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Proposed H.R.9157 - To define the dollar as a fixed weight of gold, and for other purposes

GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,563 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited October 10, 2022 12:09PM in Precious Metals

Here is a proposal by WV Senator Alexander Mooney. No chance it will pass, but a concept for some.
(Accesswire - 10/09/22)

Rep. Alex Mooney proposes the United States adopt a new gold standard after U.S. government officials first disclose all gold holdings and secret gold transactions, allowing the gold price to adjust to its fair market value.

WASHINGTON, DC / ACCESSWIRE / October 9, 2022 / America's currency would regain stable footing for the first time in half a century if a bill just introduced by U.S. Representative Alex Mooney (R-WV) becomes law.

Referred to as the "Gold Standard Restoration Act" by sound money activists, H.R. 9157 calls for the repegging of the Federal Reserve note to gold in order to address the ongoing problems of inflation, runaway federal debt, and monetary system instability.

Upon passage of H.R. 9157, the U.S. Treasury and the Federal Reserve would have 30 months to publicly disclose all gold holdings and gold transactions, after which time the Federal Reserve note "dollar" would be pegged to a fixed weight of gold at its then-market price.

Federal Reserve notes would become fully redeemable for and exchangeable with gold at the new fixed price, with the U.S. Treasury and its gold reserves backstopping Federal Reserve Banks as guarantor.

"The gold standard would protect against Washington's irresponsible spending habits and the creation of money out of thin air," said Rep. Mooney in a statement.

"Prices would be shaped by economics rather than the instincts of bureaucrats. No longer would our economy be at the mercy of the Federal Reserve and reckless Washington spenders."

The Gold Standard Restoration Act also makes several findings as to the harm the Federal Reserve System has inflicted on everyday Americans - particularly since President Richard Nixon "temporarily suspended" gold backing of America's monetary system in 1971.

H.R. 9157 points out the following: "The Federal Reserve note has lost more than 30 percent of its purchasing power since 2000, and 97 percent of its purchasing power since the passage of the Federal Reserve Act in 1913."

Economists have observed that the elimination of gold redeemability from the monetary system freed central bankers and federal government officials from accountability when they irresponsibly expand the money supply, fund government deficits though trillion-dollar bond purchases, or otherwise manipulate the economy.

"At times, including 2021 and 2022, Federal Reserve actions helped create inflation rates of 8 percent or higher, increasing the cost of living for many Americans to untenable levels…enrich[ing] the owners of financial assets while… endanger[ing] the jobs, wages, and savings of blue-collar workers," H.R. 9157 states.

Notably, Rep. Mooney's bill would also require full disclosure of all central bank and U.S. government gold holdings and gold-related financial transactions over the last 6 decades - a seemingly taboo subject surrounded by mystery and deception.

"To enable the market and market participants to arrive at the fixed Federal Reserve Note dollar-gold parity in an orderly fashion… the Treasury Secretary and the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve shall each make publicly available… all holdings of gold, with a report of any purchases, sales, leases, and any other financial transactions involving gold, since the temporary suspension in August 15th, 1971, of gold redeemability obligations under the Bretton Woods Agreement of 1944."

Furthermore, H.R. 9157 requires the Fed and the Treasury to disclose "all records pertaining to redemptions and transfers of United States gold in the 10 years preceding the temporary suspension in August 15, 1971, of gold redeemability obligations."

"Today's debt-based fiat-money system serves primarily to support big government and wealthy financial insiders - while the Federal Reserve's serial policy of currency debasement punishes savers and wage earners as it undermines the economy," explained Stefan Gleason, President of the Sound Money Defense League and Money Metals Exchange.

"A return to gold redeemability would arrest the problem of inflation, restrain the growth of wasteful and inefficient government, and kick off an exciting new era of American prosperity," Gleason concluded.

The full text of Rep. Mooney's gold standard bill was introduced on October 7, 2022, and referred to the House Committee on Financial Services.

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Comments

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,760 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If there is no chance of it passing, we ought to replace some elected people. Like those who would stymie growth and prosperity and common sense thinking which gives the people what is rightfully ours.
    An honest days wage for an honest day's work. That's easy enough. It's about a buck.

