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Guess the Date of the Barber Half...

TomBTomB Posts: 20,733 ✭✭✭✭✭

Here's a guess-the-date with a reverse image that shouldn't be all that hard for a lot of the folks on the boards. I think the coin is cool and the variety is cool and that it is one easily seen and identified by most folks. As far as I am concerned, it is all good to post your guess within the thread as well as to post the reason, if any, for the guess. In this way perhaps we can have some fun looking at a nice coin and sharing information with others. The reverse image should be fairly large and well-lit so that the important features are evident.

Here goes-

Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

image

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    airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 21,910 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My logic may be a bit fuzzy, but I'm guessing 1893

    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
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    1630Boston1630Boston Posts: 13,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1892/1893 ?
    FS-801 ?

    Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb

    Bad transactions with : nobody to date

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    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I love these kinds of challenges, but Barber Halves are an area that I'm not too familiar with... :(

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    FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,854 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1892 FS-801 TDR.

    I'll guess that it grades MS65. It's really attractive!

    Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.

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    TomBTomB Posts: 20,733 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'll post more detailed images now since it has been guessed so quickly. The TDR is most easily seen, in my opinion, on the letters around the rim and the stars. It is really fairly easy to see in-hand and surprises me that PCGS has certified so few over the years. I'd imagine there are a number that can be cherrypicked out of unattributed holders as well as raw pieces, but I also must guess that few survived the 130-years since they were issued.

    It is an 1892 TDR FS-801

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TomB said:
    It is really fairly easy to see in-hand and surprises me that PCGS has certified so few over the years.

    .
    while the pcgs price guide shows a modicum of premium in a couple grades, in ms65, you actually lose $100 attributing the coin, so that probably doesn't help towards more being attributed. (if they are out there) ;)

    another question is, "why so little interest/value for a neat variety in a series with so few attributable at the TPGs." seems a lil sus to me.

    imho, the barber series is like an egg in serious need of cracking and i've thought this for a long time.

    the series before and after have plenty, especially the former, in various denominations.

    what is the seminal (highly influential in an original way; constituting or providing a basis for further development) work for barber coinage and die varieties? if any?

    btw, very nice coin. :+1:

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,989 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Beautiful coin and triple die variety! Awesome pic as well!!

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    TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2022 4:24PM

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:

    @TomB said:
    It is really fairly easy to see in-hand and surprises me that PCGS has certified so few over the years.

    .

    what is the seminal (highly influential in an original way; constituting or providing a basis for further development) work for barber coinage and die varieties? if any?

    btw, very nice coin. :+1:

    Huh? Sorry, you lost me there

    Frank

    BHNC #203

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Treashunt said:
    Huh? Sorry, you lost me there

    .
    i'm wondering if anyone has wrote an at least somewhat modern authoritative work on barber coinage that also includes varieties/marriages or whatever. considering the following, money and education of those that collect, SURELY there is some book to knock our socks off?

    i see it for seated, vams, various bust coinage, silver and gold, copper etc. does barber coinage exist in some parallel dimension or perhaps the twilight zone where none are up for the challenge? is there no wiki, site, collaborative effort to fill, at least what seems to me, this MUCH desired and needed void?

    you know, something like that. ;)

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    TomBTomB Posts: 20,733 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:

    @TomB said:
    It is really fairly easy to see in-hand and surprises me that PCGS has certified so few over the years.

    .
    while the pcgs price guide shows a modicum of premium in a couple grades, in ms65, you actually lose $100 attributing the coin, so that probably doesn't help towards more being attributed. (if they are out there) ;)

    another question is, "why so little interest/value for a neat variety in a series with so few attributable at the TPGs." seems a lil sus to me.

    imho, the barber series is like an egg in serious need of cracking and i've thought this for a long time.

    the series before and after have plenty, especially the former, in various denominations.

    what is the seminal (highly influential in an original way; constituting or providing a basis for further development) work for barber coinage and die varieties? if any?

    btw, very nice coin. :+1:

    I had also noticed that the PCGS guide lists the TDR as $100 less in MS65 and attribute this to a lack of robust sales data, lack of hyper-interest in the broader market and lack of diligence by PCGS. That does not worry me; those folks who value an obvious die variety such as this will be drawn to it and those that value attractive, original toning will be drawn to this coin.

    The generally recognized reference work for the series is The Complete Guide To Barber Halves by David Lawrence (Feigenbaum), but this was originally published in 1991 (I've had this book for three-plus decades! Holy Cow!) and has never been surpassed. That edition lists the 1892 TDR and has quality photos of the pick-up points. It notes that Beistle first mentioned the 1892 TDR in 1929 in his Half Dollar Die Varieties, which I also own (two copies!) so this has been known for quite a while.

