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Pedley-Ryan So-Called Dollar Pattern / Error? HK-825 Type IV

ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

Check out this Pedley-Ryan Dollar's character set.

It looks like the "P" in Pedley, "R" in Ryan and "C" in Co. were struck with both small capital letters (like "edley" and "yan") and large capital letters.

Large capital letters is standard so I'm wondering if this was an error that was corrected?

It has a very interesting look to it and I'm curious how it came about.

Comments

  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,970 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think what you are seeing is a double punch, a little lower and perhaps tilted so that only the top portion of the letters struck.

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2022 5:51AM

    @DCW said:
    I think what you are seeing is a double punch, a little lower and perhaps tilted so that only the top portion of the letters struck.

    Double punching is common on Pedley-Ryan Dollars and it looks like the small capital letters could have been double punched, like the small cap "P" and "C". The large "R" and "C" don't look like they are double punched to me, but the large "P" looks like it could possibly be double punched.

    What's more interesting to me is that it seems like there's a large "P" and a small "P" while the regular ones see to only have a large "P". That and that tops of the small letters for P, R and C line up with the tops of the small caps and that there are no punch marks below the the imaginary line that would be present if the large "P", "R" and "C" were punched again much lower.

  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,970 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I dont think these are individually punched letters.
    It's probably just the preliminary punch a little lower. Look at the "&."

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting... The C, & show signs of a third strike/impression. Cheers, RickO

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,585 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2022 9:48AM

    As @DCW stated, if you have the stamp and tipped it up so only the top edge hits, and do a light low test hit one, then another, 2, then get it level, raise it up some, and hit hard, 3.

    One, two, three, go?

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Goldminers said:
    As @DCW stated, if you have the stamp and tipped it up so only the top edge hits, and do a light low test hit one, then another, 2, then get it level, raise it up some, and hit hard, 3.

    One, two, three, go?

    Yes, this is the result of a first (light) impression via a tilted punch, and then a subsequent normal strike.

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,717 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I see three impressions on a few of the characters, but otherwise I agree with the responses above. Looks like a false start or two.

  • ByersByers Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins

    A very interesting piece!!

    mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,529 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Agree with tilted first punch or two then normal punch.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2022 2:05PM

    @DCW said:
    I dont think these are individually punched letters.
    It's probably just the preliminary punch a little lower. Look at the "&."

    Good call Den and everyone!

    I think the "&" does give it away!

    So not a different set of punches, but still extremely cool in my opinion. It's probably the most interesting standard HK-825 that I've seen.

    Given the placements I've seen on other PRDs, I'm wondering if this placement with the larger discrepancy was done intentionally, like an intentional error.

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've seen others over the years punched like this.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Broadstruck said:
    I've seen others over the years punched like this.

    That's very interesting! It would be great to track some of these down.

    The placement of the full strike over the partial strike definitely looks intentional to me.

    If there are multiple specimens of this, I wonder if this is an intentional variety.

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2022 6:25AM

    @Zoins said:

    @Broadstruck said:
    I've seen others over the years punched like this.

    That's very interesting! It would be great to track some of these down.

    The placement of the full strike over the partial strike definitely looks intentional to me.

    If there are multiple specimens of this, I wonder if this is an intentional variety.

    I think you are reading into this too deeply thinking it's something greater than it really is...

    It's not a pattern nor a mint error just a punch mishap which could have been due to something as simple as coffee jitters.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,884 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2022 7:00AM

    These Pedley-Ryan's used to interest me when I first started to collect So-Called Dollars many years ago, there was a sort of romanticism and Old West-ness about them that I liked. That faded and I now see them as a dull, plain curiosity from a depressed era in our Nations economy, nothing more. As such it still fascinates me that they enjoy the interest that they do.

    It's important to remember that the nature of the hand stamping means any number of anomilies could have and apparently did take place. Weren't these done by the secretary?? Whoever it was didn't have a steady hand and might have gotten better if more had sold. Along with all the Lesher Dollars these monetary issues offer a perplexing riddle for me: if they are so popular and exist in such small numbers, why are they always available for sale?? As best as I can figure, collectors want them but not for long, maybe because they are nothing more than a punched out silver blank with some letters stamped on them, a failed business gimmick.

    If you can't tell from this post I think they're silly.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2022 9:07AM

    @Broadstruck said:

    @Zoins said:

    @Broadstruck said:
    I've seen others over the years punched like this.

    That's very interesting! It would be great to track some of these down.

