Selling old black holder NGC coins to forum members......my experiences.
Luxor
Posts: 486 ✭✭✭✭✭
Going back quite a few years on the PCGS forums I've sold a total of 5 old black holder NGC coins to various forum members (1 coin to one guy, and 2 each to two others) with the condition and gentleman's verbal agreement at the time of sale that should they ever decide to sell the coins anytime down the road that they would let me know and give me first shot to buy them back. In each case the three various forum members all agreed and said that was fair and I took them all at their word, These coins were all sold back when the old black holders still brought a premium but of course nowhere near the absurd money they bring today when rarely offered.
So here's what has happened since and my experience with taking people at their word...... forum member #1 that bought 1 coin didn't last very long and flipped his for a profit without giving me first shot as we agreed, and when I called him on it he apologized. Forum member #2 that bought 2 coins lasted a few years and then I saw both coins in Heritage auctions. I also called him on it and he never responded to me and some time afterwards he stopped posting here. Forum member #3 who also bought 2 coins lasted the longest and I've only just recently also saw 1 of the coins listed at auction, although I have no way of knowing who consigned it and if was the same person here who bought it from me or if it's traded hands since.
I would also mention these are / were all highly regarded long time forum members who I thought would honor their word at the time. So the moral of this story is.......well, you can decide that for yourself. I still have a couple more old black holder coins that I purchased from a local dealer when they traded for no premium, but will not offer them for sale privately anytime soon. Also, I sold the coins on the old forums when my forum name was dragon and then later quit the forums after a private email dispute with the then president of PCGS over a submission and later rejoined with my current name after he left PCGS.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
Comments
While I respect and understand your gentleman’s agreement, unless it was written (and even that might unenforceable). Once you sell an item, it’s no longer yours and what the owner does with it, is really no longer your business.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
Since you mentioned changing names and the sales being on the older forums, did the people have your contact info? It might not be easy to figure out you were the same person given the new name.
And if they did have the info, I can see you being upset. However, agreements like you mentioned aren’t always easy to remember. Some people don’t keep notes and could forget who they even got the coin from (less likely for the person who quickly flipped the coin but more likely for the one that just recently sold their example).
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About 1-1/2 years ago I ate $1,000 to keep my word. I'm sorry to say that without a written contract some people wouldn't eat the cost of shipping to keep theirs.
Just my humble opinion.
Donato
Donato's Complete US Type Set ---- Donato's Dansco 7070 Modified Type Set ---- Donato's Basic U.S. Coin Design Set
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I certainly can understand your feelings, honor and integrity seen to be in short supply for some these days. And I will also say that U1 makes a good point, if those members lost your contact info or it changed that could have been a factor.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
If you say you'll do something, you should do it.
Welcome back! I remember you quite well and am happy to know you have not disappeared into the mists of time.
As for the transactions, well, people are people and they can disappoint at any time.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
It wouldn't be hard to start a thread asking "Anybody know how to contact XXXXXX?"
Say someone purchased a black-label walker from you years ago for $500-$1,000. It might be hard for them to contact you back, with their asking price of 10k.
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I don't know- seems easy enough.
"I'm selling the black label coin I bought from you, price is $10k. Get back to me if you're interested."
Not hard.
That wouldn't be hard if you have some recording of the name. If you just had your messages from an older forum and they disappeared, it would not be as easy.
Since the OP says he contacted two of the buyers, it's likely he also has the name of the third.
The OP has their names but do they have his name/contact info? By the time he contacted them, the coins were already sold or selling in an auction.
I don't know.
If you bought something with an agreement to give the seller the first chance to buy it back, wouldn't you keep their contact info? I would.
Going back to my first post on this thread, if you say you'll do something, you should do it.
This might also be part of the issue. Yes it is easy enough to offer it back and say you want 10k but it could lead to a more combative situation (with the original seller being unhappy that the price is now so high).
You would; someone else might not. Or they kept the info in their inbox on the old forum and it didn't carry over.
The OP:
"These coins were all sold back when the old black holders still brought a premium but of course nowhere near the absurd money they bring today when rarely offered."
It sure doesn't sound like he'd be surprised by the asking price.
It's possible his dog ate it, too.
Right?
We know that from this post. A person selling a coin back to him had no way of knowing that. From my experiences, when offering a coin back to someone quite a few get offended that the price is "too high"
If you say you'll do something, you should do it.
You should and it’s unfortunate that it didn’t happen. However it happens and the example in this thread is much less serious than many that we have encountered over the years. Hopefully the next person the op makes an agreement with keeps their word.
And on the bright side for the op, paying 10-14k for an NGC black holder today could easily be a burial. Consider selling some more of yours at auction to take advantage of this hot slab market.
