Questions regarding retirement and buying some gold..... needed some input

coinsarefun

Hi everyone. Haven't been around much as several people know me Ive been having health problems so we sold our home in LA and and bought a home in Las Vegas(cash) putting the balance in different investments and was thinking to buy maybe a roll of 20 pre 1933 gold double eagles or even slabbed perhaps to add to my retirement portfolio. I've been thinking about this for a few months now, Ive auctioned off a good deal of my coins and tokens and still have a few more n=being auctioned in the next week at Heritage.
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So, would adding gold coins or slabbed gold to my retirement portfolio is a good idea?
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Thanks for any and all your thoughts!

jclovescoins

the prices (and premiums) are so high right now for pre-33 gold...I would buy as generic as possible to avoid the large premiums

DrBuster

40k in generic numi gold?? I'd go modern bullion coins before numis eagles honestly. At that price.

coinsarefun

Thank you for your thoughts so far. I was thinking pre 1933 double eagles to hold for the long term and in the future if I need a few dollars to do something I can sell one or two. Not really thinking to do a big flip.

Martin

Steph. Sounds like you’ve had a few big life changes. If you don’t have one I’d consult a financial planner to set a retirement strategy. It would be hard for anyone here to give you sound advice on this level. However if roll of twenty double eagles are chump change to you, then that is a different story

Good luck and I have always enjoyed your post

Martin

Downtown1974

I’m a big proponent of having some physical PMs as part of one’s portfolio. Some people don’t have the stomach for it. It’s a really slow burn.

derryb

modern us gold. MS69 (not much more premium helps to have the authentification when you resell).

jmski52

modern us gold. MS69 (not much more premium helps to have the authentification when you resell).

+1

ricko

My planning, which I conducted years before retirement, included mainly modern gold. At the time, it was cheap compared to now. Due to the increased value, my gold is totally profit at this time. Good luck Stef... @coinsarefun Cheers, RickO

JDsCoins

I am trying to add modern to my retirement portfolio as well, I have some pre33 gold currently and But I think it is another safe bet to add it

coinsarefun

Thanks everyone, again.......
@rico I too have several graded pre 1933 double eagles and other gold. There is a Las Vegas Show coming soon.
I'm hoping I feel strong enough to go and check it out. Maybe some dealers want to clear out some inexpensively

LukeMarshall

If you have the discretionary funds, adding gold can be quite fun.

In this case you could Challenge yourself to have liquidity at the closest level to spot.

@derryb has a good point, modern Golds, especially the litany of $5 and $10 commems from the Eighties, 90's, and on can be had in non-70 slab for very close to melt. They carry the extra liquidity of the TPG guarantee.

Another thing to consider, is .9999 vs. 90% or 22KT

Some countries consider only .999 and above "investment grade" and actually non-investment grade gold can incur penalties when sold (not something to worry about in america, but something to think about)

Good luck at the shows, and have fun !

1630Boston

@LukeMarshall said:
If you have the discretionary funds, adding gold can be quite fun.

@derryb has a good point, modern Golds, especially the litany of $5 and $10 commems from the Eighties, 90's, and on can be had in non-70 slab for very close to melt. They carry the extra liquidity of the TPG guarantee.

Interesting, after I read that I looked around and found a 1/2 0z from the early eighties, from reputable dealer, in a slab for right around spot.

AUandAG

Silver appeals to more people as it's a lower cost. Might want to look into monster boxes. Whatever you do enjoy my town.....been here since '64.
bob

coinsarefun

I wasn’t able to make it to the show this time but I’m planning on going to the next one.
In the mean time I did manage to buy a 1 ounce gold and 1 ounce silver for a very good price online.
I’ll post it when it arrives. Thank you again to all those who gave me your thoughts.

Dug13

@derryb said:
modern us gold. MS69 (not much more premium helps to have the authentification when you resell).

modern US gold? Are you referring to Eagles or Buffalos? Or both?

derryb

both and gold spouses. I avoid gold commemoratives, too small a crowd to resell to.

