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Developing and Managing Expectations- James II 1687 2/6

The coinage from the reign of James II has issues in terms of flecking, haymarking and even striking issues. So this image is an example of developing and appreciating the challenges of finding an example that has "the look" associated with quality for the grade. One can see minimal flecking on the obverse and on the portrait. The reverse is more problematic in terms of haymarking. So my point is one has to often decide what they can and cannot tolerate. But that expectation must be predication on what exists in terms of the surviving population and the challenges associated with late 17th century coinage in England.

So finding a compromise is part of the end result. There is a calculated analysis based on the probability of finding a better example within a budget (I have a budget...and I suspect most of us here do have a budget). And one must have an appreciation for the surviving population based on rarity and condition condition rarity. So will the coin one ultimately buys be that coin that checks all of the boxes in terms of what you want to see in a coin? Not bloody likely... but that does not mean the challenge as well as the search is not worth undertaking.

The image posted is the end result. Feel free to leave a comment

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Comments

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2022 12:02PM

    That is certainly a higher grade piece that mine.

    I took a different approach. I have tried to get a gold coin for each king or queen where I could afford it. So long as you stay away from Mint State pieces and can happy with a VF grade coin, it is financially possible, or at least it was before the big run up for the price gold bullion. The biggest hole I have for a major monarch in Elizabeth I. I had a shot one years ago, but the price was $17.000.

    For Henry IV, it was actually cheaper to buy a decent coin in gold than it was to find one in silver. Dealers would show me absolutely dreadful Henry IV pennies and tell me that they were "a bargain" at only $2,800. :o I later learned that Henry's silver coins were too heavy and were exported to the continent where nearly all of them were melted. That's why they are so hard to find.

    At any rate, here is my James II guinea.


    BTW, I see the term "haymarking." Could you explain what that is? Thank you.

    I also "gun money" to be intriguing, but the examples I have seen for sale seemed to be a bit overpriced.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • John ConduittJohn Conduitt Posts: 350 ✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2022 12:17PM

    Beautiful coin.

    I don't mind haymarking if it's in the right place. It even gives the coin a bit of character. But that's because it's a natural result of the minting process. I've seen two explanations: black flecks caused by tin in the alloy; or following minting, the coins were tossed onto a pile of hay to cool, which, if it ignited, could leave small black pits in the coin.

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,721 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This one graded AU55

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  • ClioClio Posts: 484 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Lovely obverse. The reverse I would struggle some to learn to appreciate. I agree with your assessment of the coinage of his reign, though I don't know how difficult crowns are I have to imagine they are more challenging than shillings and I know I will be looking for a nice shilling for some time to come. Still a very lovely example you have there I think the portrait is just great and would certainly value it for it.

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  • robp2robp2 Posts: 141 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2022 4:50PM

    @BillJones said:

    BTW, I see the term "haymarking." Could you explain what that is? Thank you.

    @JohnConduitt said:
    Beautiful coin.

    I don't mind haymarking if it's in the right place. It even gives the coin a bit of character. But that's because it's a natural result of the minting process. I've seen two explanations: black flecks caused by tin in the alloy; or following minting, the coins were tossed onto a pile of hay to cool, which, if it ignited, could leave small black pits in the coin.

    I don't subscribe to either theory regarding haymarking.

    I think it is down to the respective melting points of copper, silver and gold. Haymarking is much more prevalent on silver than gold which I believe is due to the temperature of the melting pot at the time the coins were struck. The melting points are as follows: Copper 1085 deg.C, Silver 962 deg.C and Gold 1064 deg.C. Copper was the metal used to adjust the bullion to the correct fineness for the coinage in question. Both are roughly 11:1 bullion to copper. So if you take refined silver or gold from the mine, it will need to have the bullion content adjusted down - cue the introduction of copper.

    If you have a pot of silver or gold, then these will melt before the added copper due to their lower melting points. If the temperature of the melting pot is insufficiently above that required for the silver or gold, the added copper will not melt, or at least only partially, leaving flecks of copper suspended in the molten bullion. They didn't have an accurate thermometer at the time, so a melting point a hundred degrees higher than that at which silver melts would require the worker to guess when it reached an adequate temperature. Gold would have been less of a problem being only a 20 degree difference. This I believe is why you rarely find haymarking on gold in comparison to silver.

    Copper (II) oxide is black, and it is this which I believe to be the source of the haymarking. I wasn't there at the time with my accurate thermometer, but this hypothesis would fit in well with the observed, and doesn't require an esoteric explanation.

    As an aside, this Civil war halfcrown is virtually pure copper, which I assume was made from metal from the bottom of the pot. The silver surfaces will have been enhanced by treating with arsenic, which is a well documented procedure.

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