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Selling old black holder NGC coins to forum members......my experiences.

LuxorLuxor Posts: 408 ✭✭✭✭✭

Going back quite a few years on the PCGS forums I've sold a total of 5 old black holder NGC coins to various forum members (1 coin to one guy, and 2 each to two others) with the condition and gentleman's verbal agreement at the time of sale that should they ever decide to sell the coins anytime down the road that they would let me know and give me first shot to buy them back. In each case the three various forum members all agreed and said that was fair and I took them all at their word, These coins were all sold back when the old black holders still brought a premium but of course nowhere near the absurd money they bring today when rarely offered.

So here's what has happened since and my experience with taking people at their word...... forum member #1 that bought 1 coin didn't last very long and flipped his for a profit without giving me first shot as we agreed, and when I called him on it he apologized. Forum member #2 that bought 2 coins lasted a few years and then I saw both coins in Heritage auctions. I also called him on it and he never responded to me and some time afterwards he stopped posting here. Forum member #3 who also bought 2 coins lasted the longest and I've only just recently also saw 1 of the coins listed at auction, although I have no way of knowing who consigned it and if was the same person here who bought it from me or if it's traded hands since.

I would also mention these are / were all highly regarded long time forum members who I thought would honor their word at the time. So the moral of this story is.......well, you can decide that for yourself. I still have a couple more old black holder coins that I purchased from a local dealer when they traded for no premium, but will not offer them for sale privately anytime soon. Also, I sold the coins on the old forums when my forum name was dragon and then later quit the forums after a private email dispute with the then president of PCGS over a submission and later rejoined with my current name after he left PCGS.

Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.

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Comments

  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 5,597 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Since you mentioned changing names and the sales being on the older forums, did the people have your contact info? It might not be easy to figure out you were the same person given the new name.

    And if they did have the info, I can see you being upset. However, agreements like you mentioned aren’t always easy to remember. Some people don’t keep notes and could forget who they even got the coin from (less likely for the person who quickly flipped the coin but more likely for the one that just recently sold their example).

  • ToreyTorey Posts: 131 ✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2022 10:02PM

    .

  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,752 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I certainly can understand your feelings, honor and integrity seen to be in short supply for some these days. And I will also say that U1 makes a good point, if those members lost your contact info or it changed that could have been a factor.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Welcome back! I remember you quite well and am happy to know you have not disappeared into the mists of time.

    As for the transactions, well, people are people and they can disappoint at any time.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @U1chicago said:
    Since you mentioned changing names and the sales being on the older forums, did the people have your contact info? It might not be easy to figure out you were the same person given the new name.

    It wouldn't be hard to start a thread asking "Anybody know how to contact XXXXXX?"

  • ToreyTorey Posts: 131 ✭✭✭

    Say someone purchased a black-label walker from you years ago for $500-$1,000. It might be hard for them to contact you back, with their asking price of 10k.

  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 5,597 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    @U1chicago said:
    Since you mentioned changing names and the sales being on the older forums, did the people have your contact info? It might not be easy to figure out you were the same person given the new name.

    It wouldn't be hard to start a thread asking "Anybody know how to contact XXXXXX?"

    That wouldn't be hard if you have some recording of the name. If you just had your messages from an older forum and they disappeared, it would not be as easy.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @U1chicago said:

    @MasonG said:

    @U1chicago said:
    Since you mentioned changing names and the sales being on the older forums, did the people have your contact info? It might not be easy to figure out you were the same person given the new name.

    It wouldn't be hard to start a thread asking "Anybody know how to contact XXXXXX?"

    That wouldn't be hard if you have some recording of the name. If you just had your messages from an older forum and they disappeared, it would not be as easy.

    Since the OP says he contacted two of the buyers, it's likely he also has the name of the third.

  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 5,597 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    @U1chicago said:

    @MasonG said:

    @U1chicago said:
    Since you mentioned changing names and the sales being on the older forums, did the people have your contact info? It might not be easy to figure out you were the same person given the new name.

    It wouldn't be hard to start a thread asking "Anybody know how to contact XXXXXX?"

    That wouldn't be hard if you have some recording of the name. If you just had your messages from an older forum and they disappeared, it would not be as easy.

    Since the OP says he contacted two of the buyers, it's likely he also has the name of the third.

    The OP has their names but do they have his name/contact info? By the time he contacted them, the coins were already sold or selling in an auction.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2022 9:22PM

    @U1chicago said:
    The OP has their names but do they have his name/contact info?

    I don't know.

    If you bought something with an agreement to give the seller the first chance to buy it back, wouldn't you keep their contact info? I would.

    Going back to my first post on this thread, if you say you'll do something, you should do it.

  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 5,597 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CoinConsign said:
    Say someone purchased a black-label walker from you years ago for $500-$1,000. It might be hard for them to contact you back, with their asking price of 10k.