Mike59

I think that adding some Pre-1933 Double Eagles is a great idea to add to anybody's retirement. Im planning my own retirement right now and I have pretty much every asset class that exists. I think having some physical gold/silver/slabbed numismatic that can be quickly turned into cash for any reason is a plus. This way if 1 asset class is in a downturn hopefully another asset class is not. It gives you additional preferences to liquidate according to every market condition.
JMHO,
Mike

mapleman

@coinsarefun said:
Hi everyone. Haven't been around much as several people know me Ive been having health problems so we sold our home in LA and and bought a home in Las Vegas(cash) putting the balance in different investments and was thinking to buy maybe a roll of 20 pre 1933 gold double eagles or even slabbed perhaps to add to my retirement portfolio. I've been thinking about this for a few months now, Ive auctioned off a good deal of my coins and tokens and still have a few more n=being auctioned in the next week at Heritage.
.
So, would adding gold coins or slabbed gold to my retirement portfolio is a good idea?
.
Thanks for any and all your thoughts!

IMHO The privacy of gold eagle and buffalo transactions should not be overlooked in retirement planning. Best...

doubleeagle07

There are precious metal IRA's but you won't be allowed to physically posess the metals. Pre-33 stuff is starting to go down. I think you should get what you want. I can't see pre-33 gold going down much in the future cause theirs so little difference over spot now compared to years ago when it was much more.

derryb

A PM IRA may limit you to withdrawal only upon retirement age or a penalty if done so before retirement. Something to check on. Also you can not contribute PMs that you hold to the account. You have to buy them from a participating third party dealer who sends them directly to your IRA administrator's storage facility.

The advantage of holding PMs is being able to liquidate them at a time of your choosing with no penalty.

TwoSides2aCoin

The plan of attack is add to the stack, so ya don't lack... in retirement.

blitzdude

@TwoSides2aCoin said:
The plan of attack is add to the stack, so ya don't lack... in retirement.

True just not at current outrageous premiums. RGDS!

jclovescoins

Three Dan Carr Gold Pieces (as shown) - 150 grams of .999 gold which makes it 4.823 troy ounces
Gold at $1804 - melt is $8,700.69
Sell for $8700 shipped TODAY ONLY
Payment via PPFF

Good luck finding grading gold with pops below 10 pieces ever made at MELT!!!! LOL

LukeMarshall

@jclovescoins I saw your offering on the BST and also thought to post it here... NICE GOLD

coinsarefun

Thanks again everyone for your comments. I do wish I was able to buy more but health hindered me.
However I’m totally stoked over receiving this one several weeks back for very little over melt. I was waiting till I
found my camera and stand but it appears it was stolen in the move. But, this is one I waited for years as the mark up
on these are super expensive.

And……..it goes great with my Beaver Themed collection!.

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.

.

1630Boston

very nice collection @coinsarefun

Goldminers

Amazing and beautiful set of beaver themed medals! Those 3-dollar rectangular ones are fun, and it is always nice to have some native gold.

GoldFinger1969

@coinsarefun said:
So, would adding gold coins or slabbed gold to my retirement portfolio is a good idea?

ABSOLUTELY not as far as being an investment.

OTOH...if you want to put DISCRETIONARY FUNDS that you don't need into modern or classic gold, that is something you need to decide as an individual with your family and/or investment advisor.

As a former private banker and investment professional, I dealt with investment funds from $50,000 to $500,000,000....unless it was a high net-worth individual or an ultra-high net worth individual who I know could lose 10x what they bought in gold and not flinch....I always told them to assume their gold goes down 50% or 75% in value. If that would change their lifestyle, don't buy it.

GoldFinger1969

Over most time periods, coins are a bad-to-mediocre investment. Even trophy coins, the province of the rich who are often price-insensitive, often only deliver 5-7% per annum. Without dividends or interest, it's tough for any commodity to generate double-digit returns consistently over a long period of time.

jmski52

As a former private banker and investment professional, I dealt with investment funds from $50,000 to $500,000,000....unless it was a high net-worth individual or an ultra-high net worth individual who I know could lose 10x what they bought in gold and not flinch....I always told them to assume their gold goes down 50% or 75% in value. If that would change their lifestyle, don't buy it.

Did you ever tell any of your clients that if stocks & bonds went down 50% or 75% in value, if that would change their lifestyle, don't buy it? Or if they could lose 10X what they bought in stocks & bonds and not flinch, to go ahead and buy them?

Prolly not.

In this environment such as it is, regardless of the premiums you are very vulnerable if you don't have a significant % of your assets in physical precious metals. Your banking experience is working against basic common sense - your bias is more than obvious and frankly - the banking business isn't having a very impressive run these days.

