impossible to be taken advantage of on sets from the 1970s up because they aren't tremendously valuable, especially the Mint sets. Other than the 1970 small date, they are mostly not much above face value until you get into the 2000s.
Do people make money by finding the rare gem coin in a set? Yes. But they make money because they are hard to find. It takes years or decades of experience. Along the way you will spend thousands getting $2 to $10 coins slabbed at the cost of $40 per coin.
I've been dealing coins for 25 years. 20 years ago, I played the game. I quickly realized it wasn't worth my time. Coins have thin margins. Where you spend time is critical.
Ask yourself what the market would be for a 1985 PF70DCAM coin - I'm guessing you can count on one shop teachers hand the number of people actively looking for one. It may be worth something slabbed, but if there is no one looking to buy then its lost money.
I am not nearly as qualified as others here with respect to modern proof and mint sets, but I do have a suggestion that I believe you will find helpful for use on these forums.
When you are writing your comments, type an ‘@‘ sign before the username of the person you are calling out. For example @browntrout —see how it links automatically? This will tag and notify the person you are replying to, so they will be more likely to see the comment you have addressed to them.
Best of success with this learning experience and project.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
@jmlanzaf Thanks for the comments. Again, I do hear you. I am putting my time in, that is one of the main points here. I am not going to suggest slabbing anything until I have my ducks reasonably in a row, I assure you.
@3stars Thank you. Makes perfect sense!
@P0CKETCHANGE, got it! Thanks for explaining, I obviously did not know to use the "@" sign! Done!
Okay, if it is okay, I am going to change things up a bit now, as I take all of the photos of the coins I think MIGHT be good enough to send in to PCGS.... I am doing them in the order I have looked at them and made notes. I will first make a basic statement of what the coins are, and any possible observations, then I will put the photos in. Please let me know if the photos are good enough, and if not, how to try to adjust them, etc... I am unclear on how to get the "mirror/CAM/DCAM effect well in the images, as they do not show up so well in my images yet. If there better ones than others, as I am using different light sources, let me know, and I am happy to cut them down to only the fewest needed, and not over burden people/the forum. When I have found something I think is unusual, I have done my best to take 10X images with the set up I have right now. I will post each coin separately, so it is clear which is which. The following coins I have considered to be the best of about 600 coins + the mint/proof set coins I think might be worthwhile. If I should start another discussion, I am happy to do that too. Thanks, Greg.
First is a 1964-D Kennedy Half, which has a die crack in it. I am very curious how people see the grading of this coin.
Actually you can be buried in proof and mint sets if you don't know what you're doing. It's best to pick through some else's sets and not worry about the quality of what you leave behind. But if you buy the sets at bid (it's almost always been difficult to get them for less) then you better not buy tarnished and corroded sets or you might take a bath with them. If they're also picked over then you're buried.
Bids have increased in the last year. The value of the coins in the sets barely exceeds bid now. For many years a set that bid at $5 would have about $7.50 worth of coins in it. Now that set bids at $8 and the coins wholesale at $9 but many of the coins in the sets are substandard and can not be wholesaled as a "chBU".
The markets have changed. Sets are getting a lot more attention because they are almost the sole source for most moderns. With few sets left all this attention is causing large changes in the market. I think we will see huge changes going forwards because there is enough demand to establish wholesale markets in every coin in mint ands proof sets. There are far fewer nice "retail friendly" coins than people imagine. Not only because there are so few sets and most are spoken for but because so many of the coins in the sets are tarnished or otherwise degraded and many were substandard when they left the mint.
It is very interesting to see the coins after photographing them, as a LOT things become visible, that I could not see before... I was going to posting this 1972-D Kennedy half, as it is worse that I thought once seeing it in the pictures! It looks much better under 5X and 30X, than this! Wow!
@cladking, I am ONLY looking through other peoples sets, not my own, and I am not interested in buying anything. This is to help them get grounded and me to learn. These clients found/bought all of these coins over their life times. I have seen some of the sets are indeed substandard, and was a bit surprised to learn that! Thanks, Greg.
@MFeld I just learned to add the "@" sign to show replies, and I thought I would included you in this latest last few posts from me. Happy to have your feedback, thank you.
@browntrout how do YOU see the grading of those coins? By me, they look like standard MS-64 mint set examples. Maybe 65. Maybe 63. In any case, they are so far from being worth grading that there's little point in quibbling about which exact number to assign.
Sorry!
I believe you when you say that these are the best that you have found. That doesn't mean that they are worth slabbing, only that the others are so much worse.
1971-D Ike Dollar, with "Peg Leg 'R'"
@jonathanb these are not mint/proof set coins, they are loose coins. I am going through the list I have weeded out from about 600 loose coins, and also a bunch of mint/proof sets. Thanks for your comment. In the photos I would grade lower than I did before the photos! It is really amazing how it changes my opinion! I learned to take images in different light with the Asian art, etc... that I work on, and some times every take them under ultraviolet and Infrared - it is amazing what I find and learn! I would now grade these lower than you I think, but I am the newbie here, and would trust your comments more than my own! Thank you, Greg.
Recent eBay sales:
PCGS MS64: $16.50 (6 bids)
PCGS MS65: $20.50 (6 bids)
That's less than the cost to grade. Some have sold for more, but not a lot. You can buy a raw example for $14.95 (free shipping) right now.
FWIW...
@MasonG Thank you, interesting! This is that steep learning curve I am going through. The photos are really, really telling about grade! I might start then next time! But, if I had, I would not be learning so much this time! I do not like cutting corners.
Nothing at all wrong with educating yourself, lots of people don't make nearly the effort you have.
@MasonG, thank you for the kind comment. I am trying! I am going to photograph all of the "picked" coins, and look at the images. Anything left after that, I will then submit here. I expect that to take a little while, as it is a slow process. But, what an education! You guys have all be very kind and very helpful, both with constructive criticism, and lesson! I am really grateful. I hope there are some more comments for the loose coin images I have already posted, as I am very curious! Greg.
I am going to put one more of these here for comments! It is a 1922 Peace Dollar, VAM-6 (I think - I will be posting it to the VAM site too to double check).
Nothing special. Usual bulk silver dollar collection.
I have yet to see anything that shouldn't have simply been wholesaled from the beginning.
Unless you are planning on spending years studying so that you can do numismatic auctions, you could simply do what most estate or auction houses do: find a local, trusted coin dealer and let them do the work. I could have valued that entire collection in 30 minutes or less, as could most dealers.
I appreciate your enthusiasm. You have more enthusiasm than a lot of old-time collectors. I'm just struggling with the business case here.
@jmlanzaf Thanks. I am trying to learn enough to be able to say, "your collection may be worth going to such and such a dealer," or, "Auction," or, just go to Coinstar, etc.... And, have a modicum of a concept to direct them. I just happened to have had three clients in a row, all who had a lot of stuff, including coins, and because they trust me not to rip them off, asked me to help. So, I said yes, with the caveat that I was not a coin guy! They all understood, so I took it as an opportunity to learn. I find the fact that my neophyte grading goes WAY down after seeing the photographs! The business case is, learning, helping my clients, and protecting them as best as I can from the shysters that are everywhere in the art and antiques business, and from my minimal experience, that includes coin dealers too. So, I see there is nothing wrong with learning! Not much more to it than that. Thanks, Greg.
Business case is that learning about coins enables him to expand his client services. That's enough. Plus there is always the joy of learning which @browntrout has in abundance. I wish more new posters would come here with the attitude of how much they have to learn.