  • tincuptincup Posts: 4,722 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The government giving up it's smoke and mirrors? Revealing the man behind the curtain pulling the levers? Fiscal responsibility?

    Not much chance of it happening... but I like it!

    ----- kj
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It certainly would be an interesting development.... Unlikely to happen though, and if it did, the blinding glare of light, exposing past financial shenanigans, could topple the government. IMO
    Cheers, RickO

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,760 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ricko said:
    It certainly would be an interesting development.... Unlikely to happen though, and if it did, the blinding glare of light, exposing past financial shenanigans, could topple the government. IMO
    Cheers, RickO

    The government can wipe out debt with the stroke of a pen. They raise the debt ceiling and dig holes with the same ink.

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,297 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Debt is just some digits on a computer screen. Wiped out with the click of a mouse. RGDS!

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,900 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @blitzdude said:
    Debt is just some digits on a computer screen. Wiped out with the click of a mouse. RGDS!

    Inflation is the result of doing that.
    So, obviously, that is what has been happening.

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭✭

    I don't know why he thinks we haven't dislosed all gold holdings and why/how there are any "secret" gold transactions. There aren't.

    We went through this in the 1970's and Ron Paul and other gold bugs personally saw the storage of the gold at Fort Knox and the NY Federal Reserve Bank.

    I'm as nostalgic as anyone for the good old days....but a gold standard today simply won't work in an era of external economic adjustments via free-floating exchange rates and other non-internal adjustment mechanisms to economic dislocations and exogenous events. The Covid pandemic is the most recent example -- imagine if the Fed were constrained 3 years ago.

    Or look at the internal adjustment problems faced by Euro countries like Greece and Italy. Austerity can be a bitch. :)

  • ExbritExbrit Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭✭

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    We went through this in the 1970's and Ron Paul and other gold bugs personally saw the storage of the gold at Fort Knox and the NY Federal Reserve Bank.

    1970s? Who currently audits the U.S. Holdings? GAO? I don’t think so.

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2023 2:14PM

    @Exbrit said:

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    We went through this in the 1970's and Ron Paul and other gold bugs personally saw the storage of the gold at Fort Knox and the NY Federal Reserve Bank.

    1970s? Who currently audits the U.S. Holdings? GAO? I don’t think so.

    Why do we need an audit ? The gold has largely been untouched since 1937 sitting in the Fort Knox Bullion Depository with smaller holdings at The NY Federal Reserve Bank.

    You think someone with my name managed to make off with the gold ? :)

  • ExbritExbrit Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭✭

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @Exbrit said:

    Why do we need an audit ? The gold has largely been untouched since 1937 sitting in the Fort Knox Bullion Depository with smaller holdings at The NY Federal Reserve Bank.

    >

    How do you know if it’s still there unless there is an audit? It wouldn’t be the first time the government played games.

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I can only imagine the havoc that changing to a gold standard would have on the debt-based monetary model.

    As much as the financial geniuses would like to keep the debt-based system going, it’s not going to last much longer.

    I can’t imagine any of tptb big time players going along with a gold standard, or any system that would require accountability. Who really knows how this will all shake out?

    Got chickens? Blitzie does, and I’ve gotta hand it to him on that one!

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭✭

    @Exbrit said:

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @Exbrit said:

    Why do we need an audit ? The gold has largely been untouched since 1937 sitting in the Fort Knox Bullion Depository with smaller holdings at The NY Federal Reserve Bank.

    >

    How do you know if it’s still there unless there is an audit? It wouldn’t be the first time the government played games.

    Where would it be ? What government "games" involved theft ?

  • ExbritExbrit Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭✭

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @Exbrit said:

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @Exbrit said:

    Why do we need an audit ? The gold has largely been untouched since 1937 sitting in the Fort Knox Bullion Depository with smaller holdings at The NY Federal Reserve Bank.

    >

    How do you know if it’s still there unless there is an audit? It wouldn’t be the first time the government played games.

    Where would it be ? What government "games" involved theft ?

    Theft is a word I would NOT use. Use of gold to fund certain activities. The government conducts audits all the time on accountable property. Shouldn’t the nation’s gold holdings be accountable?

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭✭

    @Exbrit said:

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @Exbrit said:

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @Exbrit said:

    Why do we need an audit ? The gold has largely been untouched since 1937 sitting in the Fort Knox Bullion Depository with smaller holdings at The NY Federal Reserve Bank.