GoldFinger1969

@jmski52 said:
Did you ever tell any of your clients that if stocks & bonds went down 50% or 75% in value, if that would change their lifestyle, don't buy it? Or if they could lose 10X what they bought in stocks & bonds and not flinch, to go ahead and buy them? Prolly not. In this environment such as it is, regardless of the premiums you are very vulnerable if you don't have a significant % of your assets in physical precious metals. Your banking experience is working against basic common sense - your bias is more than obvious and frankly - the banking business isn't having a very impressive run these days.

You don't have drawdowns in stocks and bonds that you do with PMs. You don't have rolling time periods where stocks and bonds lose over 20-year periods.

It's not bias. It's facts, logic, value, compounding, dividends and interest -- that is why stocks and bonds are investments and PMs are NOT.

Stocks and bonds don't go down hard that often. When they do, they can come back sooner than PM's which don't pay dividends or interest. It's basic math, not "banker bias."

PMs and gold and coins are NOT investments. Neither are sports cards, NFTs, or other junk that went up under ZIRP.

jmski52

Ha, that gets an “A” for effort even if your rationale is warped. You make a special exception for the assets you want to promote. No biggie.

That pms have drawdowns and rolling times discounts the fact that they are a well recognized finite asset having universal value - unlike a paper or digital asset that has value only as long as the contracts are honored.

Compounding may be an important consideration, yeah - but not in the context that you imagine, but rather when interest rates are patently unstable while the rate of inflation rises and/or stays around historic highs, such as right now and for the past few months.

Define “investment” however you want, but the acid test is how well owning that asset over time and in real time - protects you & your family during uncertain times. My vote is for physical pms, commodities, land, equipment, personal skills.....those are much better than stocks in large corporate conglomerates and certainly not bonds.

Goldminers

Definition of an Investment:
The action or process of investing money for profit or material result.
A thing that is worth buying because it may be profitable or useful in the future.
An act of devoting time, effort, or energy to a particular undertaking with the expectation of a worthwhile result.

PM's and graded coins are investments. They may not earn interest and may not have done as well as stocks over a given time period, but that does not make them any less of an investment.

tincup

" In this environment such as it is, regardless of the premiums you are very vulnerable if you don't have a significant % of your assets in physical precious metals. "

In years past financial advisors nearly all abhorred precious metals and would recommend 0 percent for their clients. (perhaps because they themselves would get no income from fees, commissions, etc.... or whatever the reason.)

In more recent years, they now seem to say, well, 5% in precious metals (if you must have some!), but not with much enthusiasm or conviction... definitely want to keep you into 'paper' products.

BUT... what concerns me, is that old rules and laws no longer seem to apply. Worldwide, depositors money is now used to bail out banks, bondholders who should be first in line, are forced to take the losses while others get their money, etc. It's feeling more and more like a 'c**p shoot ' everywhere.

jmski52, " In this environment such as it is ", what do you now consider to be an appropriate percentage to have in the physical metals? And, has this increased from what you believe was appropriate in the past? (not a trick question of any sort... many on this forum are certainly getting jittery about what is taking place in the world scene)

Any one else? What percentage in physical metals and what mix?

streeter

I've been collecting coins since the second grade and buying gold coins since the 90's.

I do not consider gold as an investment. In the last 30 years, if I needed to liquidate at the wrong time, I would have lost money. I buy gold with about 10% of my after tax profit from my business. It's been good to me over the long haul but I tread lightly at these spot prices.

tincup

Yeah, I can see being somewhat selective at these spot prices and premiums.

I am hearing gold IRA commercials all over the place (they have always been around, but seem to be really ramping up more).

streeter.... so you are thinking 10% gold is perhaps a suitable level?

streeter

Tincup
If you read closely, I said ten percent of my after tax profits from my business. Not ten percent.
YMMV.
If you are a W-2 individual and your wages and/or salary is $100,000 yr and you manage to save $20,000 on any given yr then my formula translates to one ounce That particular yr. Not 10% of a $100,000.
Over a period of hypothetically 10-30 yrs you are probably safe but that's not always true. Just look at 1985-1995. Gold fell off the cliff. It took another ten+ yrs after that to get back to the 1985 level.

I've been collecting and buying, selling since 1962. YMMV

The price of gold is correlated to the price of diesel fuel. Not exactly but close.

blitzdude

Good thing you were buying the Au and not gutter metal. You'd still be in a hole. RGDS!

derryb

one might be wise to consider gold mining stocks are gold mining ETFs in lieu of hard metals. A case could be made that your average investor will run to them, instead of hard gold, when the stock bubble does explode.

