@fergie23 said:
Goldenage, you don't seem to understand basic math. More goals scored on average doesn't mean a higher goal differential. The chart you posted shows that there was something wrong in the league in the 70s with respect to competitive balance, it is as simple as that.
It would be like looking at a chart of all time single season home run leaders and concluding that the greatest sluggers in MLB history played in the late 90s and early 2000s without considering why the stats are skewed during that era.
Robb
Never said it did.
George said he remembered double digit goal totals from the 70’s.
I asked him how he forgot all the goal totals from the 80’s ?
I was simply implying that goal differential is a marker for a great team, but not a key statistic in evaluating teams from different years.
High goal differentials result from imbalance. If inclined, I could show scenarios where: a) a couple teams would have high goal differentials where it would not only be obvious that the team with the higher differential wasn't better, but was, in fact worse; and b) a more competitive balance produces lower differentials but shows a team clearly superior to everyone else.
While some have touched on the reasons - which aren't terribly hard to figure out if you're willing to put some thought into it - the 70's, particularly 1975-1978, produced really high disparities between the haves and have nots.
That said, those Canadiens teams were, indeed, some of the finest assembled and may, in fact, be the best ever. However, it can never be proven one way or another. Consequently, it is an opinion with no definitive correct answer, although there may be a strong consensus opinion.
Just stop saying your opinion is fact, particularly when others with significant knowledge and experience have thought about these questions on a deeper multifactorial way.
@fergie23 said:
Goldenage, you don't seem to understand basic math. More goals scored on average doesn't mean a higher goal differential. The chart you posted shows that there was something wrong in the league in the 70s with respect to competitive balance, it is as simple as that.
It would be like looking at a chart of all time single season home run leaders and concluding that the greatest sluggers in MLB history played in the late 90s and early 2000s without considering why the stats are skewed during that era.
Robb
Never said it did.
George said he remembered double digit goal totals from the 70’s.
I asked him how he forgot all the goal totals from the 80’s ?
I was simply implying that goal differential is a marker for a great team, but not a key statistic in evaluating teams from different years.
High goal differentials result from imbalance. If inclined, I could show scenarios where: a) a couple teams would have high goal differentials where it would not only be obvious that the team with the higher differential wasn't better, but was, in fact worse; and b) a more competitive balance produces lower differentials but shows a team clearly superior to everyone else.
While some have touched on the reasons - which aren't terribly hard to figure out if you're willing to put some thought into it - the 70's, particularly 1975-1978, produced really high disparities between the haves and have nots.
That said, those Canadiens teams were, indeed, some of the finest assembled and may, in fact, be the best ever. However, it can never be proven one way or another. Consequently, it is an opinion with no definitive correct answer, although there may be a strong consensus opinion.
Just stop saying your opinion is fact, particularly when others with significant knowledge and experience have thought about these questions on a deeper multifactorial way.
Bruins-Flyers today.
You may need Bernie in net today.
1976 Montreal (9 HOF) and the greatest goal differential ever.
1970 Boston (4 HOF) and the second greatest goal difference ever.
Since 1970 the two best teams ever
by far. Until you show me proof that 3rd and 4th liners from the poor teams in the 70’s were worse then the 3rd and 4th liners from the 80-00’s, I’ll contend for what I believe to be true.
Because of Bobby Orr the Bruins did it in 1970 with 5 less HOFamers.
That was Bobby’s healthiest year in the NHL. He was having knee trouble at age 18.
The NHL always has stars, Super stars, and role players. That will never change.
Even if you throw Roy into a 1974-1986 span it’s still the worst new goalie talent ever.
You mentioning Roy is irrelevant no matter how you look at it.
1985 is "after 1985". Got it.
You're just mad that you said no HOF goalies debuted in the 80s, got proven wrong, moved the goalposts, and got proven wrong again.
You and Dallas proved your hockey knowledge about six months ago when he said to you, “I’ll give you that Bobby Orr wasn’t the greatest defensive defenseman ever”.
Absolutely the most funniest thing I ever read here.
@fergie23 said:
Goldenage, you don't seem to understand basic math. More goals scored on average doesn't mean a higher goal differential. The chart you posted shows that there was something wrong in the league in the 70s with respect to competitive balance, it is as simple as that.
It would be like looking at a chart of all time single season home run leaders and concluding that the greatest sluggers in MLB history played in the late 90s and early 2000s without considering why the stats are skewed during that era.
Robb
Never said it did.
George said he remembered double digit goal totals from the 70’s.
I asked him how he forgot all the goal totals from the 80’s ?
Just stop saying your opinion is fact, particularly when others with significant knowledge and experience have thought about these questions on a deeper multifactorial way.
Fact. Bowman was the greatest coach ever.
Fact. Besides the 70 Bruins he coached the most dominant teams ever.
Outside of Plante, Harvey, Rocket, Beliveau, Boom Boom and pocket Rocket.
Howe - Sawchuk and company was very powerful.
Orr didn’t have enough support with Espo and Cheevers to beat Plante’s group.
Dryden, Robinson, Lafluer and company would give Orr and Howes teams a rough test. I think Orr at his best in the late 70’s would have helped Boston beat Montreal if he stayed and was healthy.
1950’s Montreal the best ever.
There’s more facts you could learn if you understand him and see why Orr, Howe, Rocket and Mario were better than Wayne.
Try to get to his level and we will understand each other better. Thank you.
