Why WAR is silly.

Goldenage

Jimmie Foxx Red Sox

Better OBP than Mickey Mantle
Better OPS than Mantle
Twenty points higher batting average.
Same amount of home runs.

Yet Mantle’s WAR is 20 points higher than Foxx.

WAR is silly.

Foxx played 1B and caught more balls, and scooped more balls out of the dirt than Mantle did every night.

WAR is silly.

Goldenage

Manny Ramirez

More home runs than Mantle
Higher OPS
Higher batting average
OBP is just lower, not by much

Manny’s WAR is 40 points lower
than Mantle.

WAR is not only silly, it’s a joke. Lol.

💁‍♂️

Goldenage

They need to add the letter T to the
end of WAR, because that’s what it is

Brick

WAR. What is it good for? Absolutely nothing.

perkdog

I never liked Geek Stats

daltex

Yes. Perhaps anyone who has actually seen a baseball game understands that those comparisons make no sense. It's like saying that Juan Marichal was better in 1968 than Lefty Grove was in 1936 because he was 26-9 with a 2.43 ERA and Grove was 17-12 with a 2.81 ERA.

Zeke Bonura was better in 1934 than Carl Yastrzemski in 1968. .302 to .301 BA, .925 to .922 OPS. but 27 to 23 home runs!

BTW, this is the first time I've ever heard of a 1B being more defensively valuable than a CF, even an above average 1B like Foxx and a considerably below average CF like Mantle.

JoeBanzai

@daltex said:

BTW, this is the first time I've ever heard of a 1B being more defensively valuable than a CF, even an above average 1B like Foxx and a considerably below average CF like Mantle.

>
>
You might try to play a game without a center fielder, but you wouldn't have a chance without a first baseman! 😁

1948_Swell_Robinson

@JoeBanzai said:

@daltex said:

BTW, this is the first time I've ever heard of a 1B being more defensively valuable than a CF, even an above average 1B like Foxx and a considerably below average CF like Mantle.

>
>
You might try to play a game without a center fielder, but you wouldn't have a chance without a first baseman! 😁

I know this is said in jest, but I agree that 1B are underrated in their abilities. Not at this extreme of course, but the advanced metrics give them almost the same value as a DH, which is equally as extreme IMO.

Tabe

@1948_Swell_Robinson said:

I know this is said in jest, but I agree that 1B are underrated in their abilities. Not at this extreme of course, but the advanced metrics give them almost the same value as a DH, which is equally as extreme IMO.

That's because 1B is, by far, the easiest position. Only the outlier guys like Keith Hernandez and John Olerud provide much value.

1951WheatiesPremium

WAR is one evaluation tool in the tool kit. If you use only one tool to evaluate players of any sport, you’ll draw lots of bad conclusions. Look at how many NFL teams overvalue the combine and downplay the significance of on field play when it comes to drafting players and how that tends to work out.

Jimmy Foxx is a criminally underrated baseball player, for sure, and Manny Ramirez failed enough tests to be a sweat hog in Mr. Kotter’s class so let’s not waste too much time there.

I think Foxx and Mantle is a pretty fair comparison (Mantle comes out ahead) whereas Ramirez does not belong in the discussion and is probably better compared to Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Alex Rodriguez, Rafael Palmiero, Sammy Sosa and other players of that ilk.

1951WheatiesPremium

Here’s an original photograph of the Mick at the height of his powers in the Summer of 1957…

1948_Swell_Robinson

@Tabe said:

@1948_Swell_Robinson said:

I know this is said in jest, but I agree that 1B are underrated in their abilities. Not at this extreme of course, but the advanced metrics give them almost the same value as a DH, which is equally as extreme IMO.

That's because 1B is, by far, the easiest position. Only the outlier guys like Keith Hernandez and John Olerud provide much value.

That is the common perception, but only because they don't know how to measure them. I could say the same for second base. Every guy in AAA that plays second base can walk right in and play second base in MLB and there wouldn't be much difference defensively. Even AA could.

Why is fielding a hard ground ball at first base any easier than fielding one at third base? Yes, 3B has to throw it so it is harder overall, but it is still just as hard fielding the ground ball at first. Yet they get ZERO credit in the metrics for any ground ball fielding ability at 1B. They should be getting at least half the credit a third basemen gets for fielding a ground ball.

Why is it assumed that anyone can play first base?? Tall guys have an immediate advantage playing 1B over any other smaller guy, which leads to the skill that metrics never measure for a 1B; their stretch and pick ability.

I'm not sure diminutive guys like Glenn Hubbard or Joe Morgan could stretch and pick and save as many throws as Mark McGwire could at first base, and McGwire isn't considered a mobile guy. McGwire simply had a longer reach and he did have an ability to pick the ball. I'm not saying McGwire could play second base, but it is not automatic to think that Hubbard could play first base anywhere near as effective as McGwire. And there are more than ample defensive replacements to play second base, so that isn't a reason either.

