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The 1804 Private restrike Large Cent, a newp with a neat history :)

WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 831 ✭✭✭✭✭

I'm sure a lot of you on this forum know the story behind this coin but for those of you who don't... Here's a little homework for you ;)
From CoinFacts:
"_Today, the 1804 Draped Bust Cent retains its status as a rare and expensive coin, with specimens even in G4 condition trading hands for around $2,350 and XF40 examples claiming $22,500, according to PCGS CoinFacts. The record price for an 1804 Draped Bust Cent is $661,250, which was hammered upon a PCGS MS63BN specimen that crossed the block at a 2009 Goldbergs auction. Surely, the 1804 Draped Bust Cent was comparatively expensive by mid-19th-century standards, pushing at least one enterprising individual to privately restrike examples of this rarity – presumably without the authorization of the United States Mint.

It’s reported the U.S. Mint discarded a load of scrap metal around 1833 that included an 1803 Large Cent obverse die and 1820 Large Cent reverse die, the latter originating during the Coronet Head Cent (1816-1839) series that superseded both the Draped Bust and the Classic Head Cent series (1808-1814). These two dies were muled to create a private restrike issue bearing an 1804 date, an alteration made on the last digit of the date on the 1803 obverse die.

Who masterminded the 1804 Large Cent restrikes and where they were made remains unknown. However, many numismatists believe they were struck around 1860 and may have been the creation of collector Joseph J. Mickley. If the name rings a bell, it’s because Mickley is tied to an iconic piece of numismatic history. He was the second collector to ever buy an 1804 Draped Bust Dollar, accomplishing the feat in a trade with bank teller Henry C. Young around 1858 – some 15 years after Matthew Stickney became the first private collector to 1804 Draped Bust Dollar to claim the coin.

Other venerable numismatists whose names are linked (in hypotheses, anyway) to the 1804 Restrike Cent are coin dealer Edward W. Cogan, and collectors Dr. Montroville W. Dickeson and Captain John W. Haseltine – both of whom were known to have made facsimiles of other coins. Over the years, some numismatic scholars have also suggested the 1804 Restrikes were clandestinely struck at the United States Mint by unscrupulous players – a common situation under the tutelage of United States Mint Director Henry R. Linderman, who held that post from 1867 through 1869 and again from 1873 through 1878.

The mystique behind the dark origins of the 1804 Restrike only helps add to the allure this piece holds for collectors, who now find this pseudo-fantasy coin to be nearly as scarce as the genuine article it emulates. Several varieties exist, including copper pieces and specimens struck on a white metal, with the latter tin pieces proving extraordinarily rare. These restrikes share common major die cracks concentrated in the lower left-hand side of the obverse, with one prominent break running a jagged arc from the rim at approximately the 9 o’clock position down to the rim at the 6 o’clock spot. Other minor die breaks as well as heavy die pitting are evident across the obverse and reverse of the coin._"

."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

Comments

  • cheezhedcheezhed Posts: 5,816 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for sharing!

    Many happy BST transactions
  • WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 831 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2022 2:23PM

    @cheezhed said:
    Thanks for sharing!

    No problem! This one needed it's own thread in my opinion :)
    Too good for just the new purchases thread, though I'll post it over there too...

    ."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,439 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very cool!
    I’ve never seen one that’s circulated.
    Thanks for sharing.

    Successful BST transactions with 171 members. Ebeneezer, Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
  • dunkleosteus430dunkleosteus430 Posts: 471 ✭✭✭✭

    Would that particular piece count as a circulating counterfeit?

    Young Numismatist

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice acquisition... Thanks for the pictures. Cheers, RickO

  • WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 831 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dunkleosteus430 said:
    Would that particular piece count as a circulating counterfeit?

    That is an interesting question! I'm not sure that I know the answer to that question:)
    it would be neat if they were considered genuine legal tender because they were made from genuine dies, but I'm not sure, it says genuine on the PCGS slab....
    Maybe Jack Young @burfle23 would have some more info on these?

    ."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

  • basalstatebasalstate Posts: 71 ✭✭✭

    Very nice!