Even if you throw Roy into a 1974-1986 span it’s still the worst new goalie talent ever.
You mentioning Roy is irrelevant no matter how you look at it.
1985 is "after 1985". Got it.
You're just mad that you said no HOF goalies debuted in the 80s, got proven wrong, moved the goalposts, and got proven wrong again.
You and Dallas proved your hockey knowledge about six months ago when he said to you, “I’ll give you that Bobby Orr wasn’t the greatest defensive defenseman ever”.
And yet you're over here touting +/- and ignoring stat inflation from expansion. That's even funnier.
I was texting today with my cousin up in Mass. We pretty much only talk sports. He is my hockey guy, so I gave him your theory @Goldenage about teams tanking, and thusly facilitating the Bs record breaking record. He tore your theory apart. I also told him you were arguing that Orr is the GOAT. Before I could go further he said "let me guess, his argument starts with the idea that the league was smaller and less watered down". Lol He did concede that Orr is the "most important" player ever
@thisistheshow said:
I was texting today with my cousin up in Mass. We pretty much only talk sports. He is my hockey guy, so I gave him your theory @Goldenage about teams tanking, and thusly facilitating the Bs record breaking record. He tore your theory apart. I also told him you were arguing that Orr is the GOAT. Before I could go further he said "let me guess, his argument starts with the idea that the league was smaller and less watered down". Lol He did concede that Orr is the "most important" player ever
Hebrews 5:2
😉
Many see hockey differently.
It’s part of life.
Two people can witness the same car accident and claim different perspectives of it.
With wisdom, knowledge, and experience comes perspective.
I’m a Scotty Bowman like thinker.
@thisistheshow said:
I was texting today with my cousin up in Mass. We pretty much only talk sports. He is my hockey guy, so I gave him your theory @Goldenage about teams tanking, and thusly facilitating the Bs record breaking record. He tore your theory apart. I also told him you were arguing that Orr is the GOAT. Before I could go further he said "let me guess, his argument starts with the idea that the league was smaller and less watered down". Lol He did concede that Orr is the "most important" player ever
Hebrews 5:2
😉
Many see hockey differently.
It’s part of life.
Two people can witness the same car accident and claim different perspectives of it.
With wisdom, knowledge, and experience comes perspective.
I’m a Scotty Bowman like thinker.
My guess is your friend is younger then 55.
.....
He is almost 55. I won't go into his credentials but like I said he is my hockey guy. He did agree with you regarding the up and down of the league. Though I was probably misquoting you, so I will ask for some more summary. Orr played through 78. IIRC, you said that the league was better through then and through Gretzky's years. Then down, up, down? I forget.
You and I have something sort of in common when it comes to the Orr as GOAT argument. I think that Bird was the GOAT. Though Orr as GOAT is more in line with Wilt as GOAT, imo. If someone thinks Wilt was GOAT, they will get pushback that Wilt's size and strength (like Orr's skating) wouldn't translate.
You and I have something sort of in common when it comes to the Orr as GOAT argument. I think that Bird was the GOAT. Though Orr as GOAT is more in line with Wilt as GOAT, imo. If someone thinks Wilt was GOAT, they will get pushback that Wilt's size and strength (like Orr's skating) wouldn't translate.
More like Orr as GOAT is the same as Sandy Koufax as GOAT. Both dominated for a very short time (Orr won 8 Norris trophies but really "only" dominated for 6 years; Koufax for 5 years, tops) under absolutely ideal conditions that exaggerated their accomplishments (expansion for Orr, expansion/Dodger Stadium/raised mound/enlarged strike zone for Koufax) and their negatives ignored (Orr averaging nearly half a point less against non-expansion teams, Koufax with a career ERA of 1.37 in Dodger Stadium but 3.38 everywhere else). Both were GREAT players at their peak though.
You and I have something sort of in common when it comes to the Orr as GOAT argument. I think that Bird was the GOAT. Though Orr as GOAT is more in line with Wilt as GOAT, imo. If someone thinks Wilt was GOAT, they will get pushback that Wilt's size and strength (like Orr's skating) wouldn't translate.
More like Orr as GOAT is the same as Sandy Koufax as GOAT. Both dominated for a very short time (Orr won 8 Norris trophies but really "only" dominated for 6 years;
The Orr-Koufax comparison is unjust.
Orr won 8 Norris trophies.
The most ever by any NHL defenseman. So he dominated defensively like no other player in the history of the game.
Orr won two scoring titles.
No other defenseman has EVER done that. So he dominated offensively like no other D man in the history of the game.
He did in 8 years what guys like Lidstrom and Bourque couldn’t do in 20 years.
Think about Koufax winning 8 Cy Young’s in 8 years and no one else ever doing it. That never happened with Koufax. The comparison is unjust.
People don’t think like Scotty Bowman or just never saw Orr play if they think otherwise.
Puck possession in hockey is great defense. No one possessed the puck like Orr. Too fast. Too swift. Couldn’t catch him.
Like I said. These guys just never saw it so they don’t know. They can’t understand how someone dominated so much in 8 years so much that no one else could ever equal it.
He only played one season with great health too. 3 seasons with decent health. The rest no.
Orr won 8 Norris trophies.
The most ever by any NHL defenseman. So he dominated defensively like no other player in the history of the game.
Orr won two scoring titles.
No other defenseman has EVER done that. So he dominated offensively like no other D man in the history of the game.
How good was Orr in his 750th game? Or his 660th? Didn't play in them?
