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What would you guys guesstimate the odds of getting a silver dime/quarter in a roll are? Plus...

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  • EstilEstil Posts: 7,059 ✭✭✭✭

    @CoinHoarder said:

    But if searching rolls is enjoyable for you, that's great! Just not my cup of tea.

    Happy hunting! :)

    Well there's a whole thread devoted to just CRHing, is there not? And I do still have a 2009-P nickel and three 2010-12 National Parks quarters to find.

    Still it would be so super duper swell if I could afford to get more silver, like the ones in my below wishlist and perhaps a "starter set" of Franklin halves.

    WISHLIST
    D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
    Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
    74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
    73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
    95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,463 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My dad during his retirement years, early 1990's bought a roll of dimes for the pay phone at some camper site. Half the roll were Mercury dimes.

    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • element159element159 Posts: 521 ✭✭✭

    If you could estimate the fraction of silver coins in circulation, you could make a guess.
    If there are, say, s silver quarters in circulation now, and c clad quarters, then the fraction of silver is f = s / (s + c).
    This fraction is small, and if the silver was randomly distributed amongst all the coinage, then the chance a 40-quarter roll has a silver is 40*f.

    In practice, your chance will be worse. The silver is not actually quite randomly arranged, or there would be no full rolls of silver, i.e. pre-1964 hoards, but there are. So i.e. those full rolls by random chance ought to seed 40 rolls with one silver each, giving you 40 rolls to find, but instead there is just one. So your per-coin average does not change, but your per-roll average gets worse. That is surely hard to calculate, but the 40*f chance is a pretty good upper bound on your chances.

    So now you just need to figure out s and c.

    :)

  • GiveMeProofGiveMeProof Posts: 623 ✭✭✭✭

    @cladking Please explain: type h '72-D's

  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,668 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @GiveMeProof said:
    @cladking Please explain: type h '72-D's

    I was going to look them up but short answer is that less than 1% of '72-D quarters had a distinctly different reverse. The Pick Up Point is the "E" and "S" in "STATES" is a little further apart. This same (or similar) reverse appears on other clad dates and in every case is quite scarce in BU condition because people simply didn't save or collect coins made after 1964.

    Even today many roll searchers are looking only for pre-'65 coins, "all" of which have been removed and then rereleased into circulation.

    There aren't a great number of BU '72-D quarters because of loss and degradation but the vast majority come from mint sets and the type H does not appear in mint sets at all.

    Tempus fugit.
  • Joe_360Joe_360 Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Let's forget about the odds, the %, the calculations for a minute...

    I have built a relationship with many of the bank tellers, meaning, they know me, they smile, and I smile back. We exchange pleasantries while we trade rolls... They always tell me when the next coin shipment will come in. I tell them the treasures that I found...

    Roll hunting I do at home, while my wife put on recorded 48 hours mysteries or movies. I tell my family when I find a W, a S, or the holy grail silver. I restarted quarter roll hunting in April when I realized that W's were still commanding a nice return... With what I earn from W sales, I reinvest and buy silver...

    Since that restart, I have found 6 silver quarters, 6 to add to my collection, 6 times in better than none...

    The odds are that coin roll hunting keeps me enjoying simple things that my parents passed on to me, I stay at home, enjoying family, and enjoying my hobby that was passed to me... Priceless

    "I got one more silver dollar..."

  • olympicsosolympicsos Posts: 785 ✭✭✭✭

    @cladking said:

    @1630Boston said:

    Which means if it was theoretically possible to do, you could throw EVERY 1932-1964 quarter ever made for circulation (32 years worth of quarters) into a pot........ Then throw every 1965 to 1967 quarter (3 years) ever made into the same pot and mix it all up. Now, you get to pick a quarter out, blind folded. The chances of picking out a silver quarter would be LESS THAN 50%!! That's just having the 65s through 67s mixed in! You would have a 48% chance of picking a silver quarter out of the pile.

    Of course by the time they made the 1967 quarters a lot of the old silver coins had been lost or pulled out of circulation by collectors. Today the numbers are very different. About 65% of the old silver quarters still survive but only 40% of the '65 to '67 and they are going fast.

    This leaves 2.5 billion silver and only 1.6 billion clads.