    >

    How do you know if it’s still there unless there is an audit? It wouldn’t be the first time the government played games.

    Where would it be ? What government "games" involved theft ?

    Theft is a word I would NOT use. Use of gold to fund certain activities. The government conducts audits all the time on accountable property. Shouldn’t the nation’s gold holdings be accountable?

    I think we know how much gold we have. The World Gold Council among others verifies all Central Bank holdings.

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think we know how much gold we have. The World Gold Council among others verifies all Central Bank holdings

    Without any audit, no way.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,508 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2023 5:20PM

    @Exbrit said:

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @Exbrit said:

    Why do we need an audit ? The gold has largely been untouched since 1937 sitting in the Fort Knox Bullion Depository with smaller holdings at The NY Federal Reserve Bank.

    >

    How do you know if it’s still there unless there is an audit? It wouldn’t be the first time the government played games.

    Would it matter if it was there or not? If it was announced tonight that there was no gold, how would.your life be different tomorrow?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • ExbritExbrit Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:

    @Exbrit said:

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @Exbrit said:

    Why do we need an audit ? The gold has largely been untouched since 1937 sitting in the Fort Knox Bullion Depository with smaller holdings at The NY Federal Reserve Bank.

    >

    How do you know if it’s still there unless there is an audit? It wouldn’t be the first time the government played games.

    Would it matter if it was there or not?

    You should ask the central banks that question.

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,508 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Exbrit said:

    @cohodk said:

    @Exbrit said:

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @Exbrit said:

    Why do we need an audit ? The gold has largely been untouched since 1937 sitting in the Fort Knox Bullion Depository with smaller holdings at The NY Federal Reserve Bank.

    >

    How do you know if it’s still there unless there is an audit? It wouldn’t be the first time the government played games.

    Would it matter if it was there or not?

    You should ask the central banks that question.

    I'm asking you,

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • ExbritExbrit Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2023 4:01AM

    @cohodk said:

    @Exbrit said:

    @cohodk said:

    @Exbrit said:

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @Exbrit said:

    Why do we need an audit ? The gold has largely been untouched since 1937 sitting in the Fort Knox Bullion Depository with smaller holdings at The NY Federal Reserve Bank.

    >

    How do you know if it’s still there unless there is an audit? It wouldn’t be the first time the government played games.

    Would it matter if it was there or not?

    You should ask the central banks that question.

    I'm asking you,

    It would not affect me until someone wanted payment on our debts in something other than dollars or more precisely when the faith in the dollar no longer exists. Physical vs. hot air. Back to the point - how my life would be affected has nothing to do with auditing something of value. Why audit anything?

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,508 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2023 4:12AM

    @Exbrit said:

    @cohodk said:

    @Exbrit said:

    @cohodk said:

    @Exbrit said:

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @Exbrit said:

    Why do we need an audit ? The gold has largely been untouched since 1937 sitting in the Fort Knox Bullion Depository with smaller holdings at The NY Federal Reserve Bank.

    >

    How do you know if it’s still there unless there is an audit? It wouldn’t be the first time the government played games.

    Would it matter if it was there or not?

    You should ask the central banks that question.

    I'm asking you,

    It would not affect me until someone wanted payment on our debts in something other than dollars or more precisely when the faith in the dollar no longer exists. Physical vs. hot air.

    That someone would be asking to breach contract. They can "want" anything but they would receive dollars.

    The central bank of New Zealand has no gold, yet its citizens seem to be doing well. Canada and Norway also have no gold.

    Is faith in the dollar based on whether or not there is gold in a bunker somewhere?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • ExbritExbrit Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:

    @Exbrit said:

    @cohodk said:

    @Exbrit said:

    @cohodk said:

    @Exbrit said:

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @Exbrit said:

    Why do we need an audit ? The gold has largely been untouched since 1937 sitting in the Fort Knox Bullion Depository with smaller holdings at The NY Federal Reserve Bank.

    >

    How do you know if it’s still there unless there is an audit? It wouldn’t be the first time the government played games.

    Would it matter if it was there or not?

    You should ask the central banks that question.