That's exactly why the comparison is perfect. Orr was an excellent player for 3 years and a GREAT player for 6.
Sandy was a GREAT player for 5.
He did in 8 years what guys like Lidstrom and Bourque couldn’t do in 20 years.
Which would be great if we were comparing him to Lidstrom and Bourque but we're not.
But since you brought them up - Orr was amazing for 657 games. Lidstrom was amazing for 1560. That's just a little different.
Think about Koufax winning 8 Cy Young’s in 8 years and no one else ever doing it. That never happened with Koufax. The comparison is unjust.
I figured you wouldn't like it. Fact is, both guys were GREAT for very short periods - 6 years for Orr, 5 years for Koufax.
Also, Koufax also didn't have competition like JC Tremblay and 500-year old Tim Horton at his position.
People don’t think like Scotty Bowman or just never saw Orr play if they think otherwise.
Bowman is hardly infallible.
Puck possession in hockey is great defense. No one possessed the puck like Orr. Too fast. Too swift. Couldn’t catch him.
Yeah, that's kind of how it works when you're playing in an expansion league made up of more than 50% of players who wouldn't have been good enough for the league 5 years earlier. I mean, I suppose it COULD be a coincidence that Bobby's best seasons all came after the NHL doubled in size or after the NHL grew even more while the WHA started. It COULD be but somehow I doubt it.
He only played one season with great health too. 3 seasons with decent health. The rest no.
@Raptormaniacs said:
Again. Orr stood out because the league was crap….
How many HOFers started their NHL careers with Boston during the Orr era? None???
Bowman was a great coach. GOAT??? Idk about that one either…
I think you need to do some homework on both points you made. They were both inaccurate.
I’ll give you a head start.
Bowman has the most wins (by far) and the most Stanley Cups as a coach.
He also has like 8 of the top 10 goal differential teams in league history.
His innovative coaching techniques and strategies created great teams. He’s a hockey genius.
Guess whose coaching strategies the Devils used under Lemaire to win their cups ? Yep. Scotty. Lemaire played for him and knew how dominant that system was.
@Raptormaniacs said:
Again. Orr stood out because the league was crap….
How many HOFers started their NHL careers with Boston during the Orr era? None???
Bowman was a great coach. GOAT??? Idk about that one either…
I think you need to do some homework on both points you made. They were both inaccurate.
I’ll give you a head start.
Bowman has the most wins (by far) and the most Stanley Cups as a coach.
He also has like 8 of the top 10 goal differential teams in league history.
His innovative coaching techniques and strategies created great teams. He’s a hockey genius.
Guess whose coaching strategies the Devils used under Lemaire to win their cups ? Yep. Scotty. Lemaire played for him and knew how dominant that system was.
Skipping to the second part of the question doesn’t make your answer any more correct. …LOL.
You could have put almost any fool behind the bench of those teams and come out with a very similar record. Bowman created a name for himself in Montreal…you’re right. BUT. If he was that great of a coach then why didn’t he stay? I know the answer……
Orr came into the league and was rookie of the year and the best defenseman in the league from the age of 18 until he was 26 and also top 4 player in league every year with 3 first place (to go with four 3rd place) Hart trophy finishes, after which, he was unable to play because of injury.
To those who say Orr was only good because of poor opponents, he was, at the end of his career, the best player in the 1976 Canada Cup. Both Bobby Clarke and Darryl Sittler are quoted as saying so.
Koufax came into the league and for 8 years didn't receive a single Cy Young Award vote. He was great for 3 of the next the next 4 years (although he certainly wasn't much better than Don Drysdale or Juan Marichal), and it wasn't until 1966 that he pitched under a run per game better at home than on the road. Sandy was also great in 1963, but much better at Dodger stadium than on the road.
Koufax shouldn't really be mentioned in the same comparison with Orr imo. As tremendous of a thrower as he was, he really was only great after struggling for 7 years.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@JoeBanzai said:
The Orr/Koufax comparison is a poor one.
Orr came into the league and was rookie of the year and the best defenseman in the league from the age of 18 until he was 26 and also top 4 player in league every year with 3 first place (to go with four 3rd place) Hart trophy finishes, after which, he was unable to play because of injury.
To those who say Orr was only good because of poor opponents, he was, at the end of his career, the best player in the 1976 Canada Cup. Both Bobby Clarke and Darryl Sittler are quoted as saying so.
Koufax came into the league and for 8 years didn't receive a single Cy Young Award vote. He was great for 3 of the next the next 4 years (although he certainly wasn't much better than Don Drysdale or Juan Marichal), and it wasn't until 1966 that he pitched under a run per game better at home than on the road. Sandy was also great in 1963, but much better at Dodger stadium than on the road.
Koufax shouldn't really be mentioned in the same comparison with Orr imo. As tremendous of a thrower as he was, he really was only great after struggling for 7 years.
Thank you Joe. I didn’t have the time to address it in full. Thanks
@Raptormaniacs said:
Again. Orr stood out because the league was crap….
How many HOFers started their NHL careers with Boston during the Orr era? None???
Bowman was a great coach. GOAT??? Idk about that one either…
I think you need to do some homework on both points you made. They were both inaccurate.
I’ll give you a head start.
Bowman has the most wins (by far) and the most Stanley Cups as a coach.
He also has like 8 of the top 10 goal differential teams in league history.
His innovative coaching techniques and strategies created great teams. He’s a hockey genius.