    The question really is academic anyway since every single silver quarter that was ever made was removed from circulation by 1972. Certainly there were still a very very few that had sat in old coffee cans since 1964 and found their way back into circulation but almost every silver quarter plucked from circulation since the early '70's had been removed from circulation but found its way back into circulation where it was quickly found and removed. Remember these can't circulate freely even if there weren't people removing them because all the machines reject them; even CoinStar. As proof just look at a handful of old silver found in circulation; despite wearing much less well than clad they are almost invariably in high grade. They almost all look just like they did in 1964 when people began pulling them from circulation.

    Your odds of finding silver in circulation is an academic question as well since some counting houses remove them or most of the suppliers of coin to the counting house remove them. At the same time though quarters that flow into a laundry are far more likely to contain silver because people have to look around the house to find enough coins. Some sources are rich in silver and others have virtually no chance of having silver. Overall, I'd estimate the total number on average to be one silver quarter per four boxes; 8000 coins. But that quarter you find will be in the same condition it was in 1964.

    There are far more dimes in circulation. Half dollars don't circulate but these have the highest incidence of silver (mostly 40%). War nickels are also fairly "common" but this is caused chiefly by the fact that once one gets back into circulation it can stay there for weeks because many people don't recognize it as silver.

    For many years I've found it fascinating that collectors search rolls for old coins. I did this extensively before n1964 and it's why I hated the date freezes and the Transition. It ruined every denomination in change and all the scarcities disappeared in their entirety by 1970. The new coins were made in staggering numbers and lacked anything that might be considered "quality control". I couldn't imagine collecting them or searching change ever again so a huge part of my collecting enjoyment was I believed, permanently eradicated. As if everything done during the Transition weren't bad enough the mint and Fed lost pallets of old coins in the back of every warehouse. It was not unusual to get 1965 BU dime rolls in 1972 at the banks. But that year I saw an article that said they were going to start rotating their coin stocks and I knew all the coins would begin wearing out evenly so I took a far closer look at circulating coins once more. I quickly found that even the scarcest moderns just accumulated in circulation because people didn't pull them out like VF '21-S buffalos or a 1962 Washington quarter. I never imagined half a century later the coins still accumulate in circulation but now they are degraded and most of them are permanently lost to the ravages of time.

    Today it is easier to find a nice AU silver quarter in circulation than any AU clad quarter made before 1974!!!!

    You can go into any coin shop and buy rolls of nice BU silver quarters but virtually no coin shop will have any rolls of eagle reverse clad quarters of any date.

    People always told me it didn't matter how scarce how scarce BU clad rolls were because collectors could always find coins in circulation. But no one has noticed that finding coins like the 1971(P) dimes in circulation in any condition is becoming highly problematical. If you did find one it will be nearly worn out and there's a 80% chance it would be a cull. You not only won't find nice XF '71 dimes at the coin shops you still won't find them into the future because people didn't fill folders or albums with them.

    There's only one single way to stop dealers from having so many "sold out" listings in moderns and this means higher prices. There are numerous moderns that are typically "sold out" and they just stay that way. There is almost no wholesale market for most of these because dealers get most of their supply from mint sets and these as well are getting tougher. I don't foresee dealers paying retail prices to stock something like a 1970 sm dt mint set. These can retail over $100 now days so anything priced near ask tends to disappear and sellers can't restock. I think we may see more moderns selling at retail because of the lack of any sort of wholesale market. This will force a wholesale market but priming this pump will consume much of the supply.

    Now the few surviving mint sets that supply the anemic demand for moderns are mostly tarnished. So far this has largely served just to squelch the demand but I wager going forward collectors are going to be less easily dissuaded. Much of the demand is from younger and less experienced collectors and these are both temporary conditions.

    The coins in circulation today are far older than the coins that were circulating when I started collecting buffalo nickels from pocket change in 1957. At that time very few nickels older than 30 years even had a date, Even the dateless raised ground buffalo wasn't as old as a 1965 today. Today it is still routine to find 1965 nickels though they will be heavily worn or 1955 nickels in nice choice F condition!! Go figure!

    This is by design. The government wanted clad coins to be workhorses and that they were. They were purposely made to be so unattractive that collectors collectively let them go. Honestly I don't blame them since there are plenty of UNC 1946-1964 dimes out there, plenty of UNC 1932-1964 Quarters out there and plenty of state/atb/women quarters in UNC out there.