GoldFinger1969

@jmski52 said:
Ha, that gets an “A” for effort even if your rationale is warped. You make a special exception for the assets you want to promote. No biggie.

I'm not promoting any assets. I'm stating historical facts and what is deemed "prudent" by any competent financial professional or oversight board.

PMs are speculative and for most individuals should not be more than 5-10% of one's portfolio, and for most people, less than that.

That pms have drawdowns and rolling times discounts the fact that they are a well recognized finite asset having universal value - unlike a paper or digital asset that has value only as long as the contracts are honored.

Irrelevant if it takes decades or longer for your scenario to play out. That also assumes that new sources of supply don't pop up....OR....demand doesn't evaporate (how's auto demand for palladium looking in a world of EVs ?).

Compounding may be an important consideration, yeah - but not in the context that you imagine, but rather when interest rates are patently unstable while the rate of inflation rises and/or stays around historic highs, such as right now and for the past few months.

Historic highs ? We had an inflation surge and it's headed back down. I don't think it's heading back to 2% right now but even 3-4% inflation is not a 1970's replay. You're trying to sell the 1970's Playbook without realizing those were once-in-a-generation confluences.

Define “investment” however you want, but the acid test is how well owning that asset over time and in real time - protects you & your family during uncertain times. My vote is for physical pms, commodities, land, equipment, personal skills.....those are much better than stocks in large corporate conglomerates and certainly not bonds.

In "uncertain" times it is highly unlikely that global demand for commodities increases as we saw in every downturn since 1980.

You are talking about putting $$$ into illiquid, difficult-to-sell tangible assets to replace liquid, easy-to-sell financial assets.

That strategy is unlikely to appeal to most Americans and even less likely to prove a winning combination.

GoldFinger1969

@streeter said:
The price of gold is correlated to the price of diesel fuel. Not exactly but close.

I could make a stronger case that it is correlated to the price of a box of Kellogg's Fruit Loops cereal.

dcarr

@GoldFinger1969 said:
You are talking about putting $$$ into illiquid, difficult-to-sell tangible assets to replace liquid, easy-to-sell financial assets.

Gold is always accepted. Financial instruments, especially complex derivative types, not so much.

And gold is a "Tier 1" asset in the European bank system. As Alan Greenspan once wrote: "gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world. Fiat money in extremis is accepted by nobody. Gold is always accepted".

I would not call it "illiquid".

dcarr

@streeter said:
I've been collecting coins since the second grade and buying gold coins since the 90's.

@blitzdude said:
Good thing you were buying the Au and not gutter metal. You'd still be in a hole. RGDS!

For all of the 1990s, the price of silver was in the range of about $10 to about $12.
Silver is double that now.

dcarr

@tincup said:
Any one else? What percentage in physical metals and what mix?

>

I would prioritize things this way (starting with the highest priority):

1: Develop skills that have value to others.
2: Secure a residence that you own outright.
3: Pay off debt.
4: If you have achieved the top three, the rest is whatever you like. If you like gold a lot, then 100% gold.

GoldFinger1969

@dcarr said:
Gold is always accepted. Financial instruments, especially complex derivative types, not so much.
And gold is a "Tier 1" asset in the European bank system. As Alan Greenspan once wrote: "gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world. Fiat money in extremis is accepted by nobody. Gold is always accepted".
I would not call it "illiquid".

The gold market trades $50 billion a day, on average.

The currency markets trade $7 trillion a day on average....the largest fixed income markets, Treasury and MBS bonds, trade $600 BB and $400 BB a day on average.

Now...if you need to park $20 BB for a few days where are you going ?

GoldFinger1969

@dcarr said:
For all of the 1990s, the price of silver was in the range of about $10 to about $12.
Silver is double that now.

I think it IS going higher. I like the longer-term supply/demand fundamentals.

But I wouldn't invest on that or bet the farm on it. A small %, only what you can afford to see go down 50% and not lose sleep.

GoldFinger1969

@derryb said:
one might be wise to consider gold mining stocks are gold mining ETFs in lieu of hard metals. A case could be made that your average investor will run to them, instead of hard gold, when the stock bubble does explode.

If stocks are going down, gold stocks will likely go down.

Gold companies and gold stocks have been destroyers of shareholder value for DECADES.

blitzdude

@dcarr said:

@streeter said:
I've been collecting coins since the second grade and buying gold coins since the 90's.

@blitzdude said:
Good thing you were buying the Au and not gutter metal. You'd still be in a hole. RGDS!

For all of the 1990s, the price of silver was in the range of about $10 to about $12.
Silver is double that now.

Ya gutter was more than 2x it's current price just over a decade ago. Your point? THKS!

dcarr

@blitzdude said:

@dcarr said:

@streeter said:
I've been collecting coins since the second grade and buying gold coins since the 90's.

@blitzdude said:
Good thing you were buying the Au and not gutter metal. You'd still be in a hole. RGDS!

For all of the 1990s, the price of silver was in the range of about $10 to about $12.
Silver is double that now.

Ya gutter was more than 2x it's current price just over a decade ago. Your point? THKS!

For a relatively short time span.
If you bought at the average price over a longer time span along the trend line (avoiding the spikes), you would not be "in the hole".

roadrunner

@GoldFinger1969 said:

@jmski52 said:

You don't have drawdowns in stocks and bonds that you do with PMs. You don't have rolling time periods where stocks and bonds lose over 20-year periods.

It's not bias. It's facts, logic, value, compounding, dividends and interest -- that is why stocks and bonds are investments and PMs are NOT.

Stocks and bonds don't go down hard that often. When they do, they can come back sooner than PM's which don't pay dividends or interest. It's basic math, not "banker bias."

PMs and gold and coins are NOT investments. Neither are sports cards, NFTs, or other junk that went up under ZIRP.

No drawdowns in stocks? Guess you missed 1929-1942, 1966 to 1982, 1998-2011 to name the 3 most obvious ones. Stocks did basically nothing in those periods except whipsaw and crush "investor" dreams. Following the 1929 crash it took 25 yrs to recover the 1920's high point. That's worse than a draw down. That's an entire wasted generation of stock investors. In the 1966 to 1982 period there were multiple draw downs of 25% to 35% draw downs and essentially a flat chart for 16 yrs. The majority of a generation missing out there. 2000 to 2009 while not 20 yrs was a 35% draw down where many investors totally lost faith in stocks. How quickly we forgot those horrible returns and ONLY think about the euphoria of 1982-2000 and 2009-2021. That's called recency bias. And as Jminski has noted no brokers ever tells their clients to lighten up or to sell. What's going on now in the markets is another 1920's to 1930's type shakeout....they come every 80-100 yrs. There are no safeguards to prevent it either. It arrives because of long term abuse of the monetary and economic systems. But, most everyone in the markets these days has recency bias and only expects draw downs to now be at most only 6-12 months. What's due now in this 100 yr cycle is a "down hard" correction not experienced by most people currently alive. The best performing asset following the 1929 market crash were gold mining stocks. They not only recovered their 1929 highs in only a few years, but went up 6X from the 1932 lows into 1936. You couldn't really buy physical gold at that time due to the FDR gold "ban" so miners were the next best thing. The regular stock market lagged far behind.

Stocks and bonds are not investments....they are speculations like everything else. To say otherwise is 'banker's or broker's bias." And as a market aggregate, they require a long term inflationary environment to be successful (ie excess money printing). Which is why the stock market didn't make anyone rich in the 1800's because that was a 100 yr period with a slight deflationary slant. This is basic math. PMs, gold and silver, collectibles, etc are all investment speculations that when purchased at the right times do very well, often MUCH better than stocks/bonds. Best collectible periods so far were 1968 to 1980, 1983-1989, 1996-2008, and 2011-2016. Like any speculative investment, stocks included, if you buy at tops and sell near bottoms, you usually lose. Buy your speculations when there is blood in the street....near bottoms.

One difference in gold and silver and most fine collectibles, they never go to $0 or anything near that.....unlike stocks which go bankrupt all the time. That's a key reason why laggards and losers are kicked off the stock indexes and only winners allowed to stay. My own Fortune 500 company (Ogden Services) went chapter bankrupt in 2002 following the strains of 9/11 on the transportation and entertainment sectors. The stock became worthless. It reorganized in 2003 under a new name but the damage was done. Yes, "good" companies can go bankrupt under black swan events. But usually, there's an underlying weakness that gets accentuated. Stocks are no safer than anything else.