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,985 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great story, William. One of my favorite in regards to the Large Cent series of coins. Can you imagine if the 1803 obverse die scrapped was of the large date attribute and retaiined the pointed 1. Wow. Love these tidbits of lore and fact. Thanks for posting, very enjoyable read.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WilliamF said:
    This is already a unique coin but this particular example holds an even more unique position than most based on it's grade, PCGS has graded 81 of these and this example is one of only 3 graded below AU53 and is the sole example in VF30, every other one has a higher grade, up to MS67RB, so it has a PCGS pop of 1! :lol:
    These restrikes rarely saw any circulation, they were snapped up by collectors pretty quick, and most surviving pieces are MS, that's what I like so much about this one, is that it actually saw some commerce, this coin is just chock full of history!!
    Comments/criticism welcome! :)

    which set of images more closely/accurately represent the look of the coin in-hand? a rather stark contrast between the 2 sets.

    i ask because if one looks at the RD/RB/BN UNC examples on CF, yours really isn't that far off and the difference between VF and AU58 will MOSTLY boil down to luster/surfaces and the TV makes it look xf/au to me based on comps of other examples BUT i'm only looking at images of an item with a STEEP learning curve to consistently grade, along with many other period fakes, many of which i've owned examples of and/or known someone with some so i could view in-hand and grading these can lead to some decent disagreements, mostly because of poor and inconsistent striking and/or poorly made dies whether engraved or transferred along with intentionally making them look circulated, not too different from the counterfeiters today and probably the same as thousands of years ago. (i read recently some of the ancient collectors can debate pretty strongly authentic vs counterfeit examples, understandably)

    considering most are high grade it would be a better argument for your coin being above vf but i am NOT the grading authority and it is best to do some side-by-side comps.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2022 8:33AM

    here is an example that REALLY shows the surfaces well both the semi-PL look with color toning AND the VERRRRYYYY poor quality of strike/dies. really fun! this is one of those situations where over-exposing the images to capture color shows the details (or lack thereof) quite well and is educational for us to see these horribly wonderful specimens. :D

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 12,206 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice article, thanks to you and those who shared images of these coins.

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

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  • burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Lowest POP is mine!

  • WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 831 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @burfle23 said:
    Lowest POP is mine!

    Wow, love it!
    It seems to me that the grading standards on these restrikes are slightly different than most early copper?
    I would not have thought of G6 for a normal Draped bust cent with that level of wear, especially considering how well defined the denticles are, very interesting!!

    ."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thank you for showing the two circulated pieces. The first one might be a pocket piece, but the second one sure looks like it circulated.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 831 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:

    which set of images more closely/accurately represent the look of the coin in-hand? a rather stark contrast between the 2 sets.

    i ask because if one looks at the RD/RB/BN UNC examples on CF, yours really isn't that far off and the difference between VF and AU58 will MOSTLY boil down to luster/surfaces and the TV makes it look xf/au to me based on comps of other examples BUT i'm only looking at images of an item with a STEEP learning curve to consistently grade, along with many other period fakes, many of which i've owned examples of and/or known someone with some so i could view in-hand and grading these can lead to some decent disagreements, mostly because of poor and inconsistent striking and/or poorly made dies whether engraved or transferred along with intentionally making them look circulated, not too different from the counterfeiters today and probably the same as thousands of years ago. (i read recently some of the ancient collectors can debate pretty strongly authentic vs counterfeit examples, understandably)

    considering most are high grade it would be a better argument for your coin being above vf but i am NOT the grading authority and it is best to do some side-by-side comps.

    The darker set of pics (not the TV) are more true to what it actually looks like in hand, you're right about the difference between grades, and if you just go based on the TrueView it actually appears to be at least XF, but not so much in hand.
    Early copper is tough, but this restrike is super tough, because of the weak strike from the incredibly worn discarded dies which were used, it's really hard to tell how much of the lack of details is due to the worn dies and what is actually wear...
    I consider myself pretty good at grading early copper but this is another level :open_mouth:;)

    ."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

  • EddiEddi Posts: 505 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is a very interesting thread about an interesting issue You have a nice example there! Thank you for posting.

    Concerning the possibility some examples (yours included) may have actually circulated: Since it is presumed to have been struck around 1860, is it realistic to assume that it circulated at a time when small cents had made their appearance, and large cents had been withdrawn in 1857?

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2022 6:05AM

    @CaptHenway said:
    Thank you for showing the two circulated pieces. The first one might be a pocket piece, but the second one sure looks like it circulated.

    w/o me going through all the other threads, of which i am sure there are many in the archives, what is this supposed to be exactly a restrike of?

    the obv doesn't match the 1804 1c obverse and certainly not the reverse. not even close.

    the date looks like JUST a standard counterfeit to these old eyes.

    seems like privately struck would be more apropos?