  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,668 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @olympicsos said:

    @cladking said:

    @1630Boston said:

    Which means if it was theoretically possible to do, you could throw EVERY 1932-1964 quarter ever made for circulation (32 years worth of quarters) into a pot........ Then throw every 1965 to 1967 quarter (3 years) ever made into the same pot and mix it all up. Now, you get to pick a quarter out, blind folded. The chances of picking out a silver quarter would be LESS THAN 50%!! That's just having the 65s through 67s mixed in! You would have a 48% chance of picking a silver quarter out of the pile.

    Of course by the time they made the 1967 quarters a lot of the old silver coins had been lost or pulled out of circulation by collectors. Today the numbers are very different. About 65% of the old silver quarters still survive but only 40% of the '65 to '67 and they are going fast.

    This leaves 2.5 billion silver and only 1.6 billion clads.

    The question really is academic anyway since every single silver quarter that was ever made was removed from circulation by 1972. Certainly there were still a very very few that had sat in old coffee cans since 1964 and found their way back into circulation but almost every silver quarter plucked from circulation since the early '70's had been removed from circulation but found its way back into circulation where it was quickly found and removed. Remember these can't circulate freely even if there weren't people removing them because all the machines reject them; even CoinStar. As proof just look at a handful of old silver found in circulation; despite wearing much less well than clad they are almost invariably in high grade. They almost all look just like they did in 1964 when people began pulling them from circulation.

    Your odds of finding silver in circulation is an academic question as well since some counting houses remove them or most of the suppliers of coin to the counting house remove them. At the same time though quarters that flow into a laundry are far more likely to contain silver because people have to look around the house to find enough coins. Some sources are rich in silver and others have virtually no chance of having silver. Overall, I'd estimate the total number on average to be one silver quarter per four boxes; 8000 coins. But that quarter you find will be in the same condition it was in 1964.

    There are far more dimes in circulation. Half dollars don't circulate but these have the highest incidence of silver (mostly 40%). War nickels are also fairly "common" but this is caused chiefly by the fact that once one gets back into circulation it can stay there for weeks because many people don't recognize it as silver.

    For many years I've found it fascinating that collectors search rolls for old coins. I did this extensively before n1964 and it's why I hated the date freezes and the Transition. It ruined every denomination in change and all the scarcities disappeared in their entirety by 1970. The new coins were made in staggering numbers and lacked anything that might be considered "quality control". I couldn't imagine collecting them or searching change ever again so a huge part of my collecting enjoyment was I believed, permanently eradicated. As if everything done during the Transition weren't bad enough the mint and Fed lost pallets of old coins in the back of every warehouse. It was not unusual to get 1965 BU dime rolls in 1972 at the banks. But that year I saw an article that said they were going to start rotating their coin stocks and I knew all the coins would begin wearing out evenly so I took a far closer look at circulating coins once more. I quickly found that even the scarcest moderns just accumulated in circulation because people didn't pull them out like VF '21-S buffalos or a 1962 Washington quarter. I never imagined half a century later the coins still accumulate in circulation but now they are degraded and most of them are permanently lost to the ravages of time.

    Today it is easier to find a nice AU silver quarter in circulation than any AU clad quarter made before 1974!!!!

    You can go into any coin shop and buy rolls of nice BU silver quarters but virtually no coin shop will have any rolls of eagle reverse clad quarters of any date.

    People always told me it didn't matter how scarce how scarce BU clad rolls were because collectors could always find coins in circulation. But no one has noticed that finding coins like the 1971(P) dimes in circulation in any condition is becoming highly problematical. If you did find one it will be nearly worn out and there's a 80% chance it would be a cull. You not only won't find nice XF '71 dimes at the coin shops you still won't find them into the future because people didn't fill folders or albums with them.

    There's only one single way to stop dealers from having so many "sold out" listings in moderns and this means higher prices. There are numerous moderns that are typically "sold out" and they just stay that way. There is almost no wholesale market for most of these because dealers get most of their supply from mint sets and these as well are getting tougher. I don't foresee dealers paying retail prices to stock something like a 1970 sm dt mint set. These can retail over $100 now days so anything priced near ask tends to disappear and sellers can't restock. I think we may see more moderns selling at retail because of the lack of any sort of wholesale market. This will force a wholesale market but priming this pump will consume much of the supply.