Guess whose coaching strategies the Devils used under Lemaire to win their cups ? Yep. Scotty. Lemaire played for him and knew how dominant that system was.
Skipping to the second part of the question doesn’t make your answer any more correct. …LOL.
You could have put almost any fool behind the bench of those teams and come out with a very similar record. Bowman created a name for himself in Montreal…you’re right. BUT. If he was that great of a coach then why didn’t he stay? I know the answer……
He won in Detroit also.
He utilized the left wing lock against Orr because Orr was so dominant.
Lemaire modified it to a trap which won Cups also.
@Raptormaniacs said:
Again. Orr stood out because the league was crap….
How many HOFers started their NHL careers with Boston during the Orr era? None???
Bowman was a great coach. GOAT??? Idk about that one either…
I think you need to do some homework on both points you made. They were both inaccurate.
I’ll give you a head start.
Bowman has the most wins (by far) and the most Stanley Cups as a coach.
He also has like 8 of the top 10 goal differential teams in league history.
His innovative coaching techniques and strategies created great teams. He’s a hockey genius.
Guess whose coaching strategies the Devils used under Lemaire to win their cups ? Yep. Scotty. Lemaire played for him and knew how dominant that system was.
Skipping to the second part of the question doesn’t make your answer any more correct. …LOL.
You could have put almost any fool behind the bench of those teams and come out with a very similar record. Bowman created a name for himself in Montreal…you’re right. BUT. If he was that great of a coach then why didn’t he stay? I know the answer……
He won in Detroit also.
He utilized the left wing lock against Orr because Orr was so dominant.
Lemaire modified it to a trap which won Cups also.
Both great coaches.
Again. I have never said that Orr or Bowman weren’t great.
Orr GOAT defenceman.
Bowman was a great coach. His Buffalo and Pittsburgh years are proof that he wasn’t all that!!!
@Raptormaniacs said:
Bowman was a great coach. His Buffalo and Pittsburgh years are proof that he wasn’t all that!!!
Pittsburgh? He coached 2 seasons there - won a Stanley Cup and a President's Trophy. And was the GM for the Cup win the year before - when they won the Cup.
Scotty is probably the greatest coach in professional sports history. He coached all, or part of, 30 different seasons with 5 different franchises. He was under .500 exactly once - a 12-game stint with Buffalo. He won 9 Cups with 3 different teams. Teams he coached hold the top four seasons for wins & points.
Doesn't help his coaching legacy any but he also won 5 Cups as an executive, again with 3 different different bringing him to 14 total across 4 different franchises.
Orr came into the league and was rookie of the year and the best defenseman in the league from the age of 18 until he
Being the best defenseman in the NHL at age 18 isn't exactly a compliment on the quality of the league.
To those who say Orr was only good because of poor opponents
Good thing nobody has said that.
But, again, we can't just ignore the stat inflation that occurred for Orr. When he came into the league, it was entirely Canadian and just 6 teams. When he was basically finished in 1975, the league had TRIPLED in size while also adding another entire league of 14 teams. And was still basically entirely Canadian. So more than FIVE times as many teams while not really expanding the pool of available players. Do you REALLY think his numbers weren't impacted at all by that?
Much of the argument in favor of Orr points to the amazing numbers he put up. And, no argument, they WERE incredible. But, c'mon, there were guys playing in the NHL that wouldn't have been AHL players a decade earlier.
, he was, at the end of his career, the best player in the 1976 Canada Cup. Both Bobby Clarke and Darryl Sittler are quoted as saying so.
Nobody has said he wasn't a great player.
Koufax came into the league and for 8 years didn't receive a single Cy Young Award vote. He was great for 3 of the next the next 4 years (although he certainly wasn't much better than Don Drysdale or Juan Marichal), and it wasn't until 1966 that he pitched under a run per game better at home than on the road. Sandy was also great in 1963, but much better at Dodger stadium than on the road.
You're literally making my case for me by agreeing that Koufax had his stats inflated.
Koufax shouldn't really be mentioned in the same comparison with Orr imo. As tremendous of a thrower as he was, he really was only great after struggling for 7 years.
The comparison still holds. Bobby was GREAT for 6 years. Koufax was GREAT for 5. Their stats were both inflated by other circumstances.
@Raptormaniacs said:
Bowman was a great coach. His Buffalo and Pittsburgh years are proof that he wasn’t all that!!!
Pittsburgh? He coached 2 seasons there - won a Stanley Cup and a President's Trophy. And was the GM for the Cup win the year before - when they won the Cup.
Scotty is probably the greatest coach in professional sports history. He coached all, or part of, 30 different seasons with 5 different franchises. He was under .500 exactly once - a 12-game stint with Buffalo. He won 9 Cups with 3 different teams. Teams he coached hold the top four seasons for wins & points.
Doesn't help his coaching legacy any but he also won 5 Cups as an executive, again with 3 different different bringing him to 14 total across 4 different franchises.
Orr came into the league and was rookie of the year and the best defenseman in the league from the age of 18 until he
Being the best defenseman in the NHL at age 18 isn't exactly a compliment on the quality of
Scotty Bowman went to scout 18 year olds in junior who were NHL draft ready.
Scotty said the best player on the ice that night was a 13 ( YES 13) year old Bobby Orr.
Milt Schmidt and others were there and couldn’t believe what they saw.
A 13 year old dominating a 18–21 year old league.
Orr needed a better league to play in said Bobby Clarke. You need to know that no league in our world at that time or in the 80’s or 90’s had the talent to stop him.