Ok we get your point. Thanks.
And we get yours. You're welcome.
Welcome back Howard, I still have that super nice 81cc PL you sold me back in 2003. Nice coin, I tried to upgrade it once and didn’t happen, but this was before “+” grading, so maybe I’ll try again.
that is unfortunate to read and i have enjoyed the few times i read about other members having the same verbal agreement as PART of a sale and i'm willing to bet that if that part of the agreement was not agreed upon up front, a sale would possibly not have transpired here and in other instances.
probably not a bad idea in situations like this to emphasize the ONLY reason a sale is being entertained is BECAUSE a verbal agreement of at least re-offering the item(s) back to the original seller is being agreed to.
seems simple to me.
if you or anyone does that in the future, may not be a bad idea to include a little post-it as a reminder as time can take its toll and for one reason or another one may forget about such a stipulation at a given time.
the fact you did get some apologies does count for a little.
since you state you did see them for sale, did you ante up and go after them at least?
also, i have seen threads over the years here from people asking how to get in touch with X so that really isn't a decent excuse, imo.
Considering their popularity and extreme rarity, it's doubtful they'll drop in price any time soon.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The buyer of your black NGC slab could have offered it back to you at a high premium over current retail prices. You would of course have declined his ask price but he would have fulfilled his promise to give you first shot at buying it back. He could have then put it in a major auction and you would of course have had an opportunity to bid on it. Unless there is a written agreement to buy it back at a specific price, this agreement is not workable. Of course, it's impossible to know what this slab would be worth at some future date.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
My dealings in this hobby have shown me there are less people that act like gentlemen then ones that do. Sorry to hear none of the 3 you worked with could hold a promise. Verbal shouldn’t matter.
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CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
You are only as good as your word.
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A right of first refusal would have worked well in this case - i.e. you would specifically have the right to match a bonafide offer. You could spell this out on paper in a few simple sentences that include your permanent contact information and a copy for the buyer to sign and return.
While verbal commitments should be ethically and legally honored, they often are not and it can be hard to prove or remember what the original terms were many years later.
I’m sorry this happened to you!
I think you should name some names so they have the opportunity to defend themselves or just delete the post altogether. Nothing will be gained by this thread that turns out good.
I would never agree to a sale like that as a buyer, you never know what the future will bring, market change, etc. As a seller, When its sold its sold. Whatever the person does with it after I sold it, its their business. Now, I agree that since they said they would honor, its a bit unethical.
Sometimes I offer a coin to a customer, and if its one I like, I often say, if you ever decide to sell it, let me know, sometimes they do, sometimes they dont. But I never expect to see it again in all honesty.
Admittedly, I am old fashioned - comes with old age - and feel verbal agreements are binding. That being said, in today's world, honor is seemingly at a premium. Sorry to hear of your experience @Luxor... I do recall you under your previous forum name. Welcome back. Cheers, RickO
@luxor
Would you have purchased it back at the new asking price?
BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.
I am one to honor verbal agreements as I identify myself in the old school category.
I have experience myself on the buyer and seller side of these transactions. I can see both sides.
I have had zero success personally with being given first shot on such coins, but I have some understanding of why. Not that I necessarily agree.
That said, I no longer put any weight into these agreements. I've gotten the sad stories from dealers and collectors wanting some of my coins and promising them a good home in their collection and being offered them back.....to see them immediately flipped. When there is money to be made, honor and integrity can easily be forgotten. I have adjusted my expectations accordingly.
Thoughts:
-Often times the "offer it to me first" can be a half-hearted gesture.
-Sellers may feel the new pricing is so high that they don't want to offer at the new price to seem offensive and open up for a confrontation with the original seller.
-I myself have offered coins back and agitated the original sellers because they thought I was unfair based on what they sold it to me for.
Personal examples: 1.) I offer and the original seller politely passes 2.) I offer and the original seller is bothered by the new price and makes me feel guilty 3.) I give in to the guilt trip and sell back at original purchase price or close to have the buyer flip for a large profit. 4.) I offer back and original seller agrees (rare).-The culture and business culture is different today. There are many venues to independently sell and and interpersonal trust seems to be diminishing. Ex: Buyer states they cannot offer more than X, then Buyer lists coin at 40% over X and sells quickly. It is a lot easier for sellers to self represent and take a larger portion of the pie. I see a lot more consignment now due to this.
My opinion is when you sell an item there aren’t any strings attached unless written.
Personally, when I buy a coin there has to be no strings attached. Not that I wouldn’t honor a verbal agreement—but I just don’t want the hassle.