    Now the few surviving mint sets that supply the anemic demand for moderns are mostly tarnished. So far this has largely served just to squelch the demand but I wager going forward collectors are going to be less easily dissuaded. Much of the demand is from younger and less experienced collectors and these are both temporary conditions.

    The coins in circulation today are far older than the coins that were circulating when I started collecting buffalo nickels from pocket change in 1957. At that time very few nickels older than 30 years even had a date, Even the dateless raised ground buffalo wasn't as old as a 1965 today. Today it is still routine to find 1965 nickels though they will be heavily worn or 1955 nickels in nice choice F condition!! Go figure!

    This is by design. The government wanted clad coins to be workhorses and that they were. They were purposely made to be so unattractive that collectors collectively let them go. Honestly I don't blame them since there are plenty of UNC 1946-1964 dimes out there, plenty of UNC 1932-1964 Quarters out there and plenty of state/atb/women quarters in UNC out there.

    I've often toyed with the idea that the abysmal quality of early clad was wholly intentional and one of many steps the mint and FED, and federal government took to discourage coin collecting. It likely was at least in the back of their minds but during these early years the mint was stressed to make enough coin to replace the disappearing silver and to ease the nationwide coin shortage. The "coin shortage" was really more a smokescreen to hide the simple fact that inflation was pushing up silver prices as evidenced by the fact that cent and nickel production declined during these years.

    Almost every clad in these early years had severe deficiencies that would not have been tolerated in earlier years. Dies were used well past their life and they were set to create weak strikes from the beginning in order to strike more coin. The mint's die shop was stressed by the number of dies needed and the entire mint was working long hours.

    A lot of the first clad released in November 1965 was actually of high quality. By the middle of '66 one didn't see much good stuff and then when they finally lifted the date freeze and began 1966 coinage it was even worse. While average quality improved through 1976 the frequency of Gems did not. Each year there were fewer and fewer coins struck by worn out dies but the other problems still persisted.

    Another general improvement began with the states coins in 1999.

    The circulating '76 bicentennial coins were pretty good though Gems again elusive.

    It's interesting that if current trends persist there there will be fewer of some of the clad dates in existence as there are BU examples of even some the better silver dates. This will apply to mint sets with very low survival rates like the '69 dime. This date is becoming very elusive in circulation and people don't even notice.

    Tempus fugit.
  • GiveMeProofGiveMeProof Posts: 623 ✭✭✭✭

    @cladking said:

    @GiveMeProof said:
    @cladking Please explain: type h '72-D's

    I was going to look them up but short answer is that less than 1% of '72-D quarters had a distinctly different reverse. The Pick Up Point is the "E" and "S" in "STATES" is a little further apart. This same (or similar) reverse appears on other clad dates and in every case is quite scarce in BU condition because people simply didn't save or collect coins made after 1964.

    Even today many roll searchers are looking only for pre-'65 coins, "all" of which have been removed and then rereleased into circulation.

    There aren't a great number of BU '72-D quarters because of loss and degradation but the vast majority come from mint sets and the type H does not appear in mint sets at all.

    Thank you @cladking. Much appreciated.

  • vplite99vplite99 Posts: 1,289 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Maywood said:
    Somewhere between slim and none.

    "And Slim don't work here no more." is the way I've heard it. For me the value of my time, which is not that high, makes roll searching unprofitable.

    Vplite99
  • MilesWaitsMilesWaits Posts: 5,372 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Now riding the swell in PM's and surf.
  • 1630Boston1630Boston Posts: 13,784 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MilesWaits said:

    A picture is worth a 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 words ! :D
    .
    that's 1x10^24 words :#

    Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb

    Bad transactions with : nobody to date

  • Joe_360Joe_360 Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MilesWaits said:

    I have to start playing the lottery, as I have found 6 silver quarters since April.... B)

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @vplite99 said:
    For me the value of my time, which is not that high, makes roll searching unprofitable.

    I used to check the return slot of payphones when I was a kid but I don't even look in the reject basket when I pass a Coinstar machine these days.

    But then, that's just me...