Ever hear of a 13 year old being better then 18-21 draft eligible kids playing junior ?
Orr came into the league and was rookie of the year and the best defenseman in the league from the age of 18 until he
Being the best defenseman in the NHL at age 18 isn't exactly a compliment on the quality of the league.
To those who say Orr was only good because of poor opponents
Good thing nobody has said that.
But, again, we can't just ignore the stat inflation that occurred for Orr. When he came into the league, it was entirely Canadian and just 6 teams. When he was basically finished in 1975, the league had TRIPLED in size while also adding another entire league of 14 teams. And was still basically entirely Canadian. So more than FIVE times as many teams while not really expanding the pool of available players. Do you REALLY think his numbers weren't impacted at all by that?
Much of the argument in favor of Orr points to the amazing numbers he put up. And, no argument, they WERE incredible. But, c'mon, there were guys playing in the NHL that wouldn't have been AHL players a decade earlier.
, he was, at the end of his career, the best player in the 1976 Canada Cup. Both Bobby Clarke and Darryl Sittler are quoted as saying so.
Nobody has said he wasn't a great player.
Koufax came into the league and for 8 years didn't receive a single Cy Young Award vote. He was great for 3 of the next the next 4 years (although he certainly wasn't much better than Don Drysdale or Juan Marichal), and it wasn't until 1966 that he pitched under a run per game better at home than on the road. Sandy was also great in 1963, but much better at Dodger stadium than on the road.
You're literally making my case for me by agreeing that Koufax had his stats inflated.
Koufax shouldn't really be mentioned in the same comparison with Orr imo. As tremendous of a thrower as he was, he really was only great after struggling for 7 years.
The comparison still holds. Bobby was GREAT for 6 years. Koufax was GREAT for 5. Their stats were both inflated by other circumstances.
Orr was a top 4 player in the league 95% of the time he played.
Koufax was a top 4 player in the National League 25% of the time he played.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@Raptormaniacs said:
Bowman was a great coach. His Buffalo and Pittsburgh years are proof that he wasn’t all that!!!
Pittsburgh? He coached 2 seasons there - won a Stanley Cup and a President's Trophy. And was the GM for the Cup win the year before - when they won the Cup.
Scotty is probably the greatest coach in professional sports history. He coached all, or part of, 30 different seasons with 5 different franchises. He was under .500 exactly once - a 12-game stint with Buffalo. He won 9 Cups with 3 different teams. Teams he coached hold the top four seasons for wins & points.
Doesn't help his coaching legacy any but he also won 5 Cups as an executive, again with 3 different different bringing him to 14 total across 4 different franchises.
@Raptormaniacs said:
Bowman was a great coach. His Buffalo and Pittsburgh years are proof that he wasn’t all that!!!
Pittsburgh? He coached 2 seasons there - won a Stanley Cup and a President's Trophy. And was the GM for the Cup win the year before - when they won the Cup.
Scotty is probably the greatest coach in professional sports history. He coached all, or part of, 30 different seasons with 5 different franchises. He was under .500 exactly once - a 12-game stint with Buffalo. He won 9 Cups with 3 different teams. Teams he coached hold the top four seasons for wins & points.
Doesn't help his coaching legacy any but he also won 5 Cups as an executive, again with 3 different different bringing him to 14 total across 4 different franchises.
@Raptormaniacs said:
Bowman was a great coach. His Buffalo and Pittsburgh years are proof that he wasn’t all that!!!
Pittsburgh? He coached 2 seasons there - won a Stanley Cup and a President's Trophy. And was the GM for the Cup win the year before - when they won the Cup.
Scotty is probably the greatest coach in professional sports history. He coached all, or part of, 30 different seasons with 5 different franchises. He was under .500 exactly once - a 12-game stint with Buffalo. He won 9 Cups with 3 different teams. Teams he coached hold the top four seasons for wins & points.
Doesn't help his coaching legacy any but he also won 5 Cups as an executive, again with 3 different different bringing him to 14 total across 4 different franchises.
Cherry picking top teams to coach doesn’t make you a great coach….That team should have been the beginning of a dynasty. Instead, they lost to an average (NYI) team. Then, he goes to a very strong Detroit team. Detroit didn’t need him to win those cups….
You can’t cherry pick philosophies…..he was a great coach. Just not a GOAT.
Um....for anyone interested, you can watch countless hours of Orr's games from his rookie year through the entire 1976 Canada Cup. Full games, partial games and multiple hour-plus highlights of goals and assists by season. They're all on YouTube.
Everyone can see him play. Everyone can make their own conclusions.
Cherry picking top teams to coach doesn’t make you a great coach….That team should have been the beginning of a dynasty. Instead, they lost to an average (NYI) team. Then, he goes to a very strong Detroit team. Detroit didn’t need him to win those cups….
Detroit ABSOLUTELY needed him to win those Cups. He rebuilt the roster and changed the playing style.
If he's not the GOAT among NHL coaches, I'm dying to hear your pick over him.
@georgebailey2 said:
Um....for anyone interested, you can watch countless hours of Orr's games from his rookie year through the entire 1976 Canada Cup. Full games, partial games and multiple hour-plus highlights of goals and assists by season. They're all on YouTube.
Everyone can see him play. Everyone can make their own conclusions.
You really don’t need to. The very accurate point shares data, along with the greatest NHL coach’s opinion on the subject should suffice.