    I'm asking you,

    It would not affect me until someone wanted payment on our debts in something other than dollars or more precisely when the faith in the dollar no longer exists. Physical vs. hot air.

    That someone would be asking to breach contract. They can "want" anything but they would receive dollars.

    The central bank of New Zealand has no gold, yet its citizens seem to be doing well. Canada and Norway also have no gold.

    Is faith in the dollar based on whether or not there is gold in a bunker somewhere?

    The point is auditing something of value - not the argument of faith in the dollar. But going down that road a bit further - Tell me why central banks stock up on gold? Especially in times of turmoil.

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,508 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Exbrit said:

    @cohodk said:

    @Exbrit said:

    @cohodk said:

    @Exbrit said:

    @cohodk said:

    @Exbrit said:

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @Exbrit said:

    Why do we need an audit ? The gold has largely been untouched since 1937 sitting in the Fort Knox Bullion Depository with smaller holdings at The NY Federal Reserve Bank.

    >

    How do you know if it’s still there unless there is an audit? It wouldn’t be the first time the government played games.

    Would it matter if it was there or not?

    You should ask the central banks that question.

    I'm asking you,

    It would not affect me until someone wanted payment on our debts in something other than dollars or more precisely when the faith in the dollar no longer exists. Physical vs. hot air.

    That someone would be asking to breach contract. They can "want" anything but they would receive dollars.

    The central bank of New Zealand has no gold, yet its citizens seem to be doing well. Canada and Norway also have no gold.

    Is faith in the dollar based on whether or not there is gold in a bunker somewhere?

    The point is auditing something of value - not the argument of faith in the dollar. But going down that road a bit further - Tell me why central banks stock up on gold? Especially in times of turmoil.

    You are one who brought up faith in the dollar.

    The answer to your question....to make it easier to deal with economic sanctions. Which countries have been adding to reserves? Russia and China.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • ExbritExbrit Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2023 8:35AM

    Not just to skirt sanctions, but close enough - now back to my original comment on the need for audits…

  • HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,133 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ignoring the audit issue, but assuming the gold is there (which is a good assumption), I personally would be in favor of keeping it; when officials at the Treasury or Fed are asked why we keep it, the answer is usually a rather vague "just in case".

    I would elaborate on this a little by saying the following:

    (a) it is a virtual certainty that the role of the dollar in global finance will gradually continue to decrease
    (b) barring some global catastrophe (or, in the aftermath of such a catastrophe), it is likely that global trade, finance, and payment arrangements will be reinvented; this might involve a global consensus, and might involve multiple spheres of influence.
    (c) in any case, even though it is profoundly unlikely that we would return to a gold standard, it is not out of the question that gold could play a role in the new arrangement; in such a case, it almost certainly better that we have the gold than that we don't have the gold.
    (d) if the other option is selling the gold, compared to the size of our economy and our debt, the value of our holdings are a pittance; selling in an open market would of course greatly depress prices. (the ultimate manipulation :) ) It's hard to see any real upside related to disposing of it. In Canada's case, it is nice to hear them speaking with confidence about global institutions, and discounting the value of holding gold. At they same, it is a fairly easy position for them to take, given Canada's very high per capita gold production.

    Higashiyama
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,508 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2023 6:12PM

    Since there was so much silence to my previous question, so how about this one. If there was an audit and the gold was there, how would your life be changed?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,133 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk: regarding the earlier question, if an audit found the gold was not there, I would question my sanity.

    Higashiyama
  • BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 7,826 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:

    @Exbrit said:

    @cohodk said:

    @Exbrit said:

    @cohodk said:

    @Exbrit said:

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @Exbrit said:

    Why do we need an audit ? The gold has largely been untouched since 1937 sitting in the Fort Knox Bullion Depository with smaller holdings at The NY Federal Reserve Bank.

    >

    How do you know if it’s still there unless there is an audit? It wouldn’t be the first time the government played games.

    Would it matter if it was there or not?

    You should ask the central banks that question.

    I'm asking you,

    It would not affect me until someone wanted payment on our debts in something other than dollars or more precisely when the faith in the dollar no longer exists. Physical vs. hot air.

    That someone would be asking to breach contract. They can "want" anything but they would receive dollars.

    The central bank of New Zealand has no gold, yet its citizens seem to be doing well. Canada and Norway also have no gold.