  • 1630Boston1630Boston Posts: 13,784 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    @vplite99 said:
    For me the value of my time, which is not that high, makes roll searching unprofitable.

    I used to check the return slot of payphones when I was a kid but I don't even look in the reject basket when I pass a Coinstar machine these days.

    But then, that's just me...

    you should start, pays off more than pay phones :D

    Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb

    Bad transactions with : nobody to date

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1630Boston said:
    you should start, pays off more than pay phones :D

    When I was a kid, an extra dime now and then was a big deal. These days- the odd silver quarter, not so much.

  • 1630Boston1630Boston Posts: 13,784 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2022 4:26PM

    @MasonG said:

    @1630Boston said:
    you should start, pays off more than pay phones :D

    When I was a kid, an extra dime now and then was a big deal. These days- the odd silver quarter, not so much.

    Yes, when I was a youth, in the Boston suburb, 10 cents could get me a ride on the MBTA,
    a Bus down Mass Ave, to the Redline subway at Harvard Square, to the Greenline trolley at Park Street, to Kenmore Square, to Fenway Park.............and home again.
    boston
    .
    .

    Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb

    Bad transactions with : nobody to date

  • Glen2022Glen2022 Posts: 936 ✭✭✭✭

    @OAKSTAR said:
    I can "GUARANTEE" you only one thing! And you can take this to the bank! ;) Your (our) odds will dramatically increase 100% by going out searching and hitting banks rather then sitting here talking and reading about it. 😂 🤣 👍🏻

    WRONG!!! I thought that the only things that are guaranteed are death and taxes!!! Now there is a third thing!!!!

  • Joe_360Joe_360 Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Glen2022 said:

    @OAKSTAR said:
    I can "GUARANTEE" you only one thing! And you can take this to the bank! ;) Your (our) odds will dramatically increase 100% by going out searching and hitting banks rather then sitting here talking and reading about it. 😂 🤣 👍🏻

    WRONG!!! I thought that the only things that are guaranteed are death and taxes!!! Now there is a third thing!!!!

    No silver for you.... "No tax on free silver"

  • Joe_360Joe_360 Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Right now, I have $38.34 on eBay for 3 quarters, that 75 cents you smart guys do the math....

    There's silver in those hills...

  • EstilEstil Posts: 7,059 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2022 5:39PM

    @Glen2022 said:

    @OAKSTAR said:
    I can "GUARANTEE" you only one thing! And you can take this to the bank! ;) Your (our) odds will dramatically increase 100% by going out searching and hitting banks rather then sitting here talking and reading about it. 😂 🤣 👍🏻

    WRONG!!! I thought that the only things that are guaranteed are death and taxes!!! Now there is a third thing!!!!

    https://peanuts.fandom.com/wiki/November_1973_comic_strips?file=November_11_1973.jpg

    WISHLIST
    D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
    Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
    74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
    73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
    95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
  • Glen2022Glen2022 Posts: 936 ✭✭✭✭

    @Estil said:

    @Glen2022 said:

    @OAKSTAR said:
    I can "GUARANTEE" you only one thing! And you can take this to the bank! ;) Your (our) odds will dramatically increase 100% by going out searching and hitting banks rather then sitting here talking and reading about it. 😂 🤣 👍🏻

    WRONG!!! I thought that the only things that are guaranteed are death and taxes!!! Now there is a third thing!!!!

    https://peanuts.fandom.com/wiki/November_1973_comic_strips?file=November_11_1973.jpg

    My mistake, thanks for the correction. Now there are four!!!

  • EstilEstil Posts: 7,059 ✭✭✭✭

    @Glen2022 said:

    My mistake, thanks for the correction. Now there are four!!!

    The thing is though, Charlie Brown DID in fact kick the football...

    https://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/1956/09/12

    WISHLIST
    D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
    Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
    74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
    73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
    95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
  • EstilEstil Posts: 7,059 ✭✭✭✭

    @MilesWaits said:

    Most chilling of all, you are statistically far more likely to get KILLED on the way to or from buying a lottery ticket than winning a big jackpot!

    WISHLIST
    D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
    Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
    74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
    73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
    95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
  • KAJ1KAJ1 Posts: 773 ✭✭✭

    Go to CoinStar for your circulated silver.
    I still find war Nickels once in awhile, in change.

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