Remember. He did this all on one good leg, except for 1969-70 when he was at his best.
Bobby Clarke said he couldn’t get out of bed in the morning when he won MVP in the 76 Canada Cup.
People don’t think like Scotty Bowman or just never saw Orr play if they think otherwise.
Like I said. These guys just never saw it so they don’t know. They can’t understand how someone dominated so much in 8 years so much that no one else could ever equal it.
>
"Everyone can see him play. Everyone can make their own conclusions."
You really don’t need to. The very accurate point shares data, along with the greatest NHL coach’s opinion on the subject should suffice.
These statements appear to be in conflict. Why shouldn't one watch the dozens (perhaps hundreds) of hours of Bobby Orr playing in his prime?
Cherry picking top teams to coach doesn’t make you a great coach….That team should have been the beginning of a dynasty. Instead, they lost to an average (NYI) team. Then, he goes to a very strong Detroit team. Detroit didn’t need him to win those cups….
Detroit ABSOLUTELY needed him to win those Cups. He rebuilt the roster and changed the playing style.
If he's not the GOAT among NHL coaches, I'm dying to hear your pick over him.
Toe Blake and Glen Sather. I put Bowman 3rd.
Bowman rebuilt what roster? What are you even talking about. Take a look at what he was given…LOL. He cherry picked stacked teams….that doesn’t make him a GOAT….he didn’t develop squat.
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I was simply implying that goal differential is a marker for a great team, but not a key statistic in evaluating teams from different years.
High goal differentials result from imbalance. If inclined, I could show scenarios where: a) a couple teams would have high goal differentials where it would not only be obvious that the team with the higher differential wasn't better, but was, in fact worse; and b) a more competitive balance produces lower differentials but shows a team clearly superior to everyone else.
While some have touched on the reasons - which aren't terribly hard to figure out if you're willing to put some thought into it - the 70's, particularly 1975-1978, produced really high disparities between the haves and have nots.
That said, those Canadiens teams were, indeed, some of the finest assembled and may, in fact, be the best ever. However, it can never be proven one way or another. Consequently, it is an opinion with no definitive correct answer, although there may be a strong consensus opinion.
Just stop saying your opinion is fact, particularly when others with significant knowledge and experience have thought about these questions on a deeper multifactorial way.
1985 is "after 1985". Got it.
You're just mad that you said no HOF goalies debuted in the 80s, got proven wrong, moved the goalposts, and got proven wrong again.
1974-1985 means from the beginning of 1974 to the beginning of 1985.
Bruins-Flyers today.
You may need Bernie in net today.
1976 Montreal (9 HOF) and the greatest goal differential ever.
1970 Boston (4 HOF) and the second greatest goal difference ever.
Since 1970 the two best teams ever
by far. Until you show me proof that 3rd and 4th liners from the poor teams in the 70’s were worse then the 3rd and 4th liners from the 80-00’s, I’ll contend for what I believe to be true.
Because of Bobby Orr the Bruins did it in 1970 with 5 less HOFamers.
That was Bobby’s healthiest year in the NHL. He was having knee trouble at age 18.
The NHL always has stars, Super stars, and role players. That will never change.
You and Dallas proved your hockey knowledge about six months ago when he said to you, “I’ll give you that Bobby Orr wasn’t the greatest defensive defenseman ever”.
Absolutely the most funniest thing I ever read here.
Fact. Bowman was the greatest coach ever.
Fact. Besides the 70 Bruins he coached the most dominant teams ever.
Outside of Plante, Harvey, Rocket, Beliveau, Boom Boom and pocket Rocket.
Howe - Sawchuk and company was very powerful.
Orr didn’t have enough support with Espo and Cheevers to beat Plante’s group.
Dryden, Robinson, Lafluer and company would give Orr and Howes teams a rough test. I think Orr at his best in the late 70’s would have helped Boston beat Montreal if he stayed and was healthy.
1950’s Montreal the best ever.
There’s more facts you could learn if you understand him and see why Orr, Howe, Rocket and Mario were better than Wayne.
Try to get to his level and we will understand each other better. Thank you.
1951-1960.
Ten straight Stanley Cup final appearances for the Habs.
Best consistent team ever.
1970’s Montreal
2nd best consistent team ever.
Most dominant also.
These are facts.
Tell me this fact.
Who was the person responsible for the greatest goal scoring decline in NHL history. Easy question.
Then tell me where this all originated and why.
Any deep thinker and student of the game would know this.
2/85 isn't the beginning of 1985? If you're going to just abuse definitions and change meanings, can you just specify exact dates instead?
And yet you're over here touting +/- and ignoring stat inflation from expansion. That's even funnier.
.
NHL talent may be at an all time low.
This Bruins team just beat the Ducks 7-1 and the Flyers 6-0.
Bruins have no Super Stars and just a few HOFamers on it.
It’s ridiculous that they are dominating so much.
I can't stand the Bruins (jealous and snake bitten Leaf fan), but I have to admit, they look unstoppable this year.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
4-1 win at Long Island.
This is getting ridiculous.
3-1 win at MSG.
Two road victories in NY.
I was texting today with my cousin up in Mass. We pretty much only talk sports. He is my hockey guy, so I gave him your theory @Goldenage about teams tanking, and thusly facilitating the Bs record breaking record. He tore your theory apart. I also told him you were arguing that Orr is the GOAT. Before I could go further he said "let me guess, his argument starts with the idea that the league was smaller and less watered down". Lol He did concede that Orr is the "most important" player ever
Hebrews 5:2
😉
Many see hockey differently.