    Is faith in the dollar based on whether or not there is gold in a bunker somewhere?

    Two questions. How do we know they have no gold? And if they did at one time where did it go?

    Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
  • BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 7,826 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:

    @Exbrit said:

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @Exbrit said:

    Why do we need an audit ? The gold has largely been untouched since 1937 sitting in the Fort Knox Bullion Depository with smaller holdings at The NY Federal Reserve Bank.

    >

    How do you know if it’s still there unless there is an audit? It wouldn’t be the first time the government played games.

    Would it matter if it was there or not? If it was announced tonight that there was no gold, how would.your life be different tomorrow?

    Probably only if they decided to confiscate all privately held gold. Coins etc.

    Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,508 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2023 4:37AM

    @BLUEJAYWAY said:

    @cohodk said:

    @Exbrit said:

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @Exbrit said:

    Why do we need an audit ? The gold has largely been untouched since 1937 sitting in the Fort Knox Bullion Depository with smaller holdings at The NY Federal Reserve Bank.

    >

    How do you know if it’s still there unless there is an audit? It wouldn’t be the first time the government played games.

    Would it matter if it was there or not? If it was announced tonight that there was no gold, how would.your life be different tomorrow?

    Probably only if they decided to confiscate all privately held gold. Coins etc.

    Who would do the confiscation and how would that be enforced?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,297 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Oh I don't think anyone needs to be worried about the boogie man coming to take all our gold. That's so 1930's. RGDS!

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,760 ✭✭✭✭✭

    funny how history is.

    gold being money, that is.

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "oh, it could never happen here"

    It's amazing that anyone could say that anymore. Look around and ask yourself how many things that couldn't ever happen have already happened.

    And none of them are good things.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,133 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52: I almost agree with you there; one big difference between now and 1933 is that no one would comply.

    Higashiyama
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2023 1:10PM

    @Higashiyama: You might believe so, but isn't that what everyone thought before the vaccine mandates were imposed, for example? (as it's now being mandated in Brazil)

    Another example - CBDCs present another serious dilemma for anyone who doesn't want to have all of their transactions tracked by gov.com, and their lives dictated down to their social credit score. (as has been implemented in China)

    But you don't think that they can make it uncomfortable (or illegal) to own gold? FDR set the precedent. You don't think that you'd comply?

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,508 ✭✭✭✭✭

    .

    @jmski52 said:
    "oh, it could never happen here"

    It's amazing that anyone could say that anymore. Look around and ask yourself how many things that couldn't ever happen have already happened.

    And none of them are good things.

    One could easily argue that almost everything that has happened before. Just because something didn't happen in YOUR lifetime, doesn't mean it, or something very similar, hasn't happened previously.

    Again, would do the confiscation and how would it be enforced?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 7,826 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:

    @BLUEJAYWAY said:

    @cohodk said:

    @Exbrit said:

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @Exbrit said:

    Why do we need an audit ? The gold has largely been untouched since 1937 sitting in the Fort Knox Bullion Depository with smaller holdings at The NY Federal Reserve Bank.

    >

    How do you know if it’s still there unless there is an audit? It wouldn’t be the first time the government played games.

    Would it matter if it was there or not? If it was announced tonight that there was no gold, how would.your life be different tomorrow?

    Probably only if they decided to confiscate all privately held gold. Coins etc.

    Who would do the confiscation and how would that be enforced?

    Don't know. Do you have any ideas? Still trying to ascertain why those counties you noted have no gold.

    Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,508 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BLUEJAYWAY said:

    @cohodk said:

    @BLUEJAYWAY said:

    @cohodk said:

    @Exbrit said:

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @Exbrit said:

    Why do we need an audit ? The gold has largely been untouched since 1937 sitting in the Fort Knox Bullion Depository with smaller holdings at The NY Federal Reserve Bank.

    >

    How do you know if it’s still there unless there is an audit? It wouldn’t be the first time the government played games.

    Would it matter if it was there or not? If it was announced tonight that there was no gold, how would.your life be different tomorrow?

    Probably only if they decided to confiscate all privately held gold. Coins etc.

    Who would do the confiscation and how would that be enforced?

    Don't know. Do you have any ideas? Still trying to ascertain why those counties you noted have no gold.