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 831 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    Thank you for showing the two circulated pieces. The first one might be a pocket piece, but the second one sure looks like it circulated.

    w/o me going through all the other threads, of which i am sure there are many in the archives, what is this supposed to be exactly a restrike of?

    the obv doesn't match the 1804 1c obverse and certainly not the reverse. not even close.

    the date looks like JUST a standard counterfeit to these old eyes.

    seems like privately struck would be more apropos?

    I believe it is considered to be a restrike solely based on the date, the obverse design is struck using a discarded die from 1803 (they just replaced the last digit with a rather crude 4...) and the reverse die was a Coronet cent from the 1820's.
    Technically it is considered to be a mule based on the die pairing, theres so much going on with this coin, its obvious that somebody was doing some wierd things :lol:

    ."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

  • WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 831 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Eddi said:
    This is a very interesting thread about an interesting issue You have a nice example there! Thank you for posting.

    Concerning the possibility some examples (yours included) may have actually circulated: Since it is presumed to have been struck around 1860, is it realistic to assume that it circulated at a time when small cents had made their appearance, and large cents had been withdrawn in 1857?

       
    

    I think that is a good assumption, it is thought that many large cents circulated up into the early 1870s, so this certainly could have circulated for a bit.
    Another possibility as @CaptHenway suggested, is that it was a pocket piece for a while, no way to know for sure but either way it is interesting as most of these are found in Mint State or AU.

    ."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WilliamF said:
    I believe it is considered to be a restrike solely based on the date, the obverse design is struck using a discarded die from 1803 (they just replaced the last digit with a rather crude 4...) and the reverse die was a Coronet cent from the 1820's.
    Technically it is considered to be a mule based on the die pairing, theres so much going on with this coin, its obvious that somebody was doing some wierd things :lol:

    off to look at 1803 marriages it is!

    i know i/we've been through this before but since i have seen that pcgs DOES eventually get around to updating erroneous/outdated info based on more recent study/evidence, since one of these has been posted again, guess i'll tear into it a bit but not too much as it is plainly obvious this thing is a chimera. more for the sake of study/conversation and a lil accuracy?

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    so a quick glace shows that if this is an authentic "known" 1803 obv die, the only marriages i see where the T in liberty is behind the front hair are on marriage(s) where the bottom right serifs are missing on TY which this coin does not exhibit. ok, they worked on the die(s) some, no argument here BUT the serifs on the private issue here seems to be perfect, which i would extrapolate they did NOT re-engrave. it looks too good and we see their quality of handy work at the date.

    also, i have a bit of an issue with the 0 in the date. obviously they "recut" the 8 and 3 at least so stands to reason they tinkered with the other digits too but that 0 kinda looks unmolested and it is NOT the natural shape of the 0s on authentic examples. it (kinda) reminds me of the 56 large cent or the 57 obv of 56 with that square inside 0 of OF.

    so you can take away what you will but i'd LOVE to hear a true EAC expert confrim this obv die, even being so mangled, truly matches a known obv die.

    disclaimer: i did NOT check the NCs (yet)

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2022 3:07PM

    1803 S-261 obverse die...

    Known at a glance B) !

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2022 3:37PM

    @burfle23 said:
    1803 S-261 obverse die...

    Known at a glance B) !

    that one sure seems to be the closest, especially liberty but the I in liberty bottom left serif is a lil iffy and when the dates are blown up the 0 is still highly questionable and the distance from the ball serif part of the 3 looks too far away from the 0, even with the 4 recut over the top.

    good work on pointing out that liberty that does have the serifs and matching position in conjunction to the front hair that 261 has. :+1:

    the date has the same position it looks like as well, for the most part.

    well after looking at the example i posted above, it is CLEAR as day the full date WAS recut. WOW

    and that as they say, is that. :o


    .
    .
    .
    a script 8 OVER a regular 8. what a sight!
    .
    .

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • NeophyteNumismatistNeophyteNumismatist Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭✭

    very cool restrict, congrats!

    I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.

  • NeophyteNumismatistNeophyteNumismatist Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭✭

    of course I meant restrike - auto correct. Not sure how to edit posts :)

    I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.

  • WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 831 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @NeophyteNumismatist said:
    of course I meant restrike - auto correct. Not sure how to edit posts :)

    Little gear icon in the top right of each post :)

    ."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

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