It’s part of life.
Two people can witness the same car accident and claim different perspectives of it.
With wisdom, knowledge, and experience comes perspective.
I’m a Scotty Bowman like thinker.
My guess is your friend is younger then 55.
.....
He is almost 55. I won't go into his credentials but like I said he is my hockey guy. He did agree with you regarding the up and down of the league. Though I was probably misquoting you, so I will ask for some more summary. Orr played through 78. IIRC, you said that the league was better through then and through Gretzky's years. Then down, up, down? I forget.
You and I have something sort of in common when it comes to the Orr as GOAT argument. I think that Bird was the GOAT. Though Orr as GOAT is more in line with Wilt as GOAT, imo. If someone thinks Wilt was GOAT, they will get pushback that Wilt's size and strength (like
Orr's skating) wouldn't translate.More like Orr as GOAT is the same as Sandy Koufax as GOAT. Both dominated for a very short time (Orr won 8 Norris trophies but really "only" dominated for 6 years; Koufax for 5 years, tops) under absolutely ideal conditions that exaggerated their accomplishments (expansion for Orr, expansion/Dodger Stadium/raised mound/enlarged strike zone for Koufax) and their negatives ignored (Orr averaging nearly half a point less against non-expansion teams, Koufax with a career ERA of 1.37 in Dodger Stadium but 3.38 everywhere else). Both were GREAT players at their peak though.
The Orr-Koufax comparison is unjust.
Orr won 8 Norris trophies.
The most ever by any NHL defenseman. So he dominated defensively like no other player in the history of the game.
Orr won two scoring titles.
No other defenseman has EVER done that. So he dominated offensively like no other D man in the history of the game.
He did in 8 years what guys like Lidstrom and Bourque couldn’t do in 20 years.
Think about Koufax winning 8 Cy Young’s in 8 years and no one else ever doing it. That never happened with Koufax. The comparison is unjust.
People don’t think like Scotty Bowman or just never saw Orr play if they think otherwise.
Puck possession in hockey is great defense. No one possessed the puck like Orr. Too fast. Too swift. Couldn’t catch him.
Like I said. These guys just never saw it so they don’t know. They can’t understand how someone dominated so much in 8 years so much that no one else could ever equal it.
He only played one season with great health too. 3 seasons with decent health. The rest no.
How good was Orr in his 750th game? Or his 660th? Didn't play in them?
That's exactly why the comparison is perfect. Orr was an excellent player for 3 years and a GREAT player for 6.
Sandy was a GREAT player for 5.
Which would be great if we were comparing him to Lidstrom and Bourque but we're not.
But since you brought them up - Orr was amazing for 657 games. Lidstrom was amazing for 1560. That's just a little different.
I figured you wouldn't like it. Fact is, both guys were GREAT for very short periods - 6 years for Orr, 5 years for Koufax.
Also, Koufax also didn't have competition like JC Tremblay and 500-year old Tim Horton at his position.
Bowman is hardly infallible.
Yeah, that's kind of how it works when you're playing in an expansion league made up of more than 50% of players who wouldn't have been good enough for the league 5 years earlier. I mean, I suppose it COULD be a coincidence that Bobby's best seasons all came after the NHL doubled in size or after the NHL grew even more while the WHA started. It COULD be but somehow I doubt it.
Irrelevant.
Greatest point shares season ever.
Orr’s best 3 beats Wayne’s best 3.
His next best 2 beats 99’s best 2.
No one dominated like Orr.
He beats 99 by 3 points in a season.
Are any goalies beating other goalies by 3 points ? Dominant 😉
The point shares data explain what Bowman, I, and many others know.
If the difference between Luongo and Parent is three lengths in a horse race, then the difference between Orr and Gretzky is nine lengths.
🐐 Bobby Orr
Again. Orr stood out because the league was crap….
How many HOFers started their NHL careers with Boston during the Orr era? None???
Bowman was a great coach. GOAT??? Idk about that one either…
I think you need to do some homework on both points you made. They were both inaccurate.
I’ll give you a head start.
Bowman has the most wins (by far) and the most Stanley Cups as a coach.
He also has like 8 of the top 10 goal differential teams in league history.
His innovative coaching techniques and strategies created great teams. He’s a hockey genius.
Guess whose coaching strategies the Devils used under Lemaire to win their cups ? Yep. Scotty. Lemaire played for him and knew how dominant that system was.
B's are a WAGON
Skipping to the second part of the question doesn’t make your answer any more correct. …LOL.
You could have put almost any fool behind the bench of those teams and come out with a very similar record. Bowman created a name for himself in Montreal…you’re right. BUT. If he was that great of a coach then why didn’t he stay? I know the answer……
The Orr/Koufax comparison is a poor one.
Orr came into the league and was rookie of the year and the best defenseman in the league from the age of 18 until he was 26 and also top 4 player in league every year with 3 first place (to go with four 3rd place) Hart trophy finishes, after which, he was unable to play because of injury.
To those who say Orr was only good because of poor opponents, he was, at the end of his career, the best player in the 1976 Canada Cup. Both Bobby Clarke and Darryl Sittler are quoted as saying so.
Koufax came into the league and for 8 years didn't receive a single Cy Young Award vote. He was great for 3 of the next the next 4 years (although he certainly wasn't much better than Don Drysdale or Juan Marichal), and it wasn't until 1966 that he pitched under a run per game better at home than on the road. Sandy was also great in 1963, but much better at Dodger stadium than on the road.