    There would be no confiscation.

    Gold is not as important or valuable as many other things, especially things that have utilty.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • ExbritExbrit Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭✭

    If you took your pulse and you had one - how would your life change? Same answer.
    Things work until they don’t - then what?

    So if gold has no meaning - why do the central banks go to great length to obtain and store it?

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2023 7:07AM

    There is a reason that the U.S. dollar is the global reserve financial currency and is not likely to be displaced anytime soon, boys. It's one that you don't read about but one which I and others have dealt with for years and decades who've managed large sums of money.

    In order to custodian the wealth of Central Banks....Sovereign Wealth Funds.....pension plans....large institutions.....investment funds....The Super Rich....etc....you need to have LIQUIDITY and the RULE OF LAW behind your investments. With small exceptions, only the U.S. financial markets can handle these tasks.

    The most liquid financial markets in the world are the U.S. Treasury market (about $550 billion daily traded) and the U.S. Mortgaged Backed Securities (MBS) market at about $350 billion traded daily. These are pretty much THE ONLY markets that can handle large inflows of money on short notice.

    You're a CB or SWF or wealthy billionaire. You want to park some money for a weekend plus a few days longer in ultra-safe investments. Do you think you can move $10 billion or $20 billion a few hours before the Fed Wire deadline of 3 PM hits that you can do this with British Gilts or French Oats or Euro-denominated bonds ? No, you can't.

    Chinese Yuan ? Don't make me laugh. I'd rather give my money to those guys The Joker interrupted counting their money in "The Dark Knight." :) NOBODY is parking safe $$$ with the Chinese Communist Party which is what you are investing with when you give money to the PBOC. NOBODY thinks that wiring money to the Federal Reserve Bank of NY's System Open Market account is akin to giving it to the Republican or Democratic parties.

    Add it all up and the United States is not likely to have a currency problem anytime soon. I would remind all of you that Greece, a 3rd-rate economy, needed 30 years for its Socialist policies to implode once they were the victims of the Euro in 2010 and 2011. We'll all be dead by the time the U.S. has similar problems unless we start implenting market-unfriendly idiocies like taxes on stock buybacks, surtaxes, etc.

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭✭

    @Exbrit said:
    If you took your pulse and you had one - how would your life change? Same answer.
    Things work until they don’t - then what?

    So if gold has no meaning - why do the central banks go to great length to obtain and store it?

    Because they can use it for domestic purposes and nobody will lose their jobs if gold goes down in price as opposed to buying the Euro before the EU implodes or the Yuan when the CCP gates withdrawls and imposes capital controls.

    But buyers of gold probably are buying because they see the next $1,000 as UP and not down. :)

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    But you don't think that they can make it uncomfortable (or illegal) to own gold? FDR set the precedent. You don't think that you'd comply?

    Looking at the Supreme Court cases of the 1930's and comparing it to the 1952 Truman-Steel Companies debate, I'm surprised it passed muster back then, especially seizures without compensation (what happened to the Constitution?).

    I doubt you'd get to 1st base legally today if a President or even Congress tried to mandate turning in one's gold, certainly without "just" compensation.

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2023 7:15AM

    Holdings of gold have nothing to do with how your economy or your monetary policy is doing. To an extent, they are relics from a distant era, I agree.

    But for strategic purposes, and as a show of "central bank fidelity to fighting inflation and defending the currency" gold holdings serve a purpose. It might be OVERSTATED or merely SYMBOLIC but it still serves a purpose. Our gold holdings in the U.S. relative to the monetary aggregates have fallen substantially and NOBODY tracks it, not even commentators on the financial channels.

    But if the U.S. announced tomorrow they are selling off the gold in Fort Knox there'd be an uproar, of that I have no doubt. :)

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,031 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2023 8:01AM

    they will move the gold goal post periodically with legislation just as they do the debt ceiling.

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,508 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Exbrit said:
    If you took your pulse and you had one - how would your life change? Same answer.
    Things work until they don’t - then what?

    So if gold has no meaning - why do the central banks go to great length to obtain and store it?

    I'm assuming from you "checking pulse" comment that you believe if there was no gold then we'd all be dead?

    Many counties have none or very little gold. I did not say it has "no meaning".