    This might also be part of the issue. Yes it is easy enough to offer it back and say you want 10k but it could lead to a more combative situation (with the original seller being unhappy that the price is now so high).

  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 5,597 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    @U1chicago said:
    The OP has their names but do they have his name/contact info?

    I don't know.

    If you bought something with an agreement to give the seller the first chance to buy it back, wouldn't you keep their contact info? I would.

    You would; someone else might not. Or they kept the info in their inbox on the old forum and it didn't carry over.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @U1chicago said:

    @CoinConsign said:
    Say someone purchased a black-label walker from you years ago for $500-$1,000. It might be hard for them to contact you back, with their asking price of 10k.

    This might also be part of the issue. Yes it is easy enough to offer it back and say you want 10k but it could lead to a more combative situation (with the original seller being unhappy that the price is now so high).

    The OP:

    "These coins were all sold back when the old black holders still brought a premium but of course nowhere near the absurd money they bring today when rarely offered."

    It sure doesn't sound like he'd be surprised by the asking price.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @U1chicago said:
    You would; someone else might not. Or they kept the info in their inbox on the old forum and it didn't carry over.

    It's possible his dog ate it, too.

    Right?

  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 5,597 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    @U1chicago said:

    @CoinConsign said:
    Say someone purchased a black-label walker from you years ago for $500-$1,000. It might be hard for them to contact you back, with their asking price of 10k.

    This might also be part of the issue. Yes it is easy enough to offer it back and say you want 10k but it could lead to a more combative situation (with the original seller being unhappy that the price is now so high).

    The OP:

    "These coins were all sold back when the old black holders still brought a premium but of course nowhere near the absurd money they bring today when rarely offered."

    It sure doesn't sound like he'd be surprised by the asking price.

    We know that from this post. A person selling a coin back to him had no way of knowing that. From my experiences, when offering a coin back to someone quite a few get offended that the price is "too high"

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you say you'll do something, you should do it.

  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 5,597 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:
    If you say you'll do something, you should do it.

    You should and it’s unfortunate that it didn’t happen. However it happens and the example in this thread is much less serious than many that we have encountered over the years. Hopefully the next person the op makes an agreement with keeps their word.

  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 5,597 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And on the bright side for the op, paying 10-14k for an NGC black holder today could easily be a burial. Consider selling some more of yours at auction to take advantage of this hot slab market.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @U1chicago said:
    You should and it’s unfortunate that it didn’t happen.

  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 5,597 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    @U1chicago said:
    You should and it’s unfortunate that it didn’t happen.

    Ok we get your point. Thanks.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @U1chicago said:
    Ok we get your point. Thanks.

    And we get yours. You're welcome.

  • BigAlBigAl Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭

    Welcome back Howard, I still have that super nice 81cc PL you sold me back in 2003. Nice coin, I tried to upgrade it once and didn’t happen, but this was before “+” grading, so maybe I’ll try again.

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    that is unfortunate to read and i have enjoyed the few times i read about other members having the same verbal agreement as PART of a sale and i'm willing to bet that if that part of the agreement was not agreed upon up front, a sale would possibly not have transpired here and in other instances.

    probably not a bad idea in situations like this to emphasize the ONLY reason a sale is being entertained is BECAUSE a verbal agreement of at least re-offering the item(s) back to the original seller is being agreed to.

    seems simple to me.

    if you or anyone does that in the future, may not be a bad idea to include a little post-it as a reminder as time can take its toll and for one reason or another one may forget about such a stipulation at a given time.

    the fact you did get some apologies does count for a little.

    since you state you did see them for sale, did you ante up and go after them at least?

    also, i have seen threads over the years here from people asking how to get in touch with X so that really isn't a decent excuse, imo.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,399 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @U1chicago said:
    And on the bright side for the op, paying 10-14k for an NGC black holder today could easily be a burial. Consider selling some more of yours at auction to take advantage of this hot slab market.

    Considering their popularity and extreme rarity, it's doubtful they'll drop in price any time soon.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • pcgscacgoldpcgscacgold Posts: 2,636 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My dealings in this hobby have shown me there are less people that act like gentlemen then ones that do. Sorry to hear none of the 3 you worked with could hold a promise. Verbal shouldn’t matter.

  • Project NumismaticsProject Numismatics Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A right of first refusal would have worked well in this case - i.e. you would specifically have the right to match a bonafide offer. You could spell this out on paper in a few simple sentences that include your permanent contact information and a copy for the buyer to sign and return.

    While verbal commitments should be ethically and legally honored, they often are not and it can be hard to prove or remember what the original terms were many years later.

    I’m sorry this happened to you!

  • MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think you should name some names so they have the opportunity to defend themselves or just delete the post altogether. Nothing will be gained by this thread that turns out good.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Admittedly, I am old fashioned - comes with old age - and feel verbal agreements are binding. That being said, in today's world, honor is seemingly at a premium. Sorry to hear of your experience @Luxor... I do recall you under your previous forum name. Welcome back. Cheers, RickO

  • Pnies20Pnies20 Posts: 2,057 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @luxor

    Would you have purchased it back at the new asking price?

    BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.

  • coinercoiner Posts: 431 ✭✭✭

    My opinion is when you sell an item there aren’t any strings attached unless written.
    Personally, when I buy a coin there has to be no strings attached. Not that I wouldn’t honor a verbal agreement—but I just don’t want the hassle.
    The seller at time of sale should be getting FMV for the item. The only reason to want to have a “right of first refusal” type agreement is they may want to be able to buy something back at sub retail levels. If this want the case, they could easily bid retail on any auction venue where it may be offered.

  • shishshish Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've learn this lesson as well, honor and integrity seen to be in short supply for many these days.
    As my good friend suggested cross them off the list and move on.

    Liberty Seated and Trade Dollar Specialist
  • 56morgan56morgan Posts: 37 ✭✭✭

    As an aside, would you be interested in recording the cert numbers in the black NGC census?

  • Klif50Klif50 Posts: 662 ✭✭✭✭

    Many years back I worked with a well known dealer in the Laurel, Maryland area. I bought a lot of really nice coins from him at some pretty strong prices. He would say, when you want to sell this coin or that coin give me first shot and I agreed. 4 or 5 years later my interest changed and I decided to move some of the better pieces. Since I remembered our conversations I decided to offer them back to him. Imagine my surprise when looked them over and they had all developed problems, in his eyes, and the going price on them was about 30 percent less than I had originally paid. That was a 3000 dollar loss on a 10,000 dollar investment. Along with the problems the market had crashed, nobody was buying those coins at this time and "problem" coins were hard to move. This was pre-TPG and they were still in the same 2x2 with his writing on them.

    I learned an expensive lesson and have never gone back to the same dealer I buy from to move coins I no longer want or need. I didn't buy anything else from him or offer him anything else I was moving. My loss I guess, it's the coin business.

  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 5,597 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @desslok said:
    I don't understand how this verbal agreement was supposed to work in the first place.

    If a person wants to consign his coins to auction, how would he give you first refusal over the winning bidder? Or how would he establish a price without the competition of live bidding?

    If a person gets an offer at a show, should be pause, say "wait, I need to talk to the guy I purchased this from 20 years ago, if he's still around" and wait 24 hours? 48 hours? a week? for your reply before selling to the person in front of him?

    In Jewish tradition there's a term which roughly translates to "a law which the people cannot withstand". To put this in context, I don't think it was a realistic expectation on your part. Even if the buyers all agreed in good faith and had perfect moral standing, as the decades go by and situations change, the contract becomes un-enforceable. The expectation for a lifelong commitment by the buyer is just too heavy a burden.

    Just my $0.02

    In theory, it would likely go as follows:
    1) contact the op saying you are selling for $x and need to know his decision within y hours.
    2) if you don’t hear back or the price isn’t agreed to, then your end of the bargain is met and you can sell to someone else (or auction)

    In practice, all the points you and several others brought up can easily muddle matters.

  • Dave99BDave99B Posts: 8,355 ✭✭✭✭✭

    IMO, selling anything with strings attached is a very bad idea, as many things can go wrong.

    Dave

    Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
  • pcgscacgoldpcgscacgold Posts: 2,636 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am not sure why this is so confusing to people. I have bought many coins from dealers and in some cases they have asked to get a chance to buy them back. I send a quick email when I am selling and give them the chance. The ones I was not interested in doing that with I tell them that up front.

    It sounds like these buyers agreed to contact the seller.

  • yspsalesyspsales Posts: 2,206 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2022 12:49PM

    Remember the recent thread of the authentic guarantee gone wrong... 10 years after the fact?

    ... and not long after failed attempts to upgrade?

    I think you got cherrypicked and selling was always their intention.

    Are/were you a buyer at 10X (or whatever the multiple) ?

    BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @pcgscacgold said:
    I am not sure why this is so confusing to people. I have bought many coins from dealers and in some cases they have asked to get a chance to buy them back. I send a quick email when I am selling and give them the chance. The ones I was not interested in doing that with I tell them that up front.

    It sounds like these buyers agreed to contact the seller.

    a great and fun way to cultivate, sustain and build long-term relationships with people and to be able to "share" coins with one another w/o losing them in a way especially considering it is usually scenarios with coins that are not as easy/affordable to replace.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,729 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2022 9:50PM

    I see both sides of this one. On one hand, if you wanted them that badly, you should have never sold them. A person is entitled to do as they please with their property.

    On the other hand…. what exactly was the nature of the agreement?

    • “I will sell you this on the condition that if you ever sell it you give me first shot.”
    • “Enjoy your new coin…. Oh, by the way, think about calling me if you ever sell this….”

    The expectation in each of these scenarios is a little different.

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