Koufax shouldn't really be mentioned in the same comparison with Orr imo. As tremendous of a thrower as he was, he really was only great after struggling for 7 years.
Thank you Joe. I didn’t have the time to address it in full. Thanks
He won in Detroit also.
He utilized the left wing lock against Orr because Orr was so dominant.
Lemaire modified it to a trap which won Cups also.
Both great coaches.
Again. I have never said that Orr or Bowman weren’t great.
Orr GOAT defenceman.
Bowman was a great coach. His Buffalo and Pittsburgh years are proof that he wasn’t all that!!!
Pittsburgh? He coached 2 seasons there - won a Stanley Cup and a President's Trophy. And was the GM for the Cup win the year before - when they won the Cup.
Scotty is probably the greatest coach in professional sports history. He coached all, or part of, 30 different seasons with 5 different franchises. He was under .500 exactly once - a 12-game stint with Buffalo. He won 9 Cups with 3 different teams. Teams he coached hold the top four seasons for wins & points.
Doesn't help his coaching legacy any but he also won 5 Cups as an executive, again with 3 different different bringing him to 14 total across 4 different franchises.
Being the best defenseman in the NHL at age 18 isn't exactly a compliment on the quality of the league.
Good thing nobody has said that.
But, again, we can't just ignore the stat inflation that occurred for Orr. When he came into the league, it was entirely Canadian and just 6 teams. When he was basically finished in 1975, the league had TRIPLED in size while also adding another entire league of 14 teams. And was still basically entirely Canadian. So more than FIVE times as many teams while not really expanding the pool of available players. Do you REALLY think his numbers weren't impacted at all by that?
Much of the argument in favor of Orr points to the amazing numbers he put up. And, no argument, they WERE incredible. But, c'mon, there were guys playing in the NHL that wouldn't have been AHL players a decade earlier.
Nobody has said he wasn't a great player.
You're literally making my case for me by agreeing that Koufax had his stats inflated.
The comparison still holds. Bobby was GREAT for 6 years. Koufax was GREAT for 5. Their stats were both inflated by other circumstances.
This is spot on. Well done.
Scotty Bowman went to scout 18 year olds in junior who were NHL draft ready.
Scotty said the best player on the ice that night was a 13 ( YES 13) year old Bobby Orr.
Milt Schmidt and others were there and couldn’t believe what they saw.
A 13 year old dominating a 18–21 year old league.
Orr needed a better league to play in said Bobby Clarke. You need to know that no league in our world at that time or in the 80’s or 90’s had the talent to stop him.
Ever hear of a 13 year old being better then 18-21 draft eligible kids playing junior ?
It would be like you saying the MLB is weak today if a 120 mph pitcher entered the league and struck out 25 per game and went 35-2.
That’s how fast Orr’s skating was compared to the rest of the league.
He was Secretariat on skates when he was 80-100% healthy.
His 78 opc card says lightning speed
74 opc nailed it. Greatest player in hockey history. OPC saw and knew what Scotty Bowman, Don Cherry, and others saw and knew.
It’s too bad you guys never got to see. Because if you did, you’d know too.
Orr was a top 4 player in the league 95% of the time he played.
Koufax was a top 4 player in the National League 25% of the time he played.
Cherry picking top teams to coach doesn’t make you a great coach….That team should have been the beginning of a dynasty. Instead, they lost to an average (NYI) team. Then, he goes to a very strong Detroit team. Detroit didn’t need him to win those cups….
You can’t cherry pick philosophies…..he was a great coach. Just not a GOAT.
I will ask this question again.
How many Bruin players ended up in the HOF (starting career in Boston) during the Orr years?
Um....for anyone interested, you can watch countless hours of Orr's games from his rookie year through the entire 1976 Canada Cup. Full games, partial games and multiple hour-plus highlights of goals and assists by season. They're all on YouTube.
Everyone can see him play. Everyone can make their own conclusions.
Detroit ABSOLUTELY needed him to win those Cups. He rebuilt the roster and changed the playing style.
If he's not the GOAT among NHL coaches, I'm dying to hear your pick over him.
"Destined to become perhaps" is an awful lot of qualifier to ignore.
The Habs played possum last night.
38-5-4 now.
Bedard would look good in red, white and blue.
All the credit to my Bruins, but this league is embarrassing this year.
Boston +83
Ducks. -83
You really don’t need to. The very accurate point shares data, along with the greatest NHL coach’s opinion on the subject should suffice.
Remember. He did this all on one good leg, except for 1969-70 when he was at his best.
Bobby Clarke said he couldn’t get out of bed in the morning when he won MVP in the 76 Canada Cup.
This is for clarification:> @Goldenage said:
>
"Everyone can see him play. Everyone can make their own conclusions."
These statements appear to be in conflict. Why shouldn't one watch the dozens (perhaps hundreds) of hours of Bobby Orr playing in his prime?
I can provide links.
Toe Blake and Glen Sather. I put Bowman 3rd.
Bowman rebuilt what roster? What are you even talking about. Take a look at what he was given…LOL. He cherry picked stacked teams….that doesn’t make him a GOAT….he didn’t develop squat.
All I hear are crickets….
None ?
Cheevers in 65(before Orr).
Park played 10 games with him but he started in NY.
Who am I forgetting?