Playing LF is easier than 1B IMO, and maybe even RF is easier....oh wow, the ball slices a lot in RF...big deal, then that means 1B is fielding those same slicing three hop ground balls, and then the monster pull shots by the left handed batters.

Second base is the position that is most overrated defensively. 90% of their throws are made from less than 60 feet away. They just have to catch the ground ball(kinda like the first baseman), but only with a little more ground to cover(but less hot shots to field). Yes, 2B is harder to play then 1B, but 2B is overrated while 1B is underrated.

craig44

@1948_Swell_Robinson said:

@Tabe said:

@1948_Swell_Robinson said:

I know this is said in jest, but I agree that 1B are underrated in their abilities. Not at this extreme of course, but the advanced metrics give them almost the same value as a DH, which is equally as extreme IMO.

That's because 1B is, by far, the easiest position. Only the outlier guys like Keith Hernandez and John Olerud provide much value.

That is the common perception, but only because they don't know how to measure them. I could say the same for second base. Every guy in AAA that plays second base can walk right in and play second base in MLB and there wouldn't be much difference defensively. Even AA could.

Why is fielding a hard ground ball at first base any easier than fielding one at third base? Yes, 3B has to throw it so it is harder overall, but it is still just as hard fielding the ground ball at first. Yet they get ZERO credit in the metrics for any ground ball fielding ability at 1B. They should be getting at least half the credit a third basemen gets for fielding a ground ball.

Why is it assumed that anyone can play first base?? Tall guys have an immediate advantage playing 1B over any other smaller guy, which leads to the skill that metrics never measure for a 1B; their stretch and pick ability.

I'm not sure diminutive guys like Glenn Hubbard or Joe Morgan could stretch and pick and save as many throws as Mark McGwire could at first base, and McGwire isn't considered a mobile guy. McGwire simply had a longer reach and he did have an ability to pick the ball. I'm not saying McGwire could play second base, but it is not automatic to think that Hubbard could play first base anywhere near as effective as McGwire. And there are more than ample defensive replacements to play second base, so that isn't a reason either.

Playing LF is easier than 1B IMO, and maybe even RF is easier....oh wow, the ball slices a lot in RF...big deal, then that means 1B is fielding those same slicing three hop ground balls, and then the monster pull shots by the left handed batters.

Second base is the position that is most overrated defensively. 90% of their throws are made from less than 60 feet away. They just have to catch the ground ball(kinda like the first baseman), but only with a little more ground to cover(but less hot shots to field). Yes, 2B is harder to play then 1B, but 2B is overrated while 1B is underrated.

I agree with your assessment on positional adjustment regarding 1b. it is not a popular opinion, but i agree. I think sometimes people listen to the same things over and over and over again and after a while it becomes truth.

I would also agree that a sure handed 1b with good footwork is more valuable than a lf or rf. 1b will see MUCH more action, a corner outfielder will have what, 2-6 opportunities for PO a game. the rest of the time they are waiting to field singles etc.

JoeBanzai

The throws to first are often pretty bad.

Tabe

@1948_Swell_Robinson said:

Why is fielding a hard ground ball at first base any easier than fielding one at third base?

Because the 1B is farther away from the hitter. 3B always play more shallow.

Why is it assumed that anyone can play first base??

Because they can? Yes, it's better to be taller but...... guys like Ryan Howard and Miguel Cabrera played 1B while having less range than Michelangelo's David.

I'm not sure diminutive guys like Glenn Hubbard or Joe Morgan could stretch and pick and save as many throws as Mark McGwire could at first base, and McGwire isn't considered a mobile guy.

Completely agree. It's an overlooked skill. John Olerud saved more errors on throws than probably any 1B ever.

McGwire simply had a longer reach and he did have an ability to pick the ball. I'm not saying McGwire could play second base, but it is not automatic to think that Hubbard could play first base anywhere near as effective as McGwire.

The lower reach would be offset by the significantly better ability to pick low throws.

Playing LF is easier than 1B IMO

Nope. Gotta be able to run and throw, two things not needed at 1Bm

Second base is the position that is most overrated defensively. 90% of their throws are made from less than 60 feet away. They just have to catch the ground ball(kinda like the first baseman), but only with a little more ground to cover(but less hot shots to field).

2B covers way more ground than 1B and has to turn double plays.

Terryoyo2

i thought you just meant war in general. yeah like why are we still doing that whole war thing

Goldenage

@Terryoyo2 said:
i thought you just meant war in general. yeah like why are we still doing that whole war thing