    The DL book is fabulous, but likely near impossible to find these days. It also goes through a history of the design development, rarity indices, values over time, changes in hub design during the life of the series and other tidbits. Of course, I would imagine the Cherrypicker's Guide (whatever edition they are on at this point) would have examples listed and for real-time information or discussion one might want to check out the Barber Coin Collectors Society (BCCS). I've been a member of that for years and have written articles for their journal.

    http://www.barbercoins.org

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TomB said:
    The DL book is fabulous, but likely near impossible to find these days. It also goes through a history of the design development, rarity indices, values over time, changes in hub design during the life of the series and other tidbits. Of course, I would imagine the Cherrypicker's Guide (whatever edition they are on at this point) would have examples listed and for real-time information or discussion one might want to check out the Barber Coin Collectors Society (BCCS). I've been a member of that for years and have written articles for their journal.

    http://www.barbercoins.org

    .
    thank you for that great post. also to confirm the most up-to-date work is decades old, so that when i speak about it now, i can speak with confidence when trying to help others.

    i'm glad the literature that is used is so great but (without sounding harsh) really cuts people off at the knees not having been updated to include information that must be 10x what it was then (populations, CC, varieties, authentication, accuracy, mm positions etc), despite how good the authors works are. i do (obviously) recognize DL and his many? books.

    simply too much has changed (better/worse) in the past decades to leave such a wonderful series un-updated. i personally have appreciated the mm placement (which is actually die/marriage study) threads/comments you and some others have started/participated in and to not have some of that stuff included into an updated works, is imo, a real tragedy because i know you and at least several others, even if just consultants, would greatly improve such works.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow, that's a beautiful coin! The tripling is quite stunning -- particularly in the second T of STATES.

    Quick question: am I hallucinating, or are their phantom letters above the words "HALF DOLLAR"? It almost looks like a clashed die, but I'm not sure what it would have clashed against.

    Higashiyama
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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Higashiyama said:
    Wow, that's a beautiful coin! The tripling is quite stunning -- particularly in the second T of STATES.

    Quick question: am I hallucinating, or are their phantom letters above the words "HALF DOLLAR"? It almost looks like a clashed die, but I'm not sure what it would have clashed against.

    if you look at an overlay, you can get and idea of what you may see. of course dies clash rotated too.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LanceNewmanOCC -- sorry, I'm struggling a bit, because it almost seems rotated and twisted, which is unlikely! Help me with this -- what is the prominent remnant above the H in half? I feel like I'm seeing some of Miss Liberty's cap between the dot and the U.

    Higashiyama
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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Higashiyama said:
    @LanceNewmanOCC -- sorry, I'm struggling a bit, because it almost seems rotated and twisted, which is unlikely! Help me with this -- what is the prominent remnant above the H in half? I feel like I'm seeing some of Miss Liberty's cap between the dot and the U.

    .
    i can't help ya on this one. all i see is chatter and toning.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,462 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In coinfacts for sale now, this one is under the tdr but not indicated as such in Witter's inventory for 2500. Is it one?
    https://shop.wittercoin.com/products/1892-50c-barber-half-dollar-pcgs-ms65-cac

    The book is in the forum Resources thread and at NNP if nothing else is available.

    https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/555292

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

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    TomBTomB Posts: 20,733 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, the one being sold by Witter appears to be an unattributed TDR.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,254 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The PUP I've always used is the star under T being misshapen.

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

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    TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:

    @Treashunt said:
    Huh? Sorry, you lost me there

    .
    i'm wondering if anyone has wrote an at least somewhat modern authoritative work on barber coinage that also includes varieties/marriages or whatever. considering the following, money and education of those that collect, SURELY there is some book to knock our socks off?

    i see it for seated, vams, various bust coinage, silver and gold, copper etc. does barber coinage exist in some parallel dimension or perhaps the twilight zone where none are up for the challenge? is there no wiki, site, collaborative effort to fill, at least what seems to me, this MUCH desired and needed void?

    you know, something like that. ;)

    There is an excellent series [Dimes, Quarters, and Half Dollars] by David Lawrence.

    However, it does need updating.

    Frank

    BHNC #203

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,309 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1893 FS-801 die crack in shield
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,790 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2022 1:23PM

    Wonderful coin- And I agree that it is important to share when possible. And when our host photography team is involved that adds to the convenience of sharing. There are those coins that can be sought but after if collectors seem them and appreciate them for what they are. Off hand, I have no idea what the rarity and condition rarity is for this variety.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

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