The seller at time of sale should be getting FMV for the item. The only reason to want to have a “right of first refusal” type agreement is they may want to be able to buy something back at sub retail levels. If this want the case, they could easily bid retail on any auction venue where it may be offered.
No offense intended to the OP, but I don't really understand this kind of scenario. Is it common among people who sell coins?
It seems to me that selling a coin transfers all associated rights, including decisions about future sales. If the seller discounted the coin based on some kind of agreement then the buyer might be on the hook, but then again, if the seller really wants the coin then why did they sell it in the first place? 🤔
I could see if a family heirloom was up for grabs and everyone had to agree that if the winner ever wanted to sell then the other family members would get a right of first refusal. Maybe the same thing if you give something special as a gift. But on a commercial transaction?
Is there a time limit on such expectations? A year? Five years? Twenty years? Forever?
If the buyer got the proverbial offer that they couldn't refuse, are they realistically supposed to put the offer on hold until they contact the original seller? What if the delay causes the offer to fall through - is the original seller expected to buy it at that price? What about auction scenarios? How can the original seller be given right of first refusal when the selling price isn't known?
I understand the part about people keeping their word, but when an agreement makes little practical sense (to the buyer) and is entirely unenforceable, it's easy to see how it gets forgotten.
It looks to me like a seller wanting to profit from an item the first time its sold, and then trying to keep the right to potentially profit off it again down the road. A pretty nice arrangement if it works out.
I've learn this lesson as well, honor and integrity seen to be in short supply for many these days.
As my good friend suggested cross them off the list and move on.
As an aside, would you be interested in recording the cert numbers in the black NGC census?
I don't understand how this verbal agreement was supposed to work in the first place.
If a person wants to consign his coins to auction, how would he give you first refusal over the winning bidder? Or how would he establish a price without the competition of live bidding?
If a person gets an offer at a show, should be pause, say "wait, I need to talk to the guy I purchased this from 20 years ago, if he's still around" and wait 24 hours? 48 hours? a week? for your reply before selling to the person in front of him?
In Jewish tradition there's a term which roughly translates to "a law which the people cannot withstand". To put this in context, I don't think it was a realistic expectation on your part. Even if the buyers all agreed in good faith and had perfect moral standing, as the decades go by and situations change, the contract becomes un-enforceable. The expectation for a lifelong commitment by the buyer is just too heavy a burden.
Just my $0.02
Many years back I worked with a well known dealer in the Laurel, Maryland area. I bought a lot of really nice coins from him at some pretty strong prices. He would say, when you want to sell this coin or that coin give me first shot and I agreed. 4 or 5 years later my interest changed and I decided to move some of the better pieces. Since I remembered our conversations I decided to offer them back to him. Imagine my surprise when looked them over and they had all developed problems, in his eyes, and the going price on them was about 30 percent less than I had originally paid. That was a 3000 dollar loss on a 10,000 dollar investment. Along with the problems the market had crashed, nobody was buying those coins at this time and "problem" coins were hard to move. This was pre-TPG and they were still in the same 2x2 with his writing on them.
I learned an expensive lesson and have never gone back to the same dealer I buy from to move coins I no longer want or need. I didn't buy anything else from him or offer him anything else I was moving. My loss I guess, it's the coin business.
In theory, it would likely go as follows:
1) contact the op saying you are selling for $x and need to know his decision within y hours.
2) if you don’t hear back or the price isn’t agreed to, then your end of the bargain is met and you can sell to someone else (or auction)
In practice, all the points you and several others brought up can easily muddle matters.
IMO, selling anything with strings attached is a very bad idea, as many things can go wrong.
Dave
I am not sure why this is so confusing to people. I have bought many coins from dealers and in some cases they have asked to get a chance to buy them back. I send a quick email when I am selling and give them the chance. The ones I was not interested in doing that with I tell them that up front.
It sounds like these buyers agreed to contact the seller.
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$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
Remember the recent thread of the authentic guarantee gone wrong... 10 years after the fact?
... and not long after failed attempts to upgrade?
I think you got cherrypicked and selling was always their intention.
Are/were you a buyer at 10X (or whatever the multiple) ?
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a great and fun way to cultivate, sustain and build long-term relationships with people and to be able to "share" coins with one another w/o losing them in a way especially considering it is usually scenarios with coins that are not as easy/affordable to replace.
I've never grasped the concept of first right of refusal.
Why sell something you might want back ?
I see both sides of this one. On one hand, if you wanted them that badly, you should have never sold them. A person is entitled to do as they please with their property.
On the other hand…. what exactly was the nature of the agreement?
The expectation in each of these scenarios is a little different.