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • ExbritExbrit Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:

    @Exbrit said:
    If you took your pulse and you had one - how would your life change? Same answer.
    Things work until they don’t - then what?

    So if gold has no meaning - why do the central banks go to great length to obtain and store it?

    I'm assuming from you "checking pulse" comment that you believe if there was no gold then we'd all be dead?

    Many counties have none or very little gold. I did not say it has "no meaning".

    No - what I am saying is that the world powers and individuals alike consider gold as a safe haven and something of value and that since the government is supposed to be We the People, then it is something that needs to be checked from time to time to ensure it hasn’t been misused. Our lives would not be affected wether it’s there or not unless someone starts refusing to take the mighty dollar.

    Funny how assumptions go.

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,508 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Exbrit said:

    Our lives would not be affected wether it’s there or not unless someone starts refusing to take the mighty dollar.

    Yay!!! A straight answer..mostly.

    An audit would only placate a few barbarous relics. Faith in the dollar does not rely on US gold holdings.

    What if there was an audit and it was discovered that the US had MORE gold than assumed?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • ExbritExbrit Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:

    @Exbrit said:

    Our lives would not be affected wether it’s there or not unless someone starts refusing to take the mighty dollar.

    Yay!!! A straight answer..mostly.

    An audit would only placate a few barbarous relics. Faith in the dollar does not rely on US gold holdings.

    What if there was an audit and it was discovered that the US had MORE gold than assumed?

    Always straight answers. I agree faith in the dollar does not rely on gold specifically, but it does help. Why do you think governments (major) own it? All that expense to secure it why? Sanctions are only a small part of it. Why the bother? If an audit discovered more gold in our holdings, then our position would be stronger. Why do you think major war debts were paid in gold?

  • ExbritExbrit Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:

    @Exbrit said:

    Our lives would not be affected wether it’s there or not unless someone starts refusing to take the mighty dollar.

    Yay!!! A straight answer..mostly.

    An audit would only placate a few barbarous relics. Faith in the dollar does not rely on US gold holdings.

    What if there was an audit and it was discovered that the US had MORE gold than assumed?

    So how about a straight answer from you? Why then does the U.S. go to the trouble and vast expense of storing the largest gold holding in the world? And it has nothing, or very little, to do with sanctions.

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Faith in the dollar has been coasting on the strength of the post-WW2 US economy and military predominance, i.e., Bretton Woods. That predominance has been undermined since 1971 and budget deficit financing of wars and social program freebies since then are all wrecking what was established back then.

    Nobody seems to be willing to answer the simple question of why the gov't supposedly still owns 8 tons of gold but won't do an audit. So much secrecy for something that seemingly isn't that important, while the Europeans want their gold back and most other major countries are accumulating PMs in a serious way.

    Deficit financing, fiat money creation, zero reserve requirements for banks along with fractional reserve lending - it's all part of one big ponzi for the benefit of the few.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2023 6:51AM

    @jmski52 said:
    Faith in the dollar has been coasting on the strength of the post-WW2 US economy and military predominance, i.e., Bretton Woods. That predominance has been undermined since 1971 and budget deficit financing of wars and social program freebies since then are all wrecking what was established back then.

    Nobody seems to be willing to answer the simple question of why the gov't supposedly still owns 8 tons of gold but won't do an audit. So much secrecy for something that seemingly isn't that important, while the Europeans want their gold back and most other major countries are accumulating PMs in a serious way.

    Deficit financing, fiat money creation, zero reserve requirements for banks along with fractional reserve lending - it's all part of one big ponzi for the benefit of the few.

    (1) Wars are finite and end. You're on steadier ground talking about always-expanding entitlement programs.

    (2) The U.S. has about 8,200 tons of gold, not 8 tons. :)

    (3) The audit thing is irrelevant. We have the gold...we did an audit in the 1970's. Nobody has walked into Fort Knox and stolen any gold since some British nut, some dame, and a guy with a metal top hat tried it in 1963. :)

    (4) The economy's method of financing is not a Ponzi Scheme for the benefit of the few. It's Monetary Economics 101.

    You sound a little like the goldbugs of the 1970's -- Jim Dines and Howard Ruff come to mind -- warning of a pending apocalpyse. They made a nice living off it -- their supporters didn't really do as well after 1980. :)

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