    The placement of the full strike over the partial strike definitely looks intentional to me.

    If there are multiple specimens of this, I wonder if this is an intentional variety.

    I think you are reading into this too deeply thinking it's something greater than it really is...

    It's not a pattern nor a mint error just a punch mishap which could have been due to something as simple as coffee jitters.

    Thanks for your thoughts. I'm not that surprised there would be thoughts along these lines, but I like to be a contrarian.

    If there are a number of others like this as you mention, perhaps it's not so random! I'm specifically focusing on the area where the top of the large caps in the first strikes meet the top of the small caps in what looks like the second strike.

    As for seeing it for something greater than it really is, I like inexpensive fun. That it's a small detail doesn't matter that much to me as I think small details are things that many coin collectors tend to focus on. That's what minor varieties and minor errors are about. Imagine talking about VAMs or high and low leafs to a non-collector? And while Hibler and Kappen doesn't cover varieties for So-Called Dollars, they are covered in Shevlin and Hyder so it just takes some people that are interested in collecting and cataloging.

    As mentioned, a big reason for doing so is that there's little interest or competition so it tends to be an inexpensive past time... until it's not. Also, I like So-Called Dollars and pro-silver pieces so this gives me a way to dive into these areas more.

    And it won't be the first time I collected an area you told me wasn't worthwhile ;)

  • MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,884 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said: so it tends to be an inexpensive past time.

    C'mon, man!!! “pass time” “pass-time” “passtime,” not "past time" it's pastime. :p>:)

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2022 11:26PM

    @Maywood said:
    These Pedley-Ryan's used to interest me when I first started to collect So-Called Dollars many years ago, there was a sort of romanticism and Old West-ness about them that I liked. That faded and I now see them as a dull, plain curiosity from a depressed era in our Nations economy, nothing more. As such it still fascinates me that they enjoy the interest that they do.

    It's important to remember that the nature of the hand stamping means any number of anomilies could have and apparently did take place. Weren't these done by the secretary?? Whoever it was didn't have a steady hand and might have gotten better if more had sold. Along with all the Lesher Dollars these monetary issues offer a perplexing riddle for me: if they are so popular and exist in such small numbers, why are they always available for sale?? As best as I can figure, collectors want them but not for long, maybe because they are nothing more than a punched out silver blank with some letters stamped on them, a failed business gimmick.

    If you can't tell from this post I think they're silly.

    The market for vintage (1980s and before) silver bullion bars and rounds has been quite "hot", especially for poured-style bars and imprint-style rounds. The Pedley-Ryan pieces are among the earliest of the imprint-style rounds. I also collect the circa 1974-1977 series of Colorado town imprinted silver rounds. This one went for quite a bit more than the most common HK-825 Pedley Ryan ($234.50 with shipping):

    https://ebay.com/itm/354315856250

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2022 12:22AM

    @Maywood said:
    @Zoins said: so it tends to be an inexpensive past time.

    C'mon, man!!! “pass time” “pass-time” “passtime,” not "past time" it's pastime. :p>:)

    But coins are from the past! :p;)

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2022 8:13PM

    @Maywood said:
    These Pedley-Ryan's used to interest me when I first started to collect So-Called Dollars many years ago, there was a sort of romanticism and Old West-ness about them that I liked. That faded and I now see them as a dull, plain curiosity from a depressed era in our Nations economy, nothing more. As such it still fascinates me that they enjoy the interest that they do.

    It's important to remember that the nature of the hand stamping means any number of anomilies could have and apparently did take place. Weren't these done by the secretary?? Whoever it was didn't have a steady hand and might have gotten better if more had sold. Along with all the Lesher Dollars these monetary issues offer a perplexing riddle for me: if they are so popular and exist in such small numbers, why are they always available for sale?? As best as I can figure, collectors want them but not for long, maybe because they are nothing more than a punched out silver blank with some letters stamped on them, a failed business gimmick.

    If you can't tell from this post I think they're silly.

    I think PRDs and Leshers are in different situations. I think there are many PRDs on the market because there are just more pieces than demand for PRDs. I think Leshers are available and high because some people pay high amounts for some, like patterns, which convinces dealers to list the rest of them for high amounts.

    I personally love the history of these because they are a bit mysterious.

    As for silliness, just explain coin collecting to a non-collector ;)

  • MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,884 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Below is another of these medals which exhibits the over-stamped lettering similar to the OP's medal, just in a different location. I'm sure if you look at enough of these medals you'll find